Comments on: We’re All Overeducated and Underemployed: An Unexpected Upside of the Wall Street Meltdown http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/ As narrated by five of the most charming and vicious women on the internet Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:08:53 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: TeacherjoinsArmy http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/comment-page-1/#comment-18060 TeacherjoinsArmy Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:08:09 +0000 http://www.harpyness.com/?p=1007#comment-18060 I am a member of GenX,I turn 40 in January. I became a teacher because I thought job security was tradeoff for a lower paying profession. I taught for a semester after Ed school and now there are no jobs at all in my state of California,which is a as nearly as expensive of place to live as New York. I collect unemployment with a Master's and Teaching certificate. I have 3Xs the education my parents yet only a fraction of their wealth. I am currently living on the edge every month. I was poor as a student, I was poor as a student teacher and now Iam overeducated and unemployed. I want my slice of the pie. Since the Army now Commissions up to 41 I am seriously contemplating joing and there is a war on. I am a member of GenX,I turn 40 in January. I became a teacher because I thought job security was tradeoff for a lower paying profession. I taught for a semester after Ed school and now there are no jobs at all in my state of California,which is a as nearly as expensive of place to live as New York. I collect unemployment with a Master’s and Teaching certificate. I have 3Xs the education my parents yet only a fraction of their wealth. I am currently living on the edge every month. I was poor as a student, I was poor as a student teacher and now Iam overeducated and unemployed. I want my slice of the pie. Since the Army now Commissions up to 41 I am seriously contemplating joing and there is a war on.

]]> By: » In Which The Grey Lady Gets Punked The Pursuit of Harpyness http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/comment-page-1/#comment-2263 » In Which The Grey Lady Gets Punked The Pursuit of Harpyness Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:53:03 +0000 http://www.harpyness.com/?p=1007#comment-2263 [...] of us when we read this article thought something smelled funny. Including me. The tone was off, the women quoted seemed a little too flip, a little too shameless and [...] [...] of us when we read this article thought something smelled funny. Including me. The tone was off, the women quoted seemed a little too flip, a little too shameless and [...]

]]> By: elibard http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/comment-page-1/#comment-1158 elibard Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:26:42 +0000 http://www.harpyness.com/?p=1007#comment-1158 And Endora, I loved your novel. It's highly pertinent. And Endora, I loved your novel. It’s highly pertinent.

]]> By: elibard http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/comment-page-1/#comment-1157 elibard Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:25:20 +0000 http://www.harpyness.com/?p=1007#comment-1157 I think everybody's right here. What hasn't been mentioned yet is that the process of class and social mobility in the US is changing, fast. It has changed radically in the last 25 years. Whereas someone's parents or grandparents may have been able to get a free education thanks to a formerly wonderful GI bill, or more-generous grants and scholarships, now, due to sheer population and (interrelated) economic pressures, class is not so mobile. There aren't enough schools for the number of people who want to get a college degree. 30 years ago, the top executive made maybe 25 times what the worker made. Now, the CEO makes 821 times what the minimum wage worker makes. People are living with their parents well into their 30s - that's not uncommon. We are quickly becoming more like Europe, where middle class people will stay middle class or move down, and people in the lower socio-economic range have fewer and fewer chances to make it to middle class. This is the first generation that will NOT be better off than the previous one. Our era of unabashed growth is over. We're finally climbing on board the boat that the rest of the developed world has been in for decades. So no matter which aspects of class we consider, they are all changing and increasingly stratifying - quickly. I think everybody’s right here. What hasn’t been mentioned yet is that the process of class and social mobility in the US is changing, fast. It has changed radically in the last 25 years. Whereas someone’s parents or grandparents may have been able to get a free education thanks to a formerly wonderful GI bill, or more-generous grants and scholarships, now, due to sheer population and (interrelated) economic pressures, class is not so mobile. There aren’t enough schools for the number of people who want to get a college degree. 30 years ago, the top executive made maybe 25 times what the worker made. Now, the CEO makes 821 times what the minimum wage worker makes. People are living with their parents well into their 30s – that’s not uncommon. We are quickly becoming more like Europe, where middle class people will stay middle class or move down, and people in the lower socio-economic range have fewer and fewer chances to make it to middle class. This is the first generation that will NOT be better off than the previous one. Our era of unabashed growth is over. We’re finally climbing on board the boat that the rest of the developed world has been in for decades. So no matter which aspects of class we consider, they are all changing and increasingly stratifying – quickly.

