This is hard to write. But I have to do it. I have to be honest with myself. All the relationship books apparently say that honesty is the cornerstone of every romantic relationship. (Note: I do not actually read any of these books.)
Jon Stewart, I watch your show every night. Well, every morning, rather, but let’s not get caught up in details. And every night I say to myself, now, why can’t all dudes be like Jon? Why can’t they be funny when appropriate, and passionate when appropriate, and otherwise just generally come off as decent men? I have met a few of these men over time, and they are always goddamned married or whatever, but they give me hope that I should not just close up shop and take comfort in a million cats.
Ahem.
Some people might say that since I don’t actually, you know, know Jon Stewart, my assumptions about him are, whatchamacallit, overreaching. But let me tell you something. I was once, for a few blessed minutes back in 2008, on an elliptical next to the man, and I just, I know I had to be right that his particular brand of dorkdom was something all men should adopt in future. I could tell. He exuded an aura. I swear!
But every once in awhile, the Daily Show goes and does something that I just can’t get behind. To wit, around the 2:08 mark:
Sigh.
For a long time I have overlooked what a sausagefest it is over on that show’s writing staff/correspondents because of my love of Jon, but my willful blindness is rather contingent on their not making shitty sexist remarks about women I don’t particularly like anyway but have to object to sexist critiques of because feminism can be a real bummer sometimes. Oh haha I know it’s just comedy, and why am I no fun whatsoever anyway, but “MILFy wolf huntress?” That’s the best you can do? I notice you didn’t come up with any race-based slurs for Michael Steele or Bobby Jindal.
But, you know, I really should not be surprised, given how many liberal dudes I have known and/or dated over time who, a propos of nothing, come up with amazingly sexist language and attitudes when we’re having a perfectly lovely nascent relationship.
Does anyone else have this problem? What’s the coping strategy? And don’t any of you answer “political lesbianism.”
My strategy usually ends with the guy saying, “Why do you have to take everything so seeeeeeeeriously?” or “I was only kidding. It’s a joke! Ever heard of those?” So, um, I might not be the master strategist you’re seeking.
I used to love the Daily Show, but I just can’t watch it anymore. Ever since the election it just isn’t that funny to me, and more and more it seems like they go for the cheap joke. Like when he made fun of MLKIII’s weight *at length* on his father’s holiday. Inappropriate joke on a really inappropriate day.
And I gave it another effort the other day and tried to watch and ultimately turned it off because he was being really rude to his guest that night. It was just uncomfortable to watch.
It depends on the situation honestly. If I feel like the person is “worth it” I’ll point it out and why I find X remark sexist or whatever, I have to say I don’t know if I change minds but I am usually humored at least. If I feel like it isn’t “worth it” and/or workplace situation, I will just give a blank look or perhaps small smile (depends on aforementioned work situation) and move that person into the “asshole” column.
Also! Tell more about working out with Jon Stewart? Did he give eye contact? seem down to earth? More details please!!!
I’m amazed at how many women use sexist language. It’s everywhere, like a dull fog. I guess it goes without saying that you date liberal, smart men. Unfortunately, a lot of those men don’t have a sense of humor. A lot people don’t have a sense of humor, and even more THINK they have a great sense of humor when they’re really just trying too hard.
Knowing the little I do know about you, PS, I kind of see you meeting a dude who will actively engage and often argue with you. Not for the sake of arguing or playing Devil’s Advocate, but because he’s actively curious.
The reason we don’t let sexist remarks about the women we don’t particularly like (hello, Paris Hilton) slide is because 80% of the population has no boundaries and are not aware of the nuances of language and its impact.
Aaaaan, I’ve had too much coffee.
My advice is this – coping strategy-wise. Take a piss with every guy you meet, and if he can handle it without turning into an asshole, that’s a good start.
Also, if he listens to NPR that’s good too.
Let it be said that I do not know Jon Stewart, but when I met him eight years ago he called me “too cute to be 19.” I’m still trying to figure out what that meant.
@sarah: hm. I don’t know what to think about that…
Sarah, in general I would think it means you looked more like 14. Which, creeps me out.
