I have been neglecting my Harpy duties of late in favor of a little real world activism about a charming little arthouse flick coming to a theatre near you, Observe and Report. (An excellent summary argument is here.) In essence, what I’ve been trying to do is convince people not to see it, which is a little harder than anticipated. It is particularly difficult, and I don’t mean to overgeneralize but this is true, to convince young men that the movie is deserving of a boycott. If you have a look at the Facebook group started by a good friend of the Harpies, you can see that the membership is overwhelmingly female, which is rather depressing given that it will be young men, mostly, that will be the perpetrators of rapes like the one depicted in the movie.
Now, the good news is that the movie did terribly this weekend. I doubt the rape scene had much to do with that; the aficionados of the genre I’ve talked to said even absent any knowledge of the rape scene, the trailer made the whole movie look kind of lame. (I can’t handle anything more “off-the-wall” than the Simpsons without getting pissed off so I sought outside counsel on the matter.)
So, to some extent, bullet in the form of endless-rehashing-of-scenes-from-this-movie-as-”witticisms”: dodged. Hopefully this movie will soon disappear into the vaults in between Rob Schneider and David Spade films. And yet, I can’t help but be worried, because I didn’t like, at all, the way this discussion proceeded and even how it continues. I could check out comments sections on the various articles about this if I really wanted to get angry, and sometimes that’s fun and cathartic, but mostly the affair has made me sad. Sad because even the brightest of young men in my acquaintance don’t seem to get it. Sad because I knew lots of bright young women who didn’t get it either. And most of all, sad because I don’t know how to fix this.
What I do know how to do, though, is argue. And I do think there are some pretty big commonalities in the conversations we have over scenes like this one, and I think the other side’s position is easily dismissed bullshit. Of course, there are real rape apologists (i.e. those who employ she was drunk/wanted it etc type reasoning) and then there are the people who will readily agree rape is bad and this is probably rape but they’re going to see it anyway.
The latter are, of course, the most infuriating of the bunch. But since they do offer a glimmer of hope for redemption, I’ll usually indulge in a little back-and-forth with these folks. Should you choose to do your small part for activism this way too, I hereby deliver you a primer on how to fend off some of the most common arguments.
1. “I just want to see it before passing judgment.” Here’s the irritating thing about living in a capitalist society driven by money. The makers of films like these are largely indifferent to whether or not you are offended by their work so long as you plunk down the $13.50 or whatever in order to see the film. So, afterwards, when it’s proven that your special snowflake personal opinion matches that of any number of reviewers – that this was a rape scene, and that the experience of watching it was thoroughly gross – you have in fact already used your “vote” by buying the damn ticket. So don’t give me this crap about needing to see a rape scene that was, after all, available for free on the internet.
2. My sense of humour tends towards the offensive, I can’t help it. Jokes rely on shared meaning in order to make you laugh, which is why they’re usually untranslatable; the devil is in the nuances. If you think there’s a big chance that you could find a straightforward depiction of rape “funny,” well, think about who you’re sharing your meanings with. This is a matter in which no prophylactic will guarantee that you will avoid Asshole-by-Association syndrome. Live and learn.
3. It’s just a movie, people need to calm down. Ha. If there’s anything one can say generally about popular culture, it seems to me, it is exactly the opposite of “it doesn’t matter”: it is ENORMOUSLY influential. How many people do you know who can quote entire movie scripts? I don’t think it’s necessary for the causative effect to be one-to-one – I’m not sure I think some kid who previously understood that when a woman is too drunk to consent it’s rape is going to change their mind as a result of the movie. I do think, however, that a kid already inclined to view women as receptacles with tits gets reinforcement from things like this that his worldview is a-ok! And that’s a fucking problem.
