So recently the actress Kat Dennings, who is, depressingly, considered “not-thin” by Hollywood standards, made the following remark to Nylon magazine:
People are obsessed. Like, do you have anything better to do than not eat and go to the gym, you freak? I mean, ask any size zero twit if she’s read a book lately.
Not that anyone really should give a rat’s ass about social theory emerging from the mouths of 22-year-olds anywhere (ooh la la, ageism!) but as soon as I saw she said it I knew people would probably overreact, because nothing seems to annoy thin people more than people generalizing about them. (About people generalizing and stereotyping fat people they have less to say, because it doesn’t affect them.) And this commenting thread? Proved me right. A sampling?
Ok, if we as a country decide to stop stereotyping non-size-zeros, we also need to stop stereotyping size zeros. I couldn’t grow a decent set of curves if I tried, and it’s not because I starve myself and work out all the time. So piss off, Dennings, and let me finish my honors science degree.
“If we as a country”! So cute! When are we voting on this, 2012?
Oh, STFU asshole. I am a size 0, eat normally, and rarely go to the gym. I also read books, and hold a job that is substantially more intellectually demanding than appearing in such fine cinematic masterpieces as Big Momma’s House 2, The House Bunny, and The 40 year Old Virgin. Get over yourself.
Nothing is more effective than the old, “I’m smarter and MUCH LESS OF A SELLOUT than you” defense.
Fair warning: if you found yourself nodding in agreement to either of these comments you might want to stop here, because I’m about to go a bit hardline.
As the veins in my forehead began swelling I was reminded of how twitchy I got recently when SarahMC and I did this post about thin privilege. (FYI, we were later informed about this post, with a similar title, and I think I speak for both of us when I say it’s recommended reading.) What was I annoyed about? I felt like I had been hijacked. Being a white ciswoman from a privileged economic class, it ain’t all that often my hackles get raised in this specific way by anybody who is not in possession of a penis. Usually, with some exceptions (I’m lookin’ at you, Palin) women can be counted on to be on my side. But I gotta tell you, from this side of the fence, it really sucks that when I complain about the way society shames me and makes me feel about my body – on the “objective” grounds of “science” and “health” – the response I get from thin women is almost universally, “oh, but let me tell you about the time I totally hated this bikini I tried on, that happens to everybody.”
No, it doesn’t. Correction: no, it goddamn doesn’t. You tried on the bikini. I didn’t even bother. It wasn’t going to fit me or look in any vague way flattering. Even if I liked the way it looked, it would be irrelevant, because people would still goddamn stare at me on the beach for having the audacity to wear it. You have the privilege of believing beauty to be subjective; every experience and run-in I have had with the culture tells me I cannot get there at the dress size I am now. You can watch movies about eating disorders where people with body shapes that have been societally identified as “healthy” develop eating disorders. You can identify with them and say “ah, I have body dysmorphia!” Whereas I just see those movies and know that I am, indeed, fat, by any standard of the term. My seeing myself as fat, if it is a delusion, it is a collective one: it is not in my head. I am not fat only to myself. I am fat to the store clerks who eye me up and down and ask, “Shall I get you an extra large?” I am fat to the men who will never date me even if they think my face is pretty. I am fat to the designers who have no idea how to make clothes that suit my shape. I am not only fat in my head.
And no, you are not being a sufficient ally to the not-thin when your only response to them – when they raise their voices in legitimate anger about the fact that it is they who are expected to behave differently rather than the people who use their size against them – is to think about yourself. To get offended on behalf of thin women everywhere when the comment was clearly not directed at you. Or to generalize the problem (“all women should love their bodies”). Sure the problem exists at a general level. Sure this is a feminist issue. But it’s not a feminist issue only because you happen, yourself, to feel some of its effects. It’s a feminist issue because, goddamnit, it should make you angry to see me put down this way. It should bother you independently of any injury to your sense of self. I wish I had some vague clue as to why it doesn’t seem to.
And you know, even now, writing this, I’m not sure if I’m going to be able to read the comments on this thread without getting extremely upset. Because I know that someone is going to come in and tell me that I am starting the oppression Olympics by maintaining that this society’s specific and targeted oppression of fat people is a problem worth acknowledging. I know that I will contrast them with the supportive comments my fellow Harpy sarah.of.a.lesser.god deservedly got on her ED post. I know that someone will say, “The important thing is health,” as if I didn’t know that. And I know that it will feel like you don’t give a shit about what fat people go through, every day, often at from your own mouth whether or not you actively bodysnark. Because when you say nothing about the general condition of this society, which is to say that thin bodies are privileged over fat ones, you are silently aiding and abetting its continued hegemony.
