This potentially recurring feature, curated for now by Pilgrim Soul unless other Harpies wish to leap in, directs Harpy readers to important feminist thoughts and concepts as spoken by some of her favourite feminists on and off the web. The appraisal of the value of these snippets is, of course, entirely Pilgrim Soul’s, and does not necessarily reflect the views of other Harpies. Feel free to discuss in the comments here.
Today’s Feminist Food for Thought comes via my favourite radical feminist blogger, Twisty Faster, who explains her ambivalence towards a certain variety of man commenting on feminist blogs, usually from a “I totally get feminism” perspective:
Hear me, O afflicted dudes: If you truly do “get” feminism, you know that, like all oppressed classes, women, as a matter of survival, are intimate to the point of exhaustion with the drives, appetites, illnesses, angsts, yearnings, hopes, dreams, great works, and bodily functions of the oppressor. We grasp these things utterly and without omission because we do not live in a cave; they are the default subjects of all art, literature, music, science, film, blogs, dinner conversation, science fiction, advertising, journalism, legislation, TV, the Internet, religion, technology, sport, and miscellaneous culture both low and high. The minute some dude tells me something I don’t already know about dudeliness, I’ll eat a bonobo.
While I see her point, I wouldn’t want to jump down the throat of men who are acknowledging and trying to understand and get on board with feminism. They are our allies, and while they may never fully understand our plight, the way I will never fully understand the plight of a person of color because I am not one, I think that we should appreciate their effort to be on our side and attempt to educate themselves about feminism.
We need more men like that.
Britni: what I think is the issue here is whether men who are coming to feminist blogs to lecture feminist women on feminist issues are really either “on our side” or “attempt[ing] to educate themselves about feminism.” Often, they’re just taking up conversational space they appear to believe is their right.
We have lots of male friends and allies who read and comment on this blog, and they do not do this, and Twisty has a few of them too.
I think the issue, a little bit, is that not necessarily caring what men have to say, all the time, is read as “jumping down their throats.”
So awesome. And Britni, I don’t think that’s what she’s getting at. I think it’s more about men who think women need to be educated about their viewpoints (and angsts and bodily functions, etc) as though we aren’t swimming in a sea of all things male, changing the topic to The Way Dudes See It rather than the topic at hand. It seems some believe if only we women could see things from THEIR perspective we wouldn’t complain so much.
PS: Maybe I’m being naive or optimistic (which would be a first for me) but are they really taking up conversational space that they “believe is their right”? Or are they trying to engage in a dialogue? We need more people than just women to discuss feminist issues and get involved in talking about the oppression of the patriarchy, because women alone cannot change things. And whether or not these men truly understand, I am at least appreciative of the fact that they are trying, even if their attempt is a boorish rant or lecture.
I don’t know if I am articulating my point well here, but I guess what I’m trying to say is that why alienate the men that are at least trying to understand our plight by criticizing them?
I think it may have been a mistake on PS’s part to include the line about their “I totally get feminism” perspective, because that’s definitely the type of guy I have in mind. The point is that they’re NOT trying, but are miffed that there’s a place in the blogosphere, let alone the world, where their concerns are not paramount.
Maybe a bit of background is required!
Ok, well that is a different story. I’ll have to read a little more so that I understand where she’s coming from, I guess! Thanks!
You know, Sarah, I’m actually not sure I’m understanding your comment. Because to me there are two kinds of male commenters that cause issues and we may be talking about different ones.
The first kind is the classic anti-feminist who shows up to edumacate (sic intentional) me about How Things Really Are and who gets mad when I disagree.
The second more insidious sort tends to be the kind of guy who is feminister-than-thou. “My girlfriend totally enjoys anal sex and she is a feminist!” And then, when they receive the internet comment equivalent of stink-eye, their feelings are hurt. “Why do you guys hate men?” etc etc.
Also, Britni, my experience is that men who do understand our plight? Are not in the slightest insulted by the above, or by the claim that women are probably the best people to articulate what is helpful for women.
Nono, Britni, no need to do additional reading, I think Sarah’s reference to the need for additional background was in response to my post.
Hmm. Well I guess I don’t see men who’d resort to “Why do you hate men” as feminist allies in the first place. I don’t see how they’re trying to come off as feminister-than-thou; more like they’re trying to play gotcha with feminists because they’re more concerned about maintaining their own privilege.
This is why I love Twisty Faster.
Sarah, I’m sort of referring to when they self-anoint as feminist allies and self-anoint as feminister-than-thou. I am under no particular illusion that they are actually allies.
This is why I love Twisty Faster too.
And I probably should have kept quiet because now I’ve just confused things further.
Nah Sarah, it’s an important distinction.