4. Depicting rape =/= condoning rape. You know, this is true. Were we to say otherwise, we would be arguing that Dorothy Allison was condoning her own rape in Bastard Out of Carolina, for example. However! It’s been made clear by the filmmakers and the stars of this wretched thing that they vaulted themselves out of this defense because the whole thing isn’t rape! She totally wanted it! And even if they hadn’t made that abundantly clear, a quick perusal of the internet – or hell, critics for prominent national magazines defending their own misogyny on their own blogs – will tell you that there was certainly a contingent that saw it that way. The moral of this story? If you’re not sure whether you’re depicting rape, you may be absolutely certain of the fact that there are tons of men in your audience who will go to any length to get out from under the word “rape,” up to and including using words like “slut.” YOU ARE PROVIDING THEM WITH THE RATIONALIZATION TO RAPE US. Doesn’t that count as “condoning”?
Sally forth and convince, readers! Talking about these issues is hard and annoying and will likely get you into more than one fight. But if it’s one less ticket purchased, that’s one less buck in the pocket of these filmmakers. And that’s gonna matter for something.
What I find particularly infuriating about this controversy is that I’ve read many reviews stating how the filmmakers went to great lengths to mitigate his racism (ie friends of different races) because they didn’t want to offend minorities yet they apparently didn’t give a flying fuck about offending women.
now, I’m not saying giving the guy a black friend (or asian or whatever) mitigates racism, but its telling that the director/producers at least TRIED.
The entire concept of this scene is enraging and triggering to me. I am so afraid that girls will get the idea that things that happen to them aren’t rape thanks to this film. I was drunk, drugged, and raped. I was unconscious. And still, it wasn’t until someone (my now husband) told me, “What happened to you was RAPE and it isn’t your fault” that I finally started to stop blaming myself and process that what happened was rape.
Even if the scene wasn’t an unconscious, slack-mouthed Anna Faris, but was instead just a puking, drugged, drunk Anna Faris, it would still be raped. If you’re not legal to drive on the amount you’ve been drinking, you’re not legal to consent to sex, either. And this movie is just blurring that even further than it already is.
@funnyface: But doesn’t a woman have to be responsible for her own safety to a certain extent? And what if the guy is drunk, too? And how drunk does a woman have to be before she’s incapable of consenting? Stumbling, slurring words, puking? Where do you draw the line? As for me, I’ve consented verbally to some stuff when I was drunk that I would NEVER have done sober. So was I raped? I don’t think so — I think I was an idiot to get that drunk in the first place.
I may be getting O/T here, and if so, I’m sorry to threadjack — feel free to ignore me. I just don’t know how else to respond to the post, because this whole issue gets me so confused.
(Also, I’m pretty sure that alcohol is the root of all bad things in the world. It’s certainly never done a bit of good for me.)
Kivrin: discussing this gets slippery, because it’s sort of like, “at what point can I say, she had it coming?”
But, in the case of this and most other issues, I’d say that clear, verbal consent is a must, and if there’s any doubt or reason to question someone’s ability to consent, then sex should probably not be had. In the case of the scene in the film, the “victim” vomits and passes out. There is no verbal consent.
And no matter how drunk ANYONE is, that’s never an excuse for anyone to lay any kinds of hands on her.
“It’s just a movie” makes me furious. Art matters, even crappy “art” like this. Nothing cultural happens within a vacuum and it’s insulting to presume that people are wholly immune from the influences of entertainment mediums.
I was also particularly annoyed that all involved kept comparing it to Taxi Driver like that made it ok. Newsflash that movie wasn’t a comedy with a happy ending, it actually had a deeper message about the culture we live in and glorify.
@funnyface: It is very slippery, and I hate it. This movie makes me want to get involved with encouraging women NOT to drink to excess. Not because being drunk = asking for it, but because being drunk = lack of control, maybe even saying stuff you don’t mean. I know I have personally consented (enthusiastically) to stuff while drunk that my better judgment would have kept me from doing while sober. So many things in this world are out of our control, better (IMHO) to maintain as much control as possible over your personal safety by not getting trashed.
(Obviously, being drugged is a completely different scenario, and I’m so sorry that happened to you!)
How goddamn disgusting is it though that we live in a culture where it is completely plausible that a dude would enjoy fucking someone who is UNCONSCIOUS?
That’s what I will never get–who wants to fuck someone who hasn’t enthusiastically consented?
Super super disgusting, PS. I mean, it’s sort of along the lines of men with virginity fetishes who get off on girls who are bleeding and in pain during sex.
