So recently the actress Kat Dennings, who is, depressingly, considered “not-thin” by Hollywood standards, made the following remark to Nylon magazine:
People are obsessed. Like, do you have anything better to do than not eat and go to the gym, you freak? I mean, ask any size zero twit if she’s read a book lately.
Not that anyone really should give a rat’s ass about social theory emerging from the mouths of 22-year-olds anywhere (ooh la la, ageism!) but as soon as I saw she said it I knew people would probably overreact, because nothing seems to annoy thin people more than people generalizing about them. (About people generalizing and stereotyping fat people they have less to say, because it doesn’t affect them.) And this commenting thread? Proved me right. A sampling?
Ok, if we as a country decide to stop stereotyping non-size-zeros, we also need to stop stereotyping size zeros. I couldn’t grow a decent set of curves if I tried, and it’s not because I starve myself and work out all the time. So piss off, Dennings, and let me finish my honors science degree.
“If we as a country”! So cute! When are we voting on this, 2012?
Oh, STFU asshole. I am a size 0, eat normally, and rarely go to the gym. I also read books, and hold a job that is substantially more intellectually demanding than appearing in such fine cinematic masterpieces as Big Momma’s House 2, The House Bunny, and The 40 year Old Virgin. Get over yourself.
Nothing is more effective than the old, “I’m smarter and MUCH LESS OF A SELLOUT than you” defense.
Fair warning: if you found yourself nodding in agreement to either of these comments you might want to stop here, because I’m about to go a bit hardline.
As the veins in my forehead began swelling I was reminded of how twitchy I got recently when SarahMC and I did this post about thin privilege. (FYI, we were later informed about this post, with a similar title, and I think I speak for both of us when I say it’s recommended reading.) What was I annoyed about? I felt like I had been hijacked. Being a white ciswoman from a privileged economic class, it ain’t all that often my hackles get raised in this specific way by anybody who is not in possession of a penis. Usually, with some exceptions (I’m lookin’ at you, Palin) women can be counted on to be on my side. But I gotta tell you, from this side of the fence, it really sucks that when I complain about the way society shames me and makes me feel about my body – on the “objective” grounds of “science” and “health” – the response I get from thin women is almost universally, “oh, but let me tell you about the time I totally hated this bikini I tried on, that happens to everybody.”
No, it doesn’t. Correction: no, it goddamn doesn’t. You tried on the bikini. I didn’t even bother. It wasn’t going to fit me or look in any vague way flattering. Even if I liked the way it looked, it would be irrelevant, because people would still goddamn stare at me on the beach for having the audacity to wear it. You have the privilege of believing beauty to be subjective; every experience and run-in I have had with the culture tells me I cannot get there at the dress size I am now. You can watch movies about eating disorders where people with body shapes that have been societally identified as “healthy” develop eating disorders. You can identify with them and say “ah, I have body dysmorphia!” Whereas I just see those movies and know that I am, indeed, fat, by any standard of the term. My seeing myself as fat, if it is a delusion, it is a collective one: it is not in my head. I am not fat only to myself. I am fat to the store clerks who eye me up and down and ask, “Shall I get you an extra large?” I am fat to the men who will never date me even if they think my face is pretty. I am fat to the designers who have no idea how to make clothes that suit my shape. I am not only fat in my head.
And no, you are not being a sufficient ally to the not-thin when your only response to them – when they raise their voices in legitimate anger about the fact that it is they who are expected to behave differently rather than the people who use their size against them – is to think about yourself. To get offended on behalf of thin women everywhere when the comment was clearly not directed at you. Or to generalize the problem (“all women should love their bodies”). Sure the problem exists at a general level. Sure this is a feminist issue. But it’s not a feminist issue only because you happen, yourself, to feel some of its effects. It’s a feminist issue because, goddamnit, it should make you angry to see me put down this way. It should bother you independently of any injury to your sense of self. I wish I had some vague clue as to why it doesn’t seem to.
And you know, even now, writing this, I’m not sure if I’m going to be able to read the comments on this thread without getting extremely upset. Because I know that someone is going to come in and tell me that I am starting the oppression Olympics by maintaining that this society’s specific and targeted oppression of fat people is a problem worth acknowledging. I know that I will contrast them with the supportive comments my fellow Harpy sarah.of.a.lesser.god deservedly got on her ED post. I know that someone will say, “The important thing is health,” as if I didn’t know that. And I know that it will feel like you don’t give a shit about what fat people go through, every day, often at from your own mouth whether or not you actively bodysnark. Because when you say nothing about the general condition of this society, which is to say that thin bodies are privileged over fat ones, you are silently aiding and abetting its continued hegemony.
Kithkin it is always difficult to know if it is better to announce one’s privilege when it is invisible or to be silent about it.
Okay, now that I have recovered from PilgrimSoul’s baseless and offensive ageism, I will comment in earnest.
I thought the outrage that met Dennings’s comment was interesting for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was the obvious defensiveness almost everyone displayed. But what’s really interesting to me is the fact that currently in our society I’d say it’s pretty obvious that being a “twit” (which, the way Dennings uses it, sounds to me less like a “stupid” person and more like someone who values appearances over education, wisdom, knowledge) is infinitely more acceptable than being fat. So where does the rage come from?