If I wouldn’t get the stinkeye from my colleagues I would stand up at my desk and clap. Yes on all counts.
I missed that thread while it was going on, read it this morning while getting ready for work. With each successive “Well I’m a size 0 and I read…” post I felt my blood pressure rising. It wasn’t until I got to your post that I stopped feeling like *I* was the crazy one. So thank you.
I’m not sure how to respond without making this about me, at least for a second…so here goes: What can I, as a thin person, do to make things better for the not-thin? You’re obviously very angry, hurt, etc., so I have to ask: What kind of response do you want from your thin sisters? I want to help — or at least not hurt — but I don’t know how. And it sucks that the not-thin would have to “teach” the privileged thin, but the alternative is for someone like me to keep bumbling along and insulting the not-thin by merely existing. So please, tell me what to do to make things better.
Kivrin, no one is offended by your mere existence. What is annoying is when the thin only seem interested in body acceptance/body stereotyping on behalf of other thin women. When they exchange dress sizes thoughtlessly on the internet. When being too thin is (rightly) described as a health condition, but being too fat is something you should just take care of with self-discipline and South Beach. When you try to “sympathize” with fat women by talking about your own body woes, which, note, I am not saying do not exist, but I greatly disagree that they are the same. As I said, above, for a fat person, the fact that they are fat is not body dysmorphia. It is social truth.
I am TOTALLY with you. The treatment that fat and thin women get is not.the.same. NOT THE SAME.
Kivrin, as someone who does not identify as fat, but who agrees with the sentiments of this post wholeheartedly, I think a good place to begin is not to deny thin privilege (not that i have ever heard you specifically do this) as in the policy of that website which will not be named to treat discussions of fatness and thinness as if they were equal afflictions in society. I think PS tells us what to do — be angry on behalf of the way fat women are treated, and don’t automatically turn it around and make it about thin women and our struggle.
Kat Dennings was the one in that stupid movie with the boy from Arrested Development right? Who designated her not-thin? They mean she has boobs right? Come on, people. Thin women can’t even begin to recognize our privilege if you keep moving the goalpost and trying to trick us into thinking we are fat.
@jdregent: Thanks. I just wish I could do more than just (a) not deny thin-privilege and (b) get angry on behalf of the not-thin! Baby steps are better than nothing, though…
Long time lurker, just wanting to say A-FUCKIN-MEN.
In that particular thread that PS is talking about, it is especially weird bc Kat is clearly talking about women in Hollywood, not thin women generally, and people seem to be supporting the notion that all or most thin women in Hollywood are “naturally” thin… i mean I am sure most are at least naturally inclined to a certain level of thinness but if you think that what actresses do to stay that tiny are “natural” or “healthy” you have either a. never worked in entertainment, lived in LA or known any actors or b. are in denial, because 98% of movie actresses literally starve themselves, and the honest ones will admit it. If you starve yourself and still don’t get that tiny you don’t get to be an actress. I just get sick of not being able to call a spade a spade because of some ridiculous equation of thinness and fatness as markers of success or failure in this society.
I said it last night, and I’ll say it again — I agree wholeheartedly with this post. I also missed the Kat Dennings thread, praise be to God. The thing is that discussions like this so often devolve into choruses of “thin people are humans too!” That doesn’t accomplish anything, because if there is any segment of society viewed as “less than” for their weight, it is definitely not thin people.
It is interesting that you linked to my ED post last week, because I do think they are linked. If thin privilege did not exist, EDs would not be so rampant. This is not to say at all that EDs are a glorified crash diet, because I know better than that, but the desperation accompanying body dysmorphia has a strong component that is fed by thin privilege. However, the hatred of our own bodies is not something that comes from without, it is something that comes from within, and that is the crucial distinction between body dysmorphia in those who have thin privilege, and the experiences (including or excluding body dysmorphia) of those who don’t.
I say this as a nominally thin person (I know we have had personal discussions about this, but please try to understand that it’s hard with my history to call myself “thin”): my body is simply not subjected to the derision and disgust that other body types are. To pretend otherwise would be bullshit.
And, to point to my last paragraph, this is not to say that just because I have issues calling myself thin does not mean I recognize my own privilege. That word is just too loaded for me to use comfortably.
I hear you Sarah, I’ve never struggled with self image in the weight department but even I hesitated before acknowledging I was not fat (like it was rude or something? Or then you would meet me and be like well it’s not like you’re SKINNY either JD. fucked up).