I like my sex to be with people who are enthusiastically enjoying themselves and enjoying me, period.
On pajiba, the reigning argument it that the director has a 1st amendment right to depict said rape. Oh! and that since she got drunk/high, and agreed to go his place, it’s totally not rape. And… she was a horrible person, so she kinda deserved it, too!
It’s infuriating.
@ps: unsurprising though. look at all those “real dolls” they market.
@Kivrin: Here is what I say to people I know mean well when they say things like you are saying: there’s a difference between a coping strategy and a revolution. Here, the coping strategy is telling young women that like it or not we have to be careful. The revolutionary move, though, is to tell young men: STOP FUCKING RAPING US AND USING OUR DRUNKENNESS AS AN EXCUSE.
Pilgrim et all…
Why would a guy want to screw a woman who’s unconscious? Because the objective for HIM to get his rocks off.
Sick, but true.
@ceejeemcbeegee: dude. call me a harpy (see what I did there?) but I had to stop reading Pajiba because the reviewers/commenters were making me crazy with their constant defense of misogynistic movies. They all style themselves as so “progressive” too.
What I found interesting about the whole Observe and Report discussion is how confused so many people (including me, to some extent) are about the definition of rape. I know so many people who black out while drinking and indulge in sexual activities with sober strangers, that I almost forget that it’s rape.
This type of rape (obviously in a less intense form, but still) is treated as pretty acceptable (i.e. not illegal) behavior, and that’s really the problem with the discussion.
I’d rather spend my time talking to young men about not drinking to excess and then using their intoxicated state as an excuse to attack their fellow human beings.
I personally don’t feel that it’s particularly difficult to discern whether or not you’re overstepping boundaries/taking advantage of someone/whatever euphemism we’re using for rape this week. If there’s any doubt in your mind, don’t have sex with the person. It is not, like, SO DEVASTATING not to have sex one night that it justifies potentially destroying someone else’s life.
Co-sign, PS.
funnyface, the same thing nearly happened to me, except that I was lucky that the attempted rape was interrupted.
@Pilgrim Soul: And here’s what I say: Some problems need multi-pronged approaches. So you lead the revolution, and I’ll market the coping strategy!
Also, here is a mind-blowing notion: WOMEN ARE NOT IN A DEFAULT STATE OF CONSENTING TO SEX WITH YOU. Rather, unless we absolutely and enthusiastically participate in the sex, you are raping us.
Also, my comment may be based on the inordinate amount of sketchy people I know. Carry on.
It is utter bullshit that guys can’t tell when women are too drunk to consent.ie the whole, “lets go pick up drunk women” theory of getting laid.
May, the issue you have identified is, as I say, due to the fact that we all believe, all the time, that women automatically consent to sex unless they go to great lengths to say otherwise. It’s an awesome world we live in.
@KittenFluff: I hear what you’re saying, and I know there are LOTS of asshole guys out there committing rape every day. And they need to fucking stop. BUT…have you ever been drunk to the point of blackout, not knowing what you’re doing? I have. When I drink too much too fast, I can literally be walking around a party, talking to people, apparently conscious, for several hours…but I have no memory of it the next day. If it happens to me, it happens to some guys, too — and I don’t think that counts as “using their intoxicated state as an excuse to attack their fellow human beings.” I think it counts as being way too fucking drunk for ANYONE’s good.
In other words, I stand by my belief that alcohol is bad, bad, bad, and if we got rid of binge drinking, we’d eliminate some of the rapes that happen.
Kivrin: It is a far far different thing for me to black out such that I fail to notice that a dick has been stuck in me than it is for a dude to black out that he has stuck it in someone else without their consent.
(BTW, I can tell I’m going off the rails a bit here, so I’m going to bow out. This topic hits a bit too close to home for me, and I sincerely don’t want to threadjack. Pilgrim Soul et al., thanks for reading.)
I feel like this is the same underlying misogyny that always blames the victim in DV situations and asks endlessly why they don’t leave (they must be asking for it!) instead of questioning why any abuser feels it’s okay to punch a woman. Consent can never be assumed as a given “yes” for any woman, no matter how drunk she is. That assumption (or disregard) is insidious and, as this film shows, pervasive.