@RocktheDebit and bellacoker: Thanks for the feedback! I didn’t know that about Old Navy, and, while I don’t shop there regularly anyway, I will certainly pay more attention to that kind of thing from now on.
JD: you’re right, and I guess I outed myself in this thread as a person who is thin and I don’t know how obvious my discomfort is, but it’s palpable at least on this side of the screen.
Khruschev: But what’s really interesting to me is the fact that currently in our society I’d say it’s pretty obvious that being a “twit” (which, the way Dennings uses it, sounds to me less like a “stupid” person and more like someone who values appearances over education, wisdom, knowledge) is infinitely more acceptable than being fat. So where does the rage come from?
What I got out of the thread was “hooray, an excuse to brag about how thin I am and my recent purchase of (insert impressive-sounding, preferably long book here) and my graduate degrees!” more than anything else. I also think that jezebel is a different community, and the commenters there pride themselves on being “smart,” or reading a lot or what have you and so consider themselves a different breed. There’s a lot of in-group “jezzies are so smart and logical” masturbatory comments flying around and so I think the Dennings quote made people defensive because Hey, I belong in the smart club because I’m part of this special, smart community and also I am thin and beautiful. I can (and should and do) have it all!
@Pilgrim Soul: Yeah, gotcha. Also, I was probably focusing more on “seeing both sides of the story” than was really necessary due to my personal experiences with being two drastically different sizes, and dealing with hurtful experiences with both.
Also,@Khrushchev, this is an excellent point: “But what’s really interesting to me is the fact that currently in our society I’d say it’s pretty obvious that being a “twit” (which, the way Dennings uses it, sounds to me less like a “stupid” person and more like someone who values appearances over education, wisdom, knowledge) is infinitely more acceptable than being fat. So where does the rage come from?”
That’s a really good question.
Also, there is a certain irony in that when these commenters who rush to say “but I read so many books and I am so skinny!” are revealing themselves to be people who care deeply about their appearance, to the exclusion (at the very least) of caring about being aware of their privilege or empathy for a fat person in our society.
Oooops.
I read (ok skimmed) the thread this morning. I really don’t understand why people got SO UPSET. It seemed to be a flip off the cuff remark about (like JD points out) a small subset of people she probably deals with all the time. Really I don’t think it justified umpteen responses of, but I had/knew someone who had and eating disorder and it was HORRIBLE! It was odd.
Kruschev, I totally agree that all the defensiveness and anger at what was a pretty inoffensive comment was interesting.
@Pilgrim: Virtually everyone who has agreed with me is herself not a size-zero, and those who have not agreed are uniformly self-identifying as “thin” types. That says something to me.
And I will freely admit that my response in the past probably would have been more knee-jerk, partly because EDs feed a certain kind of obsession/paranoia about oneself so that every comment is about you you you.
@PhDork: That Minnesota experiment was required reading at my ED inpatient treatment. I’m not sure how it was supposed to help me, but it was fascinating anyway.
@Khrushchev: You pretty much singlehandedly restore my faith in people five years younger than I am, since my faux-philosopher/real pretentious twit sister usually manages to obliterate that faith. Kudos!
Khrushchev is on the list to live at the Harpy House at some undefined point in the future.
As for the website that shall not be named and its commenting community, well, I’ve been opining too much on that lately. But at a general level, I think that people get all ragey because their position is threatened when women like Dennings, however inarticulately, call thin culture out. I know that it’s somewhat subconscious. But i don’t kid myself that young women anywhere, of any size, feel particularly stable on the beauty front, and on one level I can understand their wanting to cling to what few bones of self-esteem the culture throws at them. That doesn’t mean I’m gonna give them props for doing so beyond all measure of reason, though.
@Kithkin: I get upset when people are assumed to have qualities you couldn’t possibly derive from their appearance or other outwardly obvious markers. It is possible to talk about privilege without attaching false generalizations to that group.
I’m sort of at a loss here– I agree with Pilgrim Soul and the comment thread in response to Dennings is for the most part truly disgusting. However, the thrust of this discussion thread seems to be all or nothing in terms of agreement, and what I am trying to say is that I find the initial quote problematic.
When I did not agree wholeheartedly I was in not so many words dismissed: “Virtually everyone who has agreed with me is herself not a size-zero, and those who have not agreed are uniformly self-identifying as “thin” types. That says something to me.” Again, the assumption is that my (presumed) body type is driving my opinions. It’s circular logic to assume (no less in a forum where you literally can’t view your fellow debaters) that people who agree with you are probably “fat” and that people who don’t are “thin” and thereby complements your view of the situation.
Oh thank the lord. I thought my head was going to explode reading some of those comments. Haven’t been back to Jez today. Just don’t have the power.
Funny, the vibe I got when reading the angry comments on that thread was the same I’ve gotten on pretty much any post on the web pointing out sexism: “What about the menz??”
Or, in this case, “what about the thinz?”
