photo via sijeka @ flickr
Welcome to Harpy Seminar, a regular feature we plan to have at regular intervals, unless we get too busy to have it at regular intervals, in which case it shall appear whenever we have time and inclination for it. Each Seminar begins with a question, which we discuss amongst ourselves, and we then edit the highlights of our conversation into a post. Please feel free to join in in the comments!
On calling yourself a feminist in everyday life:
BeckySharper: I admit to taking some fiendish delight in throwing it out there and seeing what kind of response I get, especially with the mens. If I refer to myself as a feminist and I get a double-take or discomfort, well, that tells me something I should know about that person. Because if you feel threatened by feminism, you definitely won’t be comfortable being around a successful opinionated woman like me (or my family).
Pilgrim Soul: I am not reluctant to identify as a feminist per se, but you’d be shocked how often it does not really come up. I mean, contrary to popular opinion, I have yet to meet the everyday feminist who makes every social setting an opportunity to emasculate the nearest dude or “caterwaul” about patriarchy. I will on occasion smack down a dude who is, in my presence, openly displaying misogynist attitudes, but I’m not often around such men.
PhDork: Occasionally, and particularly around family members who are a bit older than me, I am reluctant. That doesn’t mean I don’t speak up, express my critique, and “out” myself, but goddamn, [the comments that tend to result] do get tiresome.
sarah.of.a.lesser.god: Attending a women’s college definitely gave me the courage to be more vocal about my feminism. I tend to rant about the patriarchy and I’m sure some of my family and friends view it as extreme, but I see it as a deeply personal issue. But it’s not something I say when I meet people. I don’t hand them a business card that says, sarah.of.a.lesser.god: Feminist since 1999.
SarahMC: In general I am openly and proudly feminist, but like you said, Michelle, it’s not something I mention when I’m introduced to people; it’s something that becomes apparent as people get to know me.
I don’t recall when I revealed myself as a feminist to my boyfriend. We’ve been together for over five years, and my feminism has definitely grown stronger in that time. But I don’t think there was ever a moment when I told him, or when he asked me. He is supportive of my feminist pursuits and that’s that.
KittenFluff: Strangely, I feel like it does come up often for me in casual conversation, in part because of my deep involvement with an all-women volunteer organization and my work as a rape crisis and domestic violence counselor. I’ve never had a problem identifying myself as a feminist, in any situation.
On deflecting tiresome responses:
PhDork: I do get tired of fielding ignorant comments. Not stuff like “But I thought feminists hate men! You’re in a relationship!” or “heh heh, you on the rag?” That crap a) I rarely hear and b) is too stupid to pay attention to. The stuff that bothers me are the ignorant, anti-male comments that I think are meant to express either a degree of sympathy, when coming from women, or a degree of hapless self-deprecation, when coming from men. Comments like “well, you know men would be lost without us!” or “we can’t help ourselves; we’re pigs/dogs/monsters!”
NO. NO. NO. THIS IS NOT WHAT FEMINISM IS. THIS IS NOT WHAT FEMINISM MEANS. THIS IS NOT WHAT FEMINISM DOES.
Because such comments are not meant as adversarial, they’re harder and more tiresome to deal with it in a way that’s constructive and helpful and alliance-building. They don’t really invite conversation and discourse, when that’s exactly what’s called for.
SarahMC: PhDork, those types of comments really bug because they reveal a real misunderstanding of the problem, and of feminism and its goals. It’s not about patting women on the head and thanking them for putting up with sexism and double-standards. It’s about erasing those things.
BeckySharper: I agree it gets tiresome to have to defend against that kind of half-praise/half-dismissal or the double-edged sword of “behind every successful man is a strong woman”. Gee, thanks, but I’m not interested in being “behind” anyone’s success but my own and it’s not my job to provide some kind of civilizing influence so men don’t act like dogs/pigs/cavemen.
That kind of crap always irritates me because it shows how society has low expectations for men, too–that they’ll be upset or emasculated or diminished if they’re not the breadwinners or they don’t “wear the pants in the family.” They’re not supposed to want equal partners with equally strong wills and needs and aspirations. To that end, I think it’s important to make sure that men are aware of feminism’s goals and that it can be a cooperative effort that benefits them as well.
PilgrimSoul: I must work in a more conservative setting than all of you. I do tend to get people who, upon learning of my feminist proclivities, want to explain to me how feminism has ruined itself by being too strident, or want me to explain why anyone would prefer Hillary over Obama, or want to know why I think all sex is rape. In short, they want me to explain – nay, defend – a whole bunch of disparate strands of thought that they themselves have dismissed out of hand as the shriekings of a bunch of single-minded harpies. (Too right!)