The dudes get no sympathy from me. It doesn’t upset me to check my privilege when it’s relevant to the conversation. I listen and recognize that it’s *not about me* personally and I don’t need to get defensive and point out all of the ways I am not like X thing.
Right now I am reading a bunch of blogs by people who grew up/still live in the rapidly gentrifying neighborhood I recently moved to because I feel like it’s *my* responsibility to educate myself on the history of the place and the ways in which gentrification (of which I am now a part of by moving here) has affected the area. I do not expect someone who has grown up here and seen friends and family pushed out by rising rents to hold my hand and tell me that I shouldn’t personally feel responsible for such things.
So I figure if li’l old me can handle such things, surely it’s possible for the dudes to do so similarly when they stumble upon a feminist blog.
Okay, side question here: What’s the difference between a radical feminist and a feminist?
DM, post coming shortly.
Thanks, I can only geek about so many things.
I, for one, don’t give a two shits about What Dudes Think. I highly recommend it.
Don’t worry, DM. For a women’s studies minor, I suck really hard at analyzing feminist issues from an insightful perspective. I try (and usually fail), though.
@PhDork: Agreed. I came across someone today (by “came across”, I mean I saw a commenter on the internet) who called themselves “a Canadian fathers/men’s rights activist [who is] used to seeing my gender portrayed as bumbling fools on sitcoms, as deadbeats, or prone to violence in the media and it’s so nice to see a man portrayed as someone who did a very good thing.”
O noes! Teh poor menz feel that people don’t like them!
Also, those men who are portrayed as “bumbling fools,” “deadbeats,” or “prone to violence”? They are CONSTANTLY and UNFAILINGLY accompanied by their long-suffering wives/girlfriends, who are often portrayed as either shrewish and nagging, or exist only to support their poor man. Oh, and of course they’re always conventionally good-looking, because every guy deserves hottie even if he’s no prize himself, amirite fellas?
Yes to this post. Yes a lot. I will add that I am also bothered (though slightly less so) by a third type of male poster: the one that pops up and says “I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU GUYS” all the time, but then disappears when another man shows up on the scene, only to reappear a week later with “What was *that* guy’s problem?”
This guy can be spotted by looking for the trail of “I wish all guys were just like you” / “You’re the kind of guy I’ve always been looking for!” comments that follow all of his posts. It is my amateur opinion that these comments are what keeps this guy coming back to the trough again and again.
/end rant
Ooooh yvanehtnioj I am so feeling you on that point. It drives me mad and it happens again and again in, ahem, certain places.
Places that will not be named.
::ahem::
Ok, off topic, but yvanehtnioj, what does your name mean? Every time I see it, I try to pronounce it, which clearly doesn’t work, and then I give up.
It’s a Simpsons reference from the episode where Bart joined a boy band (and N*Sync guested). The chorus from their one big hit was yvanehtnioj. Lisa figured out it was subliminal messaging from the military — “join the Navy” backwards.
Nerdy? Yes. But I loved the Simpsons and N*Sync at the time. And I still love Lisa.
Yes, I hate those men too…
John, to be perfectly frank, I’m not usually in the habit of handing out male commenter cookies, but you are one of my favourite male commenters of all time. I never get the impression from your comments that you are here to inform us all on the State of the Dude. You even declined to adopt the feminist mantle for yourself because you said, I think, it wasn’t yours to claim? You get majah props from me for all that.
Thanks for the link to Twisty Faster!! It really clears my brain to read her, she makes so much black and white sense to my gray brain. I totally see her point and it makes total sense to me. I have had subconscious thoughts of “reeks of pissing all over something just to own it and spread their own precious pheremones” when I read some comments on Jezebel by men, but that site is something else entirely.
And when you read the comments of her previous posts you can totally tell what men she is referring to. And they don’t need to be there, on her blog.
So, I finally sat down and read the original post from which the quote came, and it makes A LOT more sense now. Note to self: read original post next time.
Also, she is awesome and I’m sorry I didn’t discover her blog sooner. I love her points and I love her writing. Thank you for her link!
I was busy reading the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue. What did I miss?
@Macloserboy: zing
I tried a joke in my comment, but it wasn’t as funny as I wanted. So I went with a dry attempt at wit.
I just started reading Twisty’s blog, and when I saw this post today I was so pleased. My feminist theory class this semester is full of people who subscribe to the “I choose my choice!” feminism, and every time I say anything remotely critical of the patriarchy (like, “I think sex work is a problematic issue and may be more nuanced than a simple ‘pro-choice’ view allows because of blahblah”) several of my classmates always tell me that anything a woman CHOOSES is TOTALLY feminist and worth supporting, DUH. Twisty’s blog makes me feel like I’m not totally crazy for thinking that women’s choices are all shaped by the dudeliness that permeates society.