Comments on: “Responsibility” Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Does

By: romastrega

romastrega — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:52:13 +0000

s.o.a.l.g. hits the point that upsets me the most – why is this always about the women, the abused and what they have to do to stop it/get out? Everyone needs to focus just as much time/energy/thought into teaching all boys & men that it is not acceptable in the first place. And that means wide-sweeping cultural changes from beer ads to news reporting. And sadly, our society has no desire to do that.

By: bellacoker

bellacoker — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:34:56 +0000

The whole “Why doesn’t she just leave?” question pisses me off SO much!! When people are kidnapped we KNOW that sometimes they develop an affection for their kidnappers, sometimes they work to protect those people, sometimes they work against being freed, this is so commonly understood that it has a name, it’s a fucking SYNDROME!

Why is it so hard to see the same thing at work in abusive relationships? And to a greater degree because marriages last longer than kidnappings, the people involved, ideally, chose to enter those relationships, and the abusive spouse probably does love their partner and isn’t an asshole dickface at least some of the time.

By: jdregent

jdregent — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:21:42 +0000

The other really annoying thing about Hirshman’s article is that she acts as if “why does she stay?” is this huge taboo, unanswered question she is not allowed to ask. Ummm, newsflash, we know exactly why she stays: fear, brainwashing, low self esteem, threats of harm, economic dependency, emotional manipulation, ETC ETC ETC AKA EVERYTHING YOU EVER HAVE TO WORK ON AS A WOMAN IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO LEAVE AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP AND THEN FOR YEARS LATER IN THERAPY AND WOMENS SUPPORT GROUPS AT SHELTERS WHICH WERE FORMED BY “UNDERSTANDING” FEMINISTS. Like, what answer does she think she’s gonna get, “because I like getting hit?”

By: PhDork

PhDork — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:54:05 +0000

The entire problem with the “bootstrap” mentality, wherever it’s found, is that it is based on the mistaken idea that everyone, everywhere, has been issued boots.

By: kithkin

kithkin — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:42:37 +0000

What I don’t get is why she seems to feel so dignified and brave saying these things. Like if men have internalized the rugged individualistic ethic, where have women been that they haven’t been hearing it as well? Maybe it’s a function of my age but I feel like I’ve been hearing “if you want to succeed, act like a man” forever. It’s a tired and unhelpful refrain, so I simply don’t understand framing it as some kind of standing-up-to-the-(feminist)-establishment the way Hirshman does.

By: jdregent

jdregent — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:38:48 +0000

Kithkin, I think part of Hirshman’s whole schtick is that (American? one presumes? She never really accounts for her cultural, racial and class biases which are rife throughout all her work) men HAVE absorbed the rugged individualist ideology, which is why they are successful and on top in patriarchy. Instead of critiquing what gets a person power in our society, she tells women to mimic the behavior of the already-powerful in order to gain power ourselves (like in other work she advises women to consciously choose romantic partners who earn less than us so that we can maintain bargaining power over work and home life — men do this all the time by marrying younger, poorer or less educated partners). She is trying the same kind of tactic here, telling women to “act like” men — to not act like victims. But her sort of equality-feminism gone wild approach seems to outright deny the strength of the cultural and biological factors which make us so frequently victims of domestic violence.

By: jdregent

jdregent — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:35:05 +0000

Right PS, I understand that, I’m just saying I understand the impulse to make sure that a victim IDENTITY doesn’t form around the experience of victimization (which is undeniable), and if that is Hirshman’s goal (I am giving her the most generous reading I possibly can) I understand where she is coming from although I think she executes her argument insanely and incorrectly.

By: sarah.of.a.lesser.god

sarah.of.a.lesser.god — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:33:15 +0000

I love living in a society that makes it more convenient/palatable/acceptable/all of the above to talk about the responsibilities of abuse victims than the responsibilities of abusers.

By: kithkin

kithkin — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:26:41 +0000

I am shocked at Hirshman’s assumption that there isn’t enough of the bootstraps bootstraps message in the dominant culture. As if the ideal of rugged individualism wasn’t something that gets crammed down our throats every minute of every day.

By: Pilgrim Soul

Pilgrim Soul — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:26:36 +0000

JD, I’m not sure what any of this has to do with victim identity. I mean, I know that you know this, but women currently, right now, being abused by their male partners are, um, victims. Ain’t nothing wrong with calling that out where it is.