]]> By: Endora http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/comment-page-1/#comment-1156 Endora Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:59:44 +0000 http://www.harpyness.com/?p=1007#comment-1156 Shoot, I've been working on my dissertation (senior thesis) all day and obviously got into essay mode--sorry for writing a novel!! Shoot, I’ve been working on my dissertation (senior thesis) all day and obviously got into essay mode–sorry for writing a novel!!

]]> By: Endora http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/comment-page-1/#comment-1154 Endora Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:58:58 +0000 http://www.harpyness.com/?p=1007#comment-1154 I think all these comments are really interesting. Here's my two cents, for what they're worth: I think PhDork is completely on the mark when she says that there are different aspects to class. Even if you make a lot of money, I think a lot of people will look down on you for being 'nouveau riche' if you don't have the right manners and habits, even if they don't actually realise they are thinking that way. I do think that happens a lot less in America, where a lot of people are proud of having risen in society, than elsewhere (having lived for significant amounts of time in the US, the UK, and Germany). But I actually disagree that it's easier to move up in class in America. Or, to put it more precisely, in America you can move up in class more rapidly--but if you don't, you're more likely to notice it in your everyday life. It is simply the fact that there are fewer rich people in the UK and Germany, so what most people are aspiring to is somewhere in the middle, which affords you with a very good lifestyle, plenty of leisure time, etc. A lot of 'culture' is more widely available than in America because of state subsidies, so it is not just the rich people who can go to museums and fancy concerts. (That's one of the things I love about Berlin, you can get almost any kind of culture for less than 10 euros). There is also less inequality in education. In America, you finish college burdened with debt, which really limits your choices of what to do after graduation. That is not the case in Germany, where tuition is either free or costs a few hundred euros a semester, and is true to a much smaller extent in Britain, where tuition fees are capped for all universities at 3,000 pounds. And I think the snobbishness of earlier days is fading in Britain. Some may have turned their noses up at Thatcher, but neither Blair nor Brown came from especially privileged families and many aristocratic types are actually a bit ashamed of it now and try to act more middle-class (i.e. Prince Harry using a non-posh accent). Obviously there are exceptions, but the trend is definitely to more equality. This isn't meant to say Europe's got the recipe right, but I think these shades of grey often really go missing when people talk about greater mobility in America. I think all these comments are really interesting. Here’s my two cents, for what they’re worth:

I think PhDork is completely on the mark when she says that there are different aspects to class. Even if you make a lot of money, I think a lot of people will look down on you for being ‘nouveau riche’ if you don’t have the right manners and habits, even if they don’t actually realise they are thinking that way.

I do think that happens a lot less in America, where a lot of people are proud of having risen in society, than elsewhere (having lived for significant amounts of time in the US, the UK, and Germany). But I actually disagree that it’s easier to move up in class in America.

Or, to put it more precisely, in America you can move up in class more rapidly–but if you don’t, you’re more likely to notice it in your everyday life.

It is simply the fact that there are fewer rich people in the UK and Germany, so what most people are aspiring to is somewhere in the middle, which affords you with a very good lifestyle, plenty of leisure time, etc. A lot of ‘culture’ is more widely available than in America because of state subsidies, so it is not just the rich people who can go to museums and fancy concerts. (That’s one of the things I love about Berlin, you can get almost any kind of culture for less than 10 euros).

There is also less inequality in education. In America, you finish college burdened with debt, which really limits your choices of what to do after graduation. That is not the case in Germany, where tuition is either free or costs a few hundred euros a semester, and is true to a much smaller extent in Britain, where tuition fees are capped for all universities at 3,000 pounds.