Personally, I hate it when people tell me I look too “XYZ” to be anything.
@penny: totally. one guy “friend” informed me, while I was applying for law schools, with total seriousness, “idk. I just think you’re too fun and pretty for that, you don’t seem like a lawyer” in this tone like he was helping me out.
If he’s a man worth a damn, he can handle it if you say, “wow, that really just rubbed me the wrong way and here’s why” and you can actually have a conversation about that thing he just said. Maybe it’s just an up-til-now unexamined, unconscious assumption of his that needs to be brought out into the light and talked about.
I help my guy confront sexism, he helps me stop always assuming the worst of people, and on and on about the things we do without thinking that we should both really think about more often.
Penny: Because I am overly aware of how emasculating I can be, I occasionally overcompensate in the presence of dudes. This is a habit I’m slowly curing myself of. But in general, because the rest of my life is overly verbal and argumentative, I kind of think lately, I just want someone zen.
PhDork is rolling her eyes as she reads this, I know.
I work in an office with young, smart, liberal men. They are nice guys and funny and I like them all very much, but here’s something that happened recently:
We were having problems with our network and router. We are a small company (6 of us total) and there is no “tech person” so those sorts of issues usually fall to me, even though I’m not that tech-savvy. I spent 2 hours dealing with the network malfunctions, restarting and reinstalling entire systems. The whole time, the guys I work with kept “jokingly” complaining that it was taking me too long. When I finally figured out the problem and fixed it, I said “you guys are welcome by the way.” The response I got? One of the guys actually said “oh geez louise, you know there’s a woman around when someone starts begging for recognition for every little thing.” He then added, in a high pitched voice, “Oh please, notice me. Appreciate every single little thing I do.”
At first I didn’t say anything, I just went upstairs to the bathroom and cried because I felt so angry and embarrassed. But when I came back down, I confronted him about this incredibly sexist behavior and honestly, it only made things worse.
That was my long way of saying that sometimes, it just feels like there’s no way to win and while you are not crazy for trying, it’s hard not to feel like you are just totally wasting your time.
It sucks.
Claire – Assholes. Next time, when there is a tech issue? Tell them you are busy and they can figure it out themselves or call the Geek Squad.
Fuck that.
@claire: ugh. that is a horrible story. this is why I tend to keep my mouth shut at work. when I was first out of undergrad I spent too much time crying in the bathrooms because of things co-workers (always men) would say to me.
Claire, it’s so true. I have been lately calling people out on things at work – like when people are cracking prostitute jokes, which happens more than I’d like in my presence – and honestly, the understanding barrier is so high, and it’s so frustrating, that mostly by the end I wonder why I make things difficult for myself.
@claire: Jesus, that is really dickish behavior. I have one particularly sexist/racist colleague who I have butted heads with countless times. Except, unlike your coworkers, he would never be mistaken for a nice, liberal guy.
PS – I have a good friend who, I think, is very similar to you. It’s interesting to see her navigate the dating world. She’s aware that she can be “emasculating” and sometimes says she wishes she could be less so, but I hope it never changes, because she’s smart as shit and I’m glad she knows it.
Me, I don’t like to argue, I just generally act like a bitch when I hear something I don’t like.
Claire, I’m so sorry that happened. Their behavior was assy, and then just inexcusable. I’d tell you to go to HR, but there sounds like there IS no HR. Is the boss not assy? ‘Cause that shit is straight up hostile, and it’s clearly based on sex discrimination. That is: ILLEGAL.
And P.Soul, I’m not rolling my eyes. Although I object to the word “emasculating” on principle, I’ve been called “a human Altoid” before. My dude is (compared to me) zen, and I’d recommend cloning him if that wouldn’t make for a lot of wacky shenanigans.
@PhD: You know my thoughts on this subject.
And I object to the term, but I understand why it’s applied to me on occasion. The last dude I dated for more than three weeks said, “You just seem so… together” by way of explanation. Which is hilariously incorrect, although compared to him I was.
And sorry ladies, it is tremendously poor bonerkiller role-modeling to whine about dudes. But! Unless we all become lesbian separatists, we all seem doomed to encounter them everywhere.