I do think that positive reinforcement at the early stages of ED can feed it in some cases. Obviously ED are about more than wanting to fit a beauty ideal but the associations of thinness not only with beauty but with discipline, correctness, control, cleanliness, etc. all do play in (at least in all the people with ED I have known, not an expert myself) and I think it is a mistake to discount these societal messages in favor of a totally medical or genetic or trauma based model of understanding ED although those factors clearly play roles to different extents with different people. I remember my best friend had quite serious anorexia in college related to grief (in recovery now) and I remember her father coming to visit once and telling her how good she looked. I nearly murdered the man.
Pilgrim Soul – when I read that thread this morning I cursed my timezone for making me several hours late EVERY bloody time. The sense of entitlement was frequently unbearable, you dealt with it extremely well.
I really had a hard time with all the ‘you’re just jealous because I’m thin and smart’ nonsense. My particular favourite was the one commenter who felt that her recent purchase of 100 Year of Solitude was proof enough against Kat Jenning’s oppressive lies.
I love all of you.
I’m also struck by JD’s point re the fact that it’s assumed that the actresses she directs this at are “naturally thin,” which I wish I had thought to articulate…
@Pilgrim @JD: Having seen several of these “naturally thin” actresses very up close and personal, and having my own experiences with what constitutes “unnaturally thin,” I think it’s safe to say that Dennings was accurate in that realm. Diet and exercise do indeed work wonders — if that’s ALL you do every day.
WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with this post. I missed the Kat Dennings thread on Jezebel (as I’ve been stepping back marginally from Jez of late), but I read it this morning and sighed. I’m not belittling the problems thin women face, but: I doubt many of them have been gifted with disgusted “How dare you even exist?” looks as frequently as I have.
Y’know, if the world economy keeps heading down the crapper, maybe being heavy and/or pale will once again become symbols of privilege! I may be screwed on the first part — stupid thin genes — but oh my, would I ever be rocking the pale-and-privileged look…
(I’m trying really hard right now NOT to apologize for injecting a bit of lightheartedness into the discussion!)
Sarah it is horrifying to meet movie actresses in person. Like I have trouble being in a normal conversation and not offering my arm for them to lean on. Don’t tell me that is bodysnarking when body hatred runs rampant through womanity because these women who spend 20 hours a week no exaggeration calorie burning are supposed to be our ideal. What is the real enemy of our progress on body acceptance? Is it Kat Dennings calling out these women for spending more time exercising than reading (COME ON do even YOU spend 20 hours a week reading books??? Or doing anything for yourself or the improvement of your mind and relationships?) ? Or is it our DEFENSE of these overworked, starved bodies as normal, admirable, preferable, neutral, and in no way opposed to human progress that is our enemy?
a. both thin and fat bodies can be loveable and attractive
b. both thin and fat bodies can be signs of ill health or self hatred
c. but only one of these bodies is privileged in society, is paid more, is represented in media almost exclusively, is allowed to be desired and loved.
Kivrin, it’s the upside of a food-insecure society, for sure.
I just read that thread this morning and was so glad you came out swinging, and strong. And didn’t back down. I did live in L.A.-thru my 20s and 30s and knew many HWood types. It was brutal, for all involved.
I don’t think I commented on your last post about thin privilege, because being nominally-thin/not-fat myself, I didn’t feel like I had anything to add (and nothing is annoying like privileged people sweating their own privilege). But I definitely learned from it.
You know what drives me crazy? Overly sensitive privileged people. Sure, we should not stereotype people based on dress size, blah blah blah. But is it worth getting so worked up about? YOU GET TO BE SIZE ZERO. If the price you have to pay is an occasional snarky comment from Kat Dennings, well, I will trade body types with you any day.
I think one of the exercises of privilege that I missed in my head until right now is that…honestly? You can prove that you’re smart if you have to. If you are a size 0 and someone calls you a twit who never reads, you can (as someone on Jez did) bust out the, “Oh, 1000 Years of Solitude, what now beeyotch?” line. But I don’t think there’s a recourse like that when someone calls you necessarily unattractive, or lazy, or lacking in self-control, or what have you, if you are fat. Even if you say, “Well, I jog every morning” or “Boys come knocking on my door every night”, I think people probably assume that you’re lying or at best an outlier.
Hmm.
@JD: Yes, I think we as a society collude in this farce that a super-skinny frame is natural/ achievable/in-born. It’s that “effortlessly perfect” thing.
(Collude in a farce? English is escaping me this morning, but you know what I mean.)
Accusing somebody of starting “Oppression Olympics” is just another way for people to silence someone whose complaint makes them uncomfortable. It’s right up there with saying, “You’re too emotional,” or “You’re angry, I’m not listening to you.” Anger and outspokenness are actually the logical responses to oppression, but then again, patriarchy isn’t exactly logical.