Thanks, PS — that is my thinking, too.
Or hell, who needs a dick! If you’re sticking anything in my vagina when I’m too drunk to consent, you’re an asshole.
@Pilgrim Soul: Okay, before I leave, you’ve obviously never blacked out the same way I have. I’ve blacked out to the point where I have enthusiastically consented to, initiated in, and participated in sex, but I wake up the next day not remembering any of it (but knowing I wouldn’t have done it sober). I suspect that some guys may experience the same thing. But perhaps I am a medical mystery. Anyway, honestly, I’m bowing out to let y’all discuss this in a more theoretical fashion. The topic is important, but it’s also the definition of “triggering” for me.
AHHHHHH!!!! ok I just went to Pajiba, “How is it a rape if she consented before she passes out?”
@Kivrin: As far as, “What if the guy was drunk, too?” it has been explained to me thusly: If a drunk driver runs up on the sidewalk and hits the pedestrian, it doesn’t matter if the pedestrian was drunk too, since s/he was acted upon, not the actor.
The murkiness of two drunk people consenting or not consenting isn’t so confusing if we think of consent as a woman saying yes, rather than failing to persuasively say no.
Also, one thing I have learned in my various advocate trainings is that alcohol doesn’t cause people to commit violent crimes. Instead, people who already feel a propensity toward committing violent crimes against women use alcohol or drugs as an excuse to do so.
We need to get away from the idea that being drunk is the variable that causes rape, rather than being in the presence of a rapist.
I’m kind of confused about how this is triggering for YOU, Kivrin, when more and more I’m getting the feeling that what you’re saying is that it’s more important for me not to drink than it is for men to know not to have sex with anyone who has not enthusiastically consented. I get how it’s comforting to think if you’re never drunk, you’ll never be raped, but seriously, that’s just not the case. The fact of being a woman in this society means that sober or not, you’re at risk for being raped.
Kivrin, you are obviously the best person to judge what your experience was, but having known many a rape victim, they said exactly this. And how do you know you did all of these things if you truly blacked out?
@PS: I know because it happened again, just a few months ago, with my fiancé, the man I’ve been dating for 6 years. He was completely shocked to learn the next morning that I remembered NONE of the sexytimes we indulged in after the holiday Christmas party. He thought I was just really horny and uninhibited, when in reality, I was so drunk I had blacked out. Not passed out, mind you — it’s like my brain stopped recording. It’s scary as fuck, and that night after the holiday party was the first time it had happened since The Worst Night of My Life, circa 2002.
The first guy it happened with was completely horrified the next morning, too. “But, you said you wanted to!” Yes, yes, I’m sure I did — but I was also incredibly drunk. And if he hadn’t been so drunk himself, he might have realized that. I suppose I could blame him? But I know how much we both were drinking (before my brain stopped recording), and I honestly don’t think he was capable of discerning that my “yes, let’s do it” was coming from a place of extreme drunkenness.
Maybe my situation is completely unique and rare. It’s certainly different from the scenario in the movie, which is what we were supposed to be discussing, so again, I am really sorry.
All people have a responsibility not to cause other people bodily harm, even whilst drunk. That means women have a responsibility not to attack people whilst drunk, and men have a responsibility not to attack people whilst drunk. That does not mean women have a responsibility not to get attacked whilst drunk.
Kivrin, I believe you when you say you consented even though you had blacked out.
But introducing that scenario is a bit of a red herring, I think, because the topic of discussion is women who are not even ABLE to consent, due to their intoxication. We are not talking about two people, blind drunk, actively engaged with each other sexually. We’re talking a man (drunk or not) acting sexually upon a women who is completely out of it, if not unconscious.
Aaaaand SarahMC does a drive-by with her trademark pithy sense-making.
@SarahMC: I know, which is why I’ve apologized for threadjacking. It is a different scenario, and I shouldn’t have introduced it here.