@Pilgrim Soul.
Exactly. It’s incredibly frustrating, and exhausting. It is really unfair that I should 1. have to put up with sexist nonsense at work and 2. have to feel like my entire day is ruined and still be pissed off and incredibly tired when I get home because I attempted to fight back and argue against the sexism.
Though to provide a counterpoint and echo what funnyface said, when my husband says something sexist, which is pretty rare I’m happy to say, I can just say “dude that was sexist” and he thinks about it for a minute and says “god it really was. I’m sorry.”
I think most feminists will be hard-pressed to find a dude who doesn’t occasionally slip into saying or thinking something realllllly offensive. They’re living in the same noxious environment we are, only they’re not targets in the same way. The thing is to find a dude like claire’s dude, or mine, who can both listen and hear reasoned critique when they do say dumbass things that perpetuate that enviroment. Lemme tell ya, I doesn’t happen overnight.
And if “together”-ness = “emasculating”? Lord, lord. Run away, fast and far.
@PhDork: My dog usually is good about not calling his sister a bitch even though she technically is.
Pilgrim Soul: ok. idea. post on Gawker,hone your coping strategy that way.
Actual lesbianism?
Well, if we’re determined to hold out for the good menz, we have to help make them along the way. My mom’s given up on the Daily Show, but I’m still a believer. It is incredibly frustrating that there aren’t more than two female correspondents, or black correspondents, and that it’s ok for that to be a joke.
On the one hand, no, Jon, nobody’s going to insist you hire a woman/minority if they’re not funny, on the other hand, who are you freaking kidding that you can’t /find/ some??
Maybe Jon Stewart’s humor is changing as he gets older, maybe it’s a shift in his writing staff..maybe they’re not used to finding a way to be funny about women, period, so when they try it comes out as offensive. I don’t know, but it makes me sad too.
@claire: Just to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment because you don’t give much information about your work environment, but do you really think that if a guy had been doing it they wouldn’t have jokingly complained about how long it was taking him them mocked him for wanted appreciation? A great part of male behavior is busting on each other. Your response should have been simply to bust right back. You had the high ground! You did the job they could not which, quite frankly, may have been a bit threatening, but for that brief moment you had the power, so when he did the high pitched “Appreciate every little thing I do” you should have said, “Well if you ever did anything right you’d know how I feel.” That would have been much more effective at commanding respect than going into the bathroom and crying and then trying to open a dialogue. The last thing they’re going to do after that is to break on someone who is smarter and can break back.
Oh, don’t worry PhDork, I did. Except then I accidentally moved to his neighbourhood, and have twice been forced to duck and run, because every time I see him he sends me an emo email about how he misses me and we should hang out.
I’m starting to think I might steal a strand of hair from a decent dude’s hairbrush the next time I have the opportunity, just in case this whole cloning thing turns out well.
I think Colbert is better on the feminism front than Stewart. I think.
Oh, Mac, that’s mean. I love busting on people more than anyone, but I can do it without retreating to gendered/racist/otherwise bigoted slurs and stereotypes, which isn’t clever or novel.
Mac, for most of us that’s called dominating, and from my own feminist perspective, I don’t want to shame men into respecting me. I just think they ought to respect anyone.
@Mac: To play devil’s advocate right back, what would you propose I say to the coworker who told me I was “like a man” because I’m smart but “like a woman” because I type fast? Sometimes there’s no pithy remark that immediately springs to mind.
@Mac:
“A great part of male behavior is busting on each other.”
I don’t see why I should have to act like a man in order to command their respect.
Claire: PERFECT.
Mac, it sounds like you have bought into the notion that the workplace is, by default, a male space, and that women have to adjust their behavior accordingly if they want respect. Wrongo dongo.
…and as long as I’m doing the DA role, I stopped watching The Daily Show literally years ago, when the bandwagon just got a little too crowded for someone who’d been there BS (before Stewart), but in that clip I think the Sarah Palin joke is about the TRUE nature of most of her appeal and the character speaking it than boys club working there. Which is, quite frankly, the it has been since Craig Kilborn drove Liz Winstead away. Those are the same guys who wrote all the jokes you’ve been laughing at for the past two years. I wouldn’t know but unless it’s been non-stop “Sarah Palin MILF” jokes this is not the transgression you think it is.