Unfortunately for such people, I have legendarily endless patience for talking about and discussing feminism, after a minute or so of which I tend to notice the recipient’s gaze wandering over my shoulder. There’s been a lot of talk in my presence lately about how feminism needs to learn to talk to people in a “softer voice,” so to speak, but I keep wondering what the point will be if nobody’s listening anyway.
Okay, commenters. Now you!
I don’t ever hesitate to call myself a feminist except around women who are apparently serious feminists. This is more of a politeness issue, than anything else; sometimes people from all backgrounds feel like they want a place or a situation or an idea all to themselves, and so I try and avoid stepping on peoples’ toes.
Generally, though, no problem. But, double-standards being what they are, the consequence of admitting to being a feminist is different for me. At the very worst, it just means that some people think I’m gay. So maybe all that doesn’t count.
I honestly can’t remember the exact origins of the conversation, but my being a feminist came up somehow, probably during the Obama/Clinton campaigning. His response was, “Good, everyone should be. The fact that sexism, racism and inequality exist to the degree that they do in this day and age is appalling.”
It doesn’t come up often for me, but we’re both proud feminists.
I don’t think I’ve ever had a chance to either announce or reply that yes, I am a feminist. If someone did ask me, I think I might be tempted to explain my definition of the word, rather than just signing on to the questioner’s possibly distorted idea of feminism.
Ooh I like this format. The whole feminist thing is interesting, it never used to be an issue with me in that I knew I was but it rarely came up.
However, either I’m getting strident in my old age or things are changing because increasingly, particularly when dealing with men from my home country, people say ‘oh when did you become such an awful old feminist’ to which I always reply “I am and have always been a feminist” and then we have a big argument which disintegrates into name calling. It’s a problem in Britain where I think feminism and feminist is an increasingly dirty and misused word and that saddens me.
As to my husband, he’d never say he was a feminist because he appears to be of the opinion that men can’t truly be so but he’s proud to say his wife is and actually cut off one of his friend’s after they insulted me along those terms.
Like Kivrin, I have never had the opportunity to either announce or reply that I was a feminist. However, I think if I did, my answer would be “Yes. Obviously.”
Like Pilgrim, I work in a fairly conservative setting (although I wouldn’t call it “conservative” so much as “frequently douche-y” in my case) and am often called upon to discuss it. For the most part, I don’t think they’re hearing a damn thing I say.
I’ve ‘outed’ myself as a feminist to all of my schoolmates at my religious, conservative, single-sex school. Thankfully very few people take offense and most of the teachers, nuns and all, are feminists even if they’re anti-choice. (A bit of a oxymoron, I do realize)
Our even more conservative ‘brother’ school however is where I run into conflicts. I’ve had people demand to know why </i) in the world would I want to upset the ‘natural’ order of things? I respond by pointing and laughing a little bit.
Never, but I’m pretty comfortable taking a somewhat combative role in conversations and I think the reality is that feminists must repeatedly and regularly enter confrontations about it.
I think that reason more than any other is responsible for why many women won’t identify as feminist, even if they absolutely believe in gender equality. Some folk aren’t born fighters, and they shouldn’t HAVE to be, just to get their due.
wandered over via feministing… great blog!
I’m also out and proud, but I remember discussing feminism with my boyfriend’s mom, who is laboring under some serious misunderstandings– thinking feminism denigrates SAH moms, women who want children, etc. I tried to explain that feminism is about fighting for/expanding/protecting the rights of all women, but the most I could get her to admit was maybe she is a “semi-feminist”. Sigh.
Sort of taking issue with braak’s statement that sometimes “people want an idea all to themselves”- uh, men are welcome to be feminist allies, supporters and active participants in the movement, but please understand that ceding your Dudely Authority to let women direct and decide things doesn’t mean we want feminism all to ourselves.
No, I do understand that, and am also in favor of it. But I think that if there’s anything that a chain of comments like this suggests, it’s that not everybody views feminism in exactly the same way. Consequently, there are circumstances where certain groups of people who self-identify as feminists consider that men cannot actively participate in the movement. Out of deference to that perspective, I’m sometimes hesitant to identify as such.
I’m an out feminist and would never hesitate to say so if anyone asked, but I don’t get asked often. My family is very conservative though, and think of me as a radical liberal hippie type. They tend to be very dismissive of anything I have to say about feminism, although I have made some headway in making them think twice about saying sexist remarks (they still say them but follow it up with “I probably shouldn’t say that though”- progress!).