@jetgirl: Yeah, exactly that. Let’s spend half our energy addressing how sexism hurts men, and how sizeism hurts thin people! And then, if anybody objects to equal airtime for people who already receive mainstream commendation at our expense, we can accuse them of playing oppression olympics.
Shannon, J.D. Regent posted a longer version of Kat Dennings’ quotation above, and someone posted an even longer version of it in the original thread, and here it is. In context, I think it’s pretty benign:
“Dennings adds that she’s been going through a bit of a real-life confidence crisis lately. “I’m trying desperately not to read my IMDb message board – anything you can throw, they throw,” she says… “all I get is that I’m too fat, my nose is weird, my teeth are bad…” She says these things with a casual, “eh, whaddya gonna do?” attitude. But she admits the insults can hurt. “I never thought about my looks that much because of how I grew up – it was not important. So all of a sudden, I’m hideous, and it sucks.” … “Hopefully, the tide is going to be turning. Personally, when I see a movie starring the perfect blah girl with the perfect hunk guy, I’m just like ‘Oh, screw this. I don’t wanna watch this. Who cares what happens to you guys?’” she says, laughing. “I love my career, and I know that looks are a huge part of it, but people are obsessed. Like, ‘Don’t you have other things to do than not eat and go to the gym, you freak?’” On a role now, with her bravado and wit in full force, she adds: “I mean, ask any size-0 twit if she’s read a book lately.” ”
So, I think she’s pretty clearly talking about Hollywood and the people she’s competing with for roles, saying that she’d rather get over that pressure and cultivate other interests besides working out in order to a more fulfilling life. I don’t think it’s being applied to every size zero person in the world, just people who are focused on their bodies at the expense of all other interests and become “twits” as a result (as others have commented above). So I guess I’m unsure what’s offensive about that. I think that, by taking the quotation out of context on the other website, the editor incited an unnecessary shitstorm (not that that was the only problem).
In an attempt to lighten the mood in a really bad taste sort of way… (I’m three hours into a bottle of rum and it’s still 91 degrees)
a) She said size zero twits. I like to think that the ‘twits’ was the most important distinction, not the size zero. As in English the most important adjective comes last. (or is that Russian?)
b) I’m overweight and know it. Have been most my life. I’ve finally decided to start ‘working out’ in a very minimal sense to see if something will change. No one should be sidelined from society because of weight, but I’m just as superficial as the next bastard and know it happens all.the.time.
c) I had a third point two minutes ago…Probably something about every being prejudiced in someway, thus everyone being a victim of someone else’s prejudice, and really, arguing about who takes precedence has always wound up casting feminism in a bad light (Anthony vs Douglas take 23045), so while it is definitely something that needs to be said, the rooftops are not a good place for a soapbox. (And no, that didn’t make sense to me either, it just sounded poetically bastard-like.)
d) A black person insulted me once!!!!!111!!ONE
@mysterygirl!: If the amount of postings on the issue is any sort of “poll,” the editor (I think Dodai) incited an absolutely necessary shitstorm.
Oh boo, I’m late to this as usual. But I agree with you, PS. Comparing the kind of criticism you get as a thin person to what you get as a not-thin person (much less as a fat person) is absurd. They aren’t comparable at all. And I’m thin and not at all offended by her statement. I read Shapely Prose and I consider myself a fat acceptance (ally, I guess?) and I REALLY do not get what all the self-righteous bullshit from the Jez readers was all about. Perhaps they really don’t understand the concept of privilege? Not surprising, I guess, but disappointing.
AND HEY! I’m 22 as of last week! I CLEARLY never say stupid shit. Clearly. The mellifluous sounds flowing from my mouth are truly gifts to anyone lucky enough to hear them. Never awkwardly worded or offensive at all. No way.
Hee! You’re right though. People my age do tend to say dumb shit. Sorry :/
Aspiring expat, I guess I disagree that very much of what happened on that board was necessary, or that number of comments reveals importance (e.g. “Do men eat yogurt?” currently ranks immediately below that Kat Dennings post in number of comments). I think a lot of people got riled up and defensive who wouldn’t have if they had seen the entire quotation– the post was a little disappointing and ironic to me, coming from a website that prides itself on (and I think often succeeds at) parsing through commentary and understanding entire issues rather than relying on often-misleading soundbytes to form opinions.
I think that the long thread that PS started there, and the post and comments here, are the most worthwhile things to come from this, so in that I think we agree.
(I can’t tell if my thought process was clear above, although it was logical in my mind: I don’t think the 300+ comments implied that yogurt was something that definitely needed to be discussed : ) )
I know I missed the actual conversation, but I just wanted to pop in to add a huge “Thank you” for this discussion. That post on Jezebel was largely a clusterfuck of frustration, and I really appreciate your thoughtful response.
Clear enough. Besides I skimmed, as I’m still drinking rum. I should stop soon.
i was thin as a young person, and have gained a LOT of weight-i can tell you that i am treated VERY differently as a fat person. though, i do have to say that people often seemed very worried about my health when i was thin-even though i did nothing to cause it.
[...] shan’t repeat myself on thin privilege, or on why the perspectives of the not-thin should not threaten thin people so much as they seem to. I get that thin women also have experiences of body image, and I [...]