@Mac: I am confused why sexism must be continued and pervasive in order to be objectionable, and in general, we do frown on people/men trying to tell women they just “didn’t get the joke” here.
I agree that sharply worded jokes are devastatingly effective, but, well, I’m not always 100% ready with that zinger when the teachable moment arrives.
To address your question P.Soul, I totally think a zen guy is the way to go. Almost all the women I know who are “like us” — i.e. like to yell about shit that matters — have found happiness with very very low key, even shy, partners. The thing is they may take a really long time to identify, cultivate, and feel comfortable enough to go out with you. I found much more success in love when I stopped going out with people whose personalities competed with mine, and found someone nurturing who complemented mine. I haven’t noticed him saying sexist things very often but he is trainable. Training is everything.
Sometimes I get outright appalled when my husband says something I find sexist or offensive to me because I think he’s pretty great most of the time. I was talking recently about some rape-related issue or another (it may have been RapeLay) and how rape is in some ways more shocking than murder because it’s such a gendered crime. He said, “I don’t know. What about the men who are raped by other men, or men who are raped by women?” I was shocked at the thought that he believed the issue mattered not because of the systematic, brutal victimization of women but because men are sometimes victims, too. I dropped the subject at the time because I hate to fight, especially if it’s late and I have to be up early in the morning, then the next evening said “hey, I thought about what you said,” and somehow had a calmer conversation about it. He was persuaded, I think. It’s a special case, though, because we’re married. He’s not my coworker or classmate. I imagine it would be much different to approach a coworker at a later time to talk about something like that.
@SarahMC, PilgrimSoul, claire: That kind of behavior isn’t rooted in intellect, so an intellectual response isn’t going to have much of a response as her attempted at a dialogue showed. It’s like reasoning with your dog when you should bat him across the nose with a newspaper. And as this site as made nearly its manifesto “There is no outside the patriarchy.” The workplace is a male space as much as any other space. So yes, some “man acting” is envitable because it’s not going to be gender neutral anytime soon.
And what’s wrong with shaming or embarrassing someone who who should be ashamed or embarrassed? If they’re all good little liberal boys, then it’s good for them. Save them from future hypocrisy.
re: the zen thing, I think that’s right. I was so taken aback by my husband’s offensive comment because comments like those really don’t come up. I can caterwaul all I like, and he’ll be interested and engaged but isn’t really likely to pipe up. He’s entirely nonconfrontational, hasn’t ever raised his voice in my presence, and although he’s thoughtful he isn’t outspoken. Compared to me, he’s a regular bodhisattva.
I don’t think I’m projecting my own liberalism on to him for the most part, either. He’ll cringe when a friend says “gay” or “retarded” to denigrate something, and he’s fond of the refrain “women’s rights are human rights.” Creating support systems to get people out of poverty is his number one political cause, which means supporting women most of all.
@pilgrim: Then tell me, as someone who doesn’t watch the show: have “Sarah Palin MILF” jokes been a regular part of the repertoire of The Daily Show this past year? If not, then its use here may not be the indication an underlying sexism you think it is. Also, aren’t we supposed to be laughing AT the character who is saying all these dumb things? How does this suddenly become the writer’s actual point of view?
Oh, and I can spell “inevitable.” I just didn’t do it there.
@Mac
I’m not against joking and ribbing and actually employ such tactics with great frequency in settings outside of my office. I lived with 6 men during college; I know how to stand up for myself and counter with a sharp, witty remark. It simply is not always appropriate, though, and in the situation I described, I was frustrated after 2 hours of dealing with tech problems. I shouldn’t have to shame or embarrass someone to get a thank you after fixing something that we all rely on to do our jobs.
And I have to disagree with the argument you are making in general. Countering a joke with a joke doesn’t guarantee that anyone will feel shamed or embarrassed. It just as likely suggests that the original joke was acceptable–hey we’re all friends, we can joke like this, that kind of thing. It is simply not the same as batting your dog across the nose with a newspaper.