And I think the snobbishness of earlier days is fading in Britain. Some may have turned their noses up at Thatcher, but neither Blair nor Brown came from especially privileged families and many aristocratic types are actually a bit ashamed of it now and try to act more middle-class (i.e. Prince Harry using a non-posh accent). Obviously there are exceptions, but the trend is definitely to more equality.

This isn’t meant to say Europe’s got the recipe right, but I think these shades of grey often really go missing when people talk about greater mobility in America.

]]> By: PhDork http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/comment-page-1/#comment-1151 PhDork Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:34:16 +0000 http://www.harpyness.com/?p=1007#comment-1151 I don't think class <em>habitus</em> (cf my main homme, Bourdieu) is necessarily easy to overcome, either, PS. My parents were culturally aspirational, and I benefitted a lot from that, but my looks and clothes and all my other material trappings aren't going to open any doors for me. Likewise, I can't afford a lot of the cultural/travel experiences I'd like to enjoy. I wasn't able to travel outside of the country until I was in my mid-20s, which makes me pretty backwards in some circles. Not having the funds is a big part of it, but it ain't all. I'm doing some work on (well sorta) a "low" cultural site where class implications are all mixed up, especially compared to NYC, and it's been through that work that the complexities and subsets of class have become much more apparent to me. Different groups value different things, and your status can change wildly, even if nothing about <em>you</em> has changed. My dad has an RV, for what its worth, but I think he's looking to sell it. Your folks want his number? :) I don’t think class habitus (cf my main homme, Bourdieu) is necessarily easy to overcome, either, PS. My parents were culturally aspirational, and I benefitted a lot from that, but my looks and clothes and all my other material trappings aren’t going to open any doors for me. Likewise, I can’t afford a lot of the cultural/travel experiences I’d like to enjoy. I wasn’t able to travel outside of the country until I was in my mid-20s, which makes me pretty backwards in some circles. Not having the funds is a big part of it, but it ain’t all. I’m doing some work on (well sorta) a “low” cultural site where class implications are all mixed up, especially compared to NYC, and it’s been through that work that the complexities and subsets of class have become much more apparent to me. Different groups value different things, and your status can change wildly, even if nothing about you has changed.

My dad has an RV, for what its worth, but I think he’s looking to sell it. Your folks want his number? :)

]]> By: Pilgrim Soul http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/comment-page-1/#comment-1148 Pilgrim Soul Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:18:38 +0000 http://www.harpyness.com/?p=1007#comment-1148 Well, PhD and Becky, I don't know. I don't know that I think class is that easy to overcome, and I don't know that I think that it is totally about who's making the most money. There are still a lot of things in my life that remind me that I am not like my educated friends. My parents dream of owning an RV, for example, but bringing this up in mixed company brings jeers. When people talk about "white trash," they are not talking about poor graduate students, they are talking about people whose incomes may even exceed those of graduate students but who still bear that lingering smell of "not having been brought up properly." Personally I would say to me class seems a lot more about social expectations and mores than it ever did about money. I am upper middle class now by virtue of my salary, but I still say all the wrong things in mixed company, have the wrong manners, did not see any symphony/theatre/"high art" with my parents. Well, PhD and Becky, I don’t know. I don’t know that I think class is that easy to overcome, and I don’t know that I think that it is totally about who’s making the most money. There are still a lot of things in my life that remind me that I am not like my educated friends. My parents dream of owning an RV, for example, but bringing this up in mixed company brings jeers. When people talk about “white trash,” they are not talking about poor graduate students, they are talking about people whose incomes may even exceed those of graduate students but who still bear that lingering smell of “not having been brought up properly.”

Personally I would say to me class seems a lot more about social expectations and mores than it ever did about money. I am upper middle class now by virtue of my salary, but I still say all the wrong things in mixed company, have the wrong manners, did not see any symphony/theatre/”high art” with my parents.