My boyfriend is a self-identified feminist too. Thank god. I honestly can’t see myself dating a man who wasn’t.
In a word, no. Not at all. This might have more to do with the fact that, to some, I don’t fall into their generalized idea of what a Feminist looks like. Also, I really don’t care if someone is confused, scared or turned off by my considering myself a feminist.
That said, it doesn’t come up a lot. I tend to take something small, such as a dude in Home Depot explaining to me in detail what a funnel is used for (?) and before you know it, I am peppering my conversation with “gender” and “patriarchy.”
If I get into a thoughtful discussion about feminism, I generally find myself doing so with someone different than myself; older, a different race, male, gay. Because I find going on and on about it with my mostly white, female friends is a lot of preaching to the choir.
I don’t think I ever hesitate to say feministy things, caterwaul about the patriarchy, etc. But I don’t think I’ve ever been given the opportunity to call myself a feminist because nobody has ever point-blank asked. And I guess I don’t feel comfortable opening statements with, “As a feminist…”
I avoid saying that I am a feminist for two reasons: 1) as lisas said above, some of us aren’t fighters, and I’m one of those non-fighters, and 2) I think it’s easier to talk to people about feminist ideas without bringing in all of the baggage of the word itself. I have long conversations with a conservative aunt where we talk about feminist things (and agree) but I’m pretty sure she would never call herself a feminist and would treat me differently if I said I was. Maybe someday I’ll try it and see, but for now, I’d rather keep that door open.
@BeckySharper: My best friend recently dated a guy who went on and on about his job, how he’d like to be making X amount in 2 years, how ambitious he was. And that’s fine, she knew he was trying to impress her, being early on in the relationship and all. He then turned around and told her he could never date someone that makes more money than him, because he is the provider and he doesn’t want a woman’s career to get in the way of family.
My friend is an Electrical Engineer who manages 35 people and is almost finished with her Master’s. She clearly makes more money than him and when he came to that realization during their conversation, his whole demeanor changed. In the next week, he turned into this uber-competitive, arrogant blow-hard. Thankfully, she gave him the boot.
@Krushchev: What you said. The only people who ever gave me grief about describing myself as a feminist were my parents and the only reason I was even using the word is I was a kid and I had just learned it– you know how that is.
And I’ve only had one other person say “I don’t like feminists” around me; she’s a staunchly pro-life person who kind of misses the point of those of us who are advocating for choice. And you would never know it if you met her because in every other way, she’s as defiant about resisting gender roles as any of us.
I wrote something about this a while ago… I used to hesitate to say I was a feminist even when directly asked. The hairs on my neck would raise because I was scared of what people would think. Once I realized/acknowledged/confronted my reluctance to identify, it was a lot easier to get over. If someone wants to treat me poorly for that label, then I think I’m OK with spending less time with them anyways.
@thatwhatifgirl: I have a similar experience with my mom, who agrees with me on so many women’s issues. But when I told her I was launching a feminist blog, she said “like militant feminist”? The label did impede our discourse, which is just sad to me.
Sadly, I won’t even share this blog with my parents because I know they’d be totally freaked out and would not approve. No, a 26 year old does not “need” her parents’ approval but coming out as an atheist (and “pro-abortionist”) caused me enough grief, and I’m sure they know where I stand on so-called women’s issues.
SarahMC: I’m not going to tell my family about this blog, either. At least, I currently have no plans to do so. My family knows I’m a feminist, and while we don’t “discuss” it qua IT (that is: “what is feminism?” “how do you define your feminism?”,) we do talk, and whatever the topic, politics or pop culture, I make my views known in no uncertain terms.
But it makes me wonder, WHY am I not telling them? Am I hiding? Am I afraid that they’ll read something they’ll don’t like? Am I just trying to stay more-or-less anonymous on the interwebs? Am I afraid they’ll think it’s stupid or pointless and tell me to get back to my academic work? I’m not sure. It’s worth thinking through, though. Hmmm. Am I as “out” a feminist as I claim to be?
I had a conversation with my sister about this recently. I can’t remember the exact context – I think someone had asked her in a semi-hostile tone if she was a feminist. I remarked that I would have said “yes, I consider myself a feminist,” and then gone on to explain my definition of feminism, why I feel that I am one, etc. She took exception to my use of the construction “consider myself,” saying that it weakened the declaration. My intent was to distance what I mean by feminism from what the person obviously had in mind. What do you think?