Also, I really wish these damn comments had a delete button. Ah, the perils of Internet commenting on often sensitive topics…
Thoroughly forwarded in case anyone needs a clue as to exactly why this movie is so offensive.
Thank you.
I sort of wonder how much of this controversy was intentional. As in, they wanted to make a movie so offensive it would generate discussion and interest beyond its actual comedic values. And if that’s the case, I guess they succeeded; it’s pretty sad, though, that what is offensive (and traumatic) is also considered comedy.
Maybe I’m just too much of a snob to understand why anyone would spend more than $10 to see a Seth Rogen movie in the first place? Because beyond the absolute ickiness of the people defending the movie’s rape scene, there are people who are defending it because they actually think it’s worth seeing.
I just noticed the Assweasels tag! PERFECT.
And, SarahMC: “That does not mean women have a responsibility not to get attacked whilst drunk.”
Yes! I think what’s even more disturbing, though, is that a lot of people defending this particular movie don’t see the rape scene as an attack at all. They are somehow not equating rape or lack of consent with trauma, which is telling. And sad.
P.Soul: this is a lovely birthday present. Well done.
And because it bears repeating: THE DEFAULT SETTING IS NO.
I wish I could remember which essay it’s from, but I just read a really spot-on characterization of the “take responsibility” argument in Yes Means Yes. Maybe it was Julia Serano’s; ack I forget.
Anyway, she said that in our patriarchal society, men are considered predators and women prey. All the time. It’s taken as a given and it’s not accompanied by moral condemnation. And when people say women must “take responsibility” in conversations about rape, they are saying that women must never forget that they are prey, and we must conduct ourselves accordingly. So “take responsibility” means “take responsibility for your position in the predator/prey model.” I’m not explaining it well but she states it so, so well.
My therapist explained the alcohol/rape thing to me as follows:
So you got drunk all on your own. You ordered a few drinks, you got a few drinks from friends. You feel responsible for what happened because YOU had those drinks.
Now imagine HE had been the one to buy you all of those drinks. How would you feel about him then? Would he still be completely blameless in your eyes?
It doesn’t matter if he GOT you so drunk you were left basically without will or if YOU got yourself that drunk. He should’ve realised that you were too intoxicated to ever consent.
Me again. But you know what the problem is? We don’t teach our men that alcohol impairs the ability to consent. Add to that the fact that plenty of women enjoy drunk sexytimes and you have a recipe for disaster.
I know this. If I ever have sons or nephews, they will be told that if there’s any doubt if the woman would sleep with them if she were sober, they should take her home, drop her off and make sure she gets inside safely. And alone.
Wow. That made hardly any sense, huh?
@SarahMC, I just downloaded Yes Means Yes on my Kindle (actually before the whole Amazon debacle broke out, sigh… still not sure what to do about that) but I haven’t read it yet. I’m going to find that essay tonight though, so thanks for mentioning it.
we’re back to square one again, which is that far far far too many man see women as “others”. different & lesser than men. prey. objects.
any rational man with sense in his body would conclude that woman are human, just like them. that they enjoy getting drunk, just like them. that when they get drunk, they are in no place to make important decisions, just like them. and that when they lose control, they arent in a position to reasonably aquiesce to being physically penetrated –same as a man.
rapist. the society we live in tells this large percentage of men in the grey that it is ok to be rapists, and then they become rapists. but they are not naive. they have long ago bought the idea that women just are not quite all human, like they are, because it flatters them, it benefits them.
Also: Seth Rogan is a rape apologist.
Jody Hill is a rape apologist.
Anna Faris is a rape apologist.
I hope their names lead to this search more easily.
And i hope their ‘careers’ are wrecked for good. Slide back into anonimity; yesterday is too soon.
Kivrin, I go to Open AA meetings and AlAnon meetings every week. There are stories every week about black out drinkers. It is a specific type of reaction to alcohol, not all alcoholics do this of course. I’m sorry if I didnt read all the posts but I just wanted to say that you are not alone in this affect of alcohol, and you’re not crazy. You might think about quitting, it’s a progressive disease,if you do indeed have it. (In no way am I calling you an alcoholic, I had never heard of blackout drinking either–not passing out, blacking out.)