I understand that thin women deal with patriarchy too, I really do, but the fact remains that they will always be treated better than those of us rendered invisible because of our weight or plainness. Yeah, “invisible” is about right–nobody wants a fat woman around until there’s some crummy work to do, and then suddenly it’s all, “Hey, we could use your help.” It doesn’t matter how smart we are, how qualified, how kind; the best thing we fat broads can do is just not bother other people with our presence. And we can forget about being listened to at work, or in a group conversation, or having someone respect our ideas, because we’re practically non-persons.
I cannot tell you how often over my 32 years I’ve seen this play out, again and again. And yes, if I say anything about it, I’m told I’m “too sensitive,” “making things up,” or some other equivalent to “starting the Oppression Olympics.” It’s apparently the duty of fat/plain women to meekly accept the abuse and invisibility heaped on us as just recompense for our inexcusable size and appearance, and any assertion to the contrary is just too crazy for society to contemplate.
Ugh. I hate, hate, hate when skinny women do that. Ages ago on a local board we had a forum for plus-size women to share shopping tips and war stories. And it was specifically labeled for “PLUS-SIZE SHOPPERS.”
Along comes this new poster, talking about how she totally got it, because it was so HARD for her to find a size 2 anywhere.
She got banned so fast her head spun, and the mods were very, very gentle in explaining that this was not her place, etc… Which resulted in her boyfriend coming into the forum to tell us we were all a bunch of fat jealous cows.
Yeah. Even at my thinnest and eating-disorder-est, I was a size 10. It was great. I was eating next to nothing and exercising 2-3 hours a day, and wondering why I caught every cold that came down the pike, and people were still telling me I was too “hippy” or should work a little harder.
Right now I’m a size 22, and finally learning to just deal with it. I’m learning to quit waiting until I achieve the “fantasy of thin” as Kate Harding puts it, to do stuff. It’s taken me years to be able to eat at all intuitively, and to stand up to doctors when they tell me that I’m lying about how much and what I eat and how much exercise I get. It takes a lot of work and effort, and tears. Lots and lots of tears.
I agree wholeheartedly with this post (and I say this as a former size-whatever person who used to hear all sorts of nasty things about my weight).
However, it still comes down to the fact that women’s bodies are decidedly up for public consideration, no matter the size, no matter if she is an actor or not. Neither my overweight brother not my bordering underweight best friend face near the judgment women do regarding their appearance.
And it is never going to stop if we keep up with comments like Kat’s, or (obviously) with the fat-shaming that takes place every day.
First I have to say you are absolutly right. It is harder to be a large person (especially if you are a woman) than to be a thin person. I am lucky that I don’t have to deal with the disgusted stares, muttered comments (but loud enough for everyone to hear) about how she shouldn’t be wearing that… And anyone who denys this is being an idiot.
While I still don’t agree that thin people shouldn’t be allowed to speak about their problems, I do think we need to think more about the problems of heavier people; the two are linked afterall. ED isn’t a thin person problem; heavy people can suffer from anorexia and bulemia just as much as a thin person. When anyone larger than a size 0 is considered too big, both a thin size 8 and a heavy size 20 suffer.
We need to remember that we are all in the same war against bodily opression, and those of you who are heavy are on the front lines and get hit first. Those of us who are thin need to be better with our aim and make sure we are hitting our targets and not our heavier sisters in the front lines.
…I hope I didn’t take too much liberty and go off topic to much.
I don’t think there is any way to comment on this without bursting into tears. Thank you Pilgrim Soul for writing this essay.
It is painful to live through this when my skinny cousins treated as, ‘Oh you poor skinny things, enjoy an ice-cream!’ whereas I am the ‘lumpy miserable excuse of a person for not having the self-discipline to take care of myself.’
@ jdregent:
a. both thin and fat bodies can be loveable and attractive
b. both thin and fat bodies can be signs of ill health or self hatred
c. but only one of these bodies is privileged in society, is paid more, is represented in media almost exclusively, is allowed to be desired and loved.
thank you for this.
Alyssa & Wishingwellread: Not to attack you, but both of you are perpetuating the same problem here that I am talking about in the post. No one is saying that fat women ought to be ascendant or some nonsense like that. I am saying that fat women are human and deserving of dignity, and that society, by and large, never believes this to be the case, and that emphasizing this is super-important in ending body-hate. But you are deploying a conversational strategy that seeks to destroy that emphasis by claiming this has anything to do with “silencing” thin women.