I’ve identified myself as a feminist with people who do not ID that way or are hostile to it. I think it is important for some folks to see that it is about human rights and is something men can and should be on board with. I also think it can be useful to bring up some observations and comments to other men without necessarily using the F word. I know I’ve gotten some people to think about feminist concepts without labeling them as such. Like how as fathers we need to focus our attention on raising non-rapists sons rather than going overboard on protecting our daughters.
I’d be more wishy-washy with an out feminist and say I’m a supporter if asked. But this has only come up online for me. In real life it hasn’t been necessary. My actions speak for themselves.
I generally say that I “consider myself a feminist.” I’ve never had any nasty remarks about this, but I generally put it that way because it avoids being told “Well, you must hate men” or “Then why aren’t you studying X in school” or whatever. I meet my own standards, along with the dictionary definition.
Something one of you above commenters said made me think of feminism the way I think of spirituality – I can have lots of discussions about equality/faith that cover miles of ground and are engaging and productive and nonadversarial…as long as neither the other person nor I name the philosophy we’re discussing as “feminist” or *insert religion here*.
Personally I’m much more likely to fight when someone I don’t know well and am not likely to have to be around for long (i.e. not a coworker) says something awful and I can’t let it go. Then it becomes obvious I’m arguing from a feminist perspective.
I have no problem calling myself a feminist, no matter what kind of crowd is around. Being a women’s studies minor in school helped me to talk about it more openly and casually. I don’t ever mind calling myself a feminist.
And as for the responses I get, if they just aren’t getting it when I point out how wrong they are, I just cut my losses and walk away because they probably aren’t the kind of person that I want to be hanging out with anyway.
I am with my dad and three brothers right now–they’re visiting–and I showed them the blog. My dad sort of huff-laughed and then was like “Oh Becky!” Not disapproval so much as dismissal of my silly female angry-ness.
Yeah, it’s been that way for, oh, the last 33 years.
In most situations I don’t hesitate to identify myself as a feminist. However, in school situations sometimes I’m cautious about it because a lot of younger people seem to find something wrong with identifying as a feminist (there’s a lot of “I’m not a feminist, but-” statements among girls my age, sadly). Some days I find this intimidating.. I just don’t have the fight in me to explain to a bunch of 20-somethings why there is nothing wrong with being a feminist.
I think one of the comments that most drive me nuts is like smoslyn mentioned when a woman says, “I’m not a feminist or anything, but I think [X feminist ideal/goal/belief].” Almost invariably, there are men around when this happens. I usually respond with a rather tart, “Well, I’m a feminist.”
And Krushchev, all it takes is some practice. I like to throw “As a feminist…” into as much everyday conversation as I can.
“As a feminist, I’d like a tall latte, please.”
“As a feminist, I think I’m going to stay in a watch TV tonight.”
“As a feminist, yeah, I’m really going to have to ask you to get those TPS report done.”
It’s easy!
No-one ever asks me if I’m a feminist, although if asked, I’ll answer in the affirmative.
It’s been said before, but I have conversations on gender and inequality etc with my friends (usually female) without the word ever coming up. It’s as if there was some kind of stigma attached to it.
It’s a different ballgame here in Europe, I think.
I love throwing it out there that I’m a feminist and seeing how people react. If they react poorly, or seem unsure, then I tell them the dictionary definition of feminism.
fem⋅i⋅nism
[fem-uh-niz-uhm]
–noun
the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
Nowhere in there is anything said about hairy legs, hating men, sexual orientation, or brassieres.
Actually, I never claim to be a feminist. Just like I never claim to be a nice, decent, or good guy. Because I don’t think I can give myself a title that deserves respect. But I do tell people I can be a bit of a bastard. Because, well, can’t we all?
I pretty much always call myself a feminist. My friends- who are generally of the ‘I agree with feminist ideas but I’m not a feminist’ type- are all aware of my feminism. But like Britni, I’m studying Women and Gender Studies (majoring, probably) and that makes it more obvious, when I talk about my classes and I’m spending an entire semester on women’s health. Plus, I’m in The Vagina Monologues, and our campus feminist organization. It’s kind of a duh.
If I were asked point blank, I would always answer in the affirmative.
In social setting that consists of my peers, I tend to not worry about railing against patriarchy or calling people out on their sexism and misogyny. I do tone myself down considerably when I am in the company of my older relatives or friends of my parents. I will still call a spade a spade, just more politely. In such situations I simply point out that I find such and such sexist because of … I don’t argue beyond stating my view because the older generations simply dismiss me and use my confrontational attitude to make my parent’s lives miserable.