]]> By: BeckySharper http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/comment-page-1/#comment-1144 BeckySharper Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:52:54 +0000 http://www.harpyness.com/?p=1007#comment-1144 @Ph.Dork: I think social class in the US is generally determined by who has the most cash. The moneyed class is usually the well-educated--you don't see many CEOs who don't have considerable higher education--although not always (see: Jay-Z, A. Rod). But in the US, unlike other places, you can change classes very easily. My father's father had no money. My father went to college and law school on full scholarship and now makes a great deal of money. He's upper middle class now, strictly b/c of his education and bank account, and no one would dispute that. It's one of the reasons I like this country--even if you aren't born in the upper classes, if you make money or get a good education no one will challenge your right to social mobility (unlike, say, the UK, where the establishment groused about how Margaret Thatcher is a greengrocer's daughter who didn't have the right upper-crust accent). @Ph.Dork: I think social class in the US is generally determined by who has the most cash. The moneyed class is usually the well-educated–you don’t see many CEOs who don’t have considerable higher education–although not always (see: Jay-Z, A. Rod). But in the US, unlike other places, you can change classes very easily. My father’s father had no money. My father went to college and law school on full scholarship and now makes a great deal of money. He’s upper middle class now, strictly b/c of his education and bank account, and no one would dispute that. It’s one of the reasons I like this country–even if you aren’t born in the upper classes, if you make money or get a good education no one will challenge your right to social mobility (unlike, say, the UK, where the establishment groused about how Margaret Thatcher is a greengrocer’s daughter who didn’t have the right upper-crust accent).

]]> By: PhDork http://www.harpyness.com/2009/02/09/were-all-overeducated-and-underemployed-an-unexpected-upside-of-the-wall-street-meltdown/comment-page-1/#comment-1142 PhDork Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:26:07 +0000 http://www.harpyness.com/?p=1007#comment-1142 We're (everyone, not just Harpyness or the Times) talk about class and class-privilege as if it only means one thing, when it fact it has multiple inter-related facets. I grew up in a white (that's part of class), middle-class-earning (ditto) family where both parents did work more with their brains than their bodies (ditto). I've been financially on my own since 18, since my folks couldn't afford to put me through college. I'm female (class), with about 11 years of college (massive educational capital), and I teach (which gets a lot of lip service, but not much more) and have also worked in the non-profit arts sector (likewise, it's got cultural capital, but that doesn't equal financial capital). I've never ever earned more than $28K in a year, own nothing of value, and scrape by. I live in NYC, where that income lands me in a significantly lower economic "class" than someone making 2 or 3 or 4 or 8 times what I make, regardless of their sex, race, education or background. Whose "class" is higher: a self-taught, African American, male computer programmer who makes $80K a year, or me? An i-banker (or a DABA girl) or me? A 28 year old gallery assistant, or me? Becky, or me? (Sorry, Becks, I'm not making a challenge, I'm just always bothered about how Americans talk--or rather, don't talk--about class.) We’re (everyone, not just Harpyness or the Times) talk about class and class-privilege as if it only means one thing, when it fact it has multiple inter-related facets.

I grew up in a white (that’s part of class), middle-class-earning (ditto) family where both parents did work more with their brains than their bodies (ditto). I’ve been financially on my own since 18, since my folks couldn’t afford to put me through college. I’m female (class), with about 11 years of college (massive educational capital), and I teach (which gets a lot of lip service, but not much more) and have also worked in the non-profit arts sector (likewise, it’s got cultural capital, but that doesn’t equal financial capital). I’ve never ever earned more than $28K in a year, own nothing of value, and scrape by. I live in NYC, where that income lands me in a significantly lower economic “class” than someone making 2 or 3 or 4 or 8 times what I make, regardless of their sex, race, education or background.

Whose “class” is higher: a self-taught, African American, male computer programmer who makes $80K a year, or me? An i-banker (or a DABA girl) or me? A 28 year old gallery assistant, or me? Becky, or me?

(Sorry, Becks, I’m not making a challenge, I’m just always bothered about how Americans talk–or rather, don’t talk–about class.)

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