Furthermore, the fact that my response to the action is what’s being debated here, the fact that Pilgrim Soul has to write a post wondering how one responds or copes with this kind of thing, is the whole problem. It shouldn’t matter if I respond with a lecture or with a joke, because no response should be required. The sexist remark should not have been made in the first place. And sure it happens and we have to figure out how best to deal with it, but that’s a pretty fucked up reality. That I, in your eyes, failed to respond properly is a part of this larger problem.
Thank you! I am so disillusioned with TDS and its Liberal Dude humor (though I admit, the show still has moments of greatness). The love affair ended for me with their segment on the Supreme Court’s partial birth abortion ban ruling. I can’t remember the details, but the correspondent went off on a tangent and the clip had nothing to do with the court or the decision. I was reeling from the majority opinion that women are too emotionally delicate to choose their own medical treatment, and seriously disappointed that Jon Stewart and co. had nothing–NOTHING–to say about this. A lot of their election coverage of Hillary Clinton veered toward mean-spirited, and the first crack they made about Palin referenced sexy librarian porn.
As for coping… I think a worthwhile guy would appreciate you pointing this stuff out, and over time would begin to “get it.” It sucks to have to be the patient educator, but I think that’s the only alternative to political lesbianism.
RE: the side conversation about “harpies” tending to find happiness with zen men: it worked for me. I needed someone who could help mellow me out and calm me down. I knew it was love when I realized my constantly whirring mind can actually quiet down and be still when I’m with him. (Conversely, he sometimes needs someone to prod him to get fired up about things, to speak up for himself, and I’m pretty useful at that.)
Since I’m prone to making sexist remarks about men–in jest! (mostly)–it would be hypocritcal of me to pounce on every sexist thing men say. Maybe something we should all consider? None of us have pure, unbiased, stereotype-free thoughts all the time.
Mac: The list in the clip is as follows: “[The Republicans now have] a black man, an Indian man, and a MILFy wolf huntress.” The conceit of the piece was not that Wyatt Cenac had been racist/sexist/whatever throughout. It was completely unnecessary to use the MILF language.
Becky: No one’s saying anyone has pure, stereotype-free thoughts. However, is the answer to one’s own stereotypes to allow people one cares about to be casually racist or sexist? I doubt it.
@P.Soul: Meh, I thought it was funny, and it’s a stereotype Sarah Palin knocked herself out promoting, so I think it’s fair game. I don’t think we should assume that every single little derogatory comment people make about a woman is necessarily sexist. Sometimes it’s just derogatory of that person and their image, which is what I think this one is.
I occasionally think and have been know to say sexist things about men. I’ve also thought and even said racist, ageist, ableist, (et cetera) things at various points in my life. Just because I said them doesn’t make them right, or okay “just this once,” and they don’t make other people’s sexist/racist/ageist/ableist/et cetera comments okay. I get your “glass houses” point, Becky, but part of what I consider the “pursuit” part of my life is rooting that shit out of my psyche but good. It’s not okay, full stop.
I make derogatory remarks about Sarah Palin all the time. None of them have anything to do with her sexual attractiveness.
But I’m humourless like that.
PS: do you not think that to some extent, sexiness was the reason Sarah Palin even has a chance in the first place? And she’s putting it out there by milking it for all it’s worth? The winks and the peep toe pumps come to mind.
@P.Soul: I mock her sexual attractiveness because it was so obviously the key to her popularity. If she’d looked like, say, Margaret Thatcher, McCain wouldn’t have picked her, the press wouldn’t have salivated over her, and she would probably have had relatively little political success. We all know she never would have gotten by on intellect alone.
Hence, if someone wants to mock her for her MILF-yness, it’s fair game, IMO.
Funnyface: Sure, she’s milking it. Does that mean I want to feed into her complex by giving her attention for it? No. Nor am I particularly eager to encourage those tropes.
Also, one can make a critique of why she is there without using “MILF.” Seriously. Becky just did.