I have never unidentified as a feminist as a result of wondering what people will think or if they will react negatively towards me. The only time I have been reluctant to self identify as a feminist, is when feminists have ignored complex issues of race, immigration etc. and isolated immigrant women and women of colour. I have (and continue to do so now) spent a lot of time wondering if feminism does include a migrant woman of colour because there have been plenty of moments where I felt I was invisible to the movement.
P.S: I came here via Feministing and am thrilled to hear your voices in detail since I have always enjoyed your comments on Feministing and Jezebel. Thanks and good luck.
I am a teacher and after hearing three degrading comments directed towards women in two days (this seems to be part of the everyday language of male high school students), I made my announcement in class, “I never want to hear that again! I am a feminist and it really disappoints me to hear sexist comments repeatedly from guys in this school.” That is when I walked away and sat at my desk for a few minutes to cool off.
It is strange to me that whore, bitch, and cunt are common words used by male teenagers. They usually say they are just joking, but these gentleman need to become aware that comments like these are derogatory and offensive and joking or not, they are not okay to say. These situations are ignored way too often, making these comments more and more acceptable. Luckily, these gentlemen have a feminist teacher who is going to speak up.
I am becoming more and more comfortable with announcing my feminism when I feel it is necessary and yesterday it definitely was.
I have to field defenses on feminism quite often actually. My boyfriend is WWII re-enactor and I love the opportunity to dress up, look pretty, and surprise the big boys when I can drink more, spit farther, talk more eloquently and intelligently than they ever could (even when drunk!)
Often times they try and dismiss it as “angry feminist man hating bullshit” but I’ve actually changed a few minds. It’s not easy changing an ultra-conservative’s mind to see my way, but I do it.
Unfortunately the general response is that they pull my partner aside and say something along the lines of “You need to keep that woman on a shorter leash”. He always defends me though and tells them that I am my own person with thoughts and opinions and I’m not afraid to express them, besides, if he did try to “keep me on a leash”, he would have an incredible backlash to deal with! I’m so glad to have a man in my life who understands and supports feminism.
I try to never announce “I’m a feminist” if I can avoid it, but it becomes blatantly apparent very quickly. I do however, correct people, even strangers, when I hear them getting off woman-hating bullshit. I try very hard to keep my female friend self-deprecating themselves.
I had not given much thought to the issue until someone told me I was a feminist.
I kinda thought I wasn’t nearly active or political enough to have earned the label. Her rationale was that being in a male dominated career and sport and EXPECTING to be treated as an equal and with respect made me a feminist.
I still feel that “feminists” must be more vocal and active than I am, but I like the idea that girls can look at what I do and know that the door is open for them too and that boys see women CAN officiate men’s sports and be scientists.
I do not hesitate ever. It’s how I’ve been raised, and I don’t really care if people dislike me because I am a feminist. That means they fucking suck.
I have a BA in Women’s Studies and I am so proud of it. I also have really awesome friends, a super cool boyfriend… all of whom support the evil feminist agenda.
My coworkers constantly talk bad about themselves and their bodies. Sometimes I can’t take it anymore and tell them we are all attractive, educated women and we should have a women-positive office where we don’t demean ourselves.
One of them will say, “Oh that’s right, you’re a feminist.”
Damn straight.
Hmm. I don’t know if I ever come out and say, “I’m a feminist” apropos of nothing. Usually if people ask me straight out it’s because I’ve made a feminist-sounding remark (or, let’s face it, gone off on a rant, that happens too). And then my answer is, “well, obviously.” Being raised by a feminist mother, it’s more of a fact of life for me than something I’ve chosen to commit myself to. At this point I don’t know how to not be a feminist. It’s usually obvious to everyone I spend more than ten minutes talking to about politics, I imagine.
When I was in high school, I would go out of my way to state that I wasn’t a feminist because I thought that it would make me seem unattractive. I hope I can be forgiven for my youthful ignorance; I wised up pretty quickly when I got to college. After I stopped caring what people thought, I even reached a point where I was actively trying to alienate people who I saw as unfeminist, or at least bring them out of the woodwork, by declaring myself. Sometimes I feel really reactionary and I think I’ve probably gotten too strident, but I go to a big public university where frat culture runs rampant, and sometimes I feel like I see misogyny, sexism and the degradation of women everywhere I turn. The catalyst for this new, reactionary side of me was a women’s studies course I took last semester. For a class that was made up primarily of, I would assume, self-identified feminists, there was a lot of unfeminist bullshit being thrown around in discussion. I feel like I have to be vocal about what I believe because I see feminism dying all around me. Which sounds kind of bleak, but being an out-and-proud feminist has also allowed to find a few like-minded people on campus who I wouldn’t have met otherwise, so it’s not all bad.