P.Soul, this is so excellent and real and smart. I stayed out of that Kat Dennings thread because it degenerated into complete idiocy–which, if anything, only proves your point. Thin Privilege exists and it enrages me, even though I would be regarded as thin by most people. I’m not subjected to the same level of societal scrutiny and hateration, but that doesn’t make me blind to the fact that it exists, or to being angry about it–particularly because it is very much a feminist issue and all feminist issues demand my support.
In general, it enrages me that women WILL NOT SHUT THE FUCK UP snarking on each other when it comes to weight. Seriously, I sometimes think the only way to create any semblance of human decency on this issue to impose some kind of gag order: “Okay, no one is allowed to talk about anyone else’s weight anymore EVER. Y’all have proved you couldn’t handle it and now you need to sit down and shut up. FOREVER.”
(Yeah, yeah, First Amendment, whatever.)
Hell yeah, P.Soul. And, in case anyone had doubts about how fucked up we are about the “naturalness” and acceptability of Hollywood standards of thin, please check out Sweet Machine’s post at Shapely Prose about how extreme calorie restriction was used as a not-torture technique for war-on-terra detainees. Also click through to read about the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, which I had never heard of before, and which is both horrifying and amazing.
Oooh, that Sweet Machine post is good stuff.
And yeah, Becky, I know, thank you. I think I probably speak for all of us when I say we’re not particularly interested on this website at least on your “measurements,” as they appear to be standardly-recited in all body image posts elsewhere on the web.
Thank you for writing about this, Pilgrim.
@BeckySharper: This might be a topic for another day, but…I do find it horribly fascinating that women are doing this to each other. I wonder how much of it can be traced back to The Patriarchy. What do y’all think? If most women weren’t competing for the attention (sexual or otherwise) of men, would we spend so much time tearing each other down?
I don’t see how someone standing up for themselves because it was implied that a whole swath of people were stupid is a problem for you. I find that really offensive, regardless if the group at hand being called stupid is fat, thin, Asian, trans, whatever.
I do want to clarify– the comments thread in response is ridiculous and offensive and not the least bit constructive in it’s critique, at least what you cited, but the initial comment and it’s generalizations about the intelligence and priorities of people based on their appearance is also offensive.
Pilgram Soul: I can see how I was unclear, but I wasn’t trying to take away from the point of your post, which I completely understand and agree with. I was trying to say the same basic idea that Beckysharper expressed a few comments below mine: “In general, it enrages me that women WILL NOT SHUT THE FUCK UP snarking on each other when it comes to weight. Seriously, I sometimes think the only way to create any semblance of human decency on this issue to impose some kind of gag order…”
So, that’s all I was trying to say, expressing sadness and frustration that women’s bodies of all sizes are judged more harshly than men’s but I see now that this was not the post to say that.
If Kat becomes the next Ganine Garofalo, I will be very happy.
In the meantime, 22 year olds make mistakes. Lots of them. Let’s let the lady learn (alliteration! FTW) in her own time.
Kinda like what life did for us.
Shannon: It seems to me obvious that she was criticizing women who are obsessed with their weight and consequently are size zeroes as opposed to “size zeroes are naturally stupid.” “Size zero” is, after all, a modifier on “twit” in that sentence. And, it’s on Hollywood women, as other people have discussed in this thread.
I think the only reason one would interpret it as saying something about “thin women” as a class is because the reader lacks a certain understanding of how body image actually works in this culture. Virtually everyone who has agreed with me is herself not a size-zero, and those who have not agreed are uniformly self-identifying as “thin” types. That says something to me.
Wishingwellread: Yeah, I guess my point is less that patriarchy is not involved here and more that, like JD, I am frustrated that non-size-zeroes get accused of bodysnarking or whatever when they call society out on its shit. I was women whose bodies fall outside of the paradigm to be able to express their frustration, and I want to quit talking about thin people having hurt feelings when it should be obvious to them that the comment, however thoughtless, was about an atypical body-type trying to build itself up.
PHD, I have a favorite professor who always used to wail about how so much of the exercise and calorie restriction that women do to themselves could be considered self-torture and how people in other countries look at exercise obsessed Americans as total freaks of nature. I always get into shit when I knock exercise online or in public — it’s like the last taboo. I know some people genuinely like working out really hard and to me sports and dance and yoga and biking and walking and stuff that is fun and interactive is understandable, but spending hours doing reps and circuit training in a gym for no reason than to make yourself fit a beauty ideal does strike me as potentially problematic, to be diplomatic. This is why I want Tracy Anderson to drop off the face of the earth NOW.
PSoul, to me it is akin to a black woman making a joke about “the man” or whatever. I am not going to be like “hey, I’m a white person and I’m not that way! I know a lot of nice men who do not discriminate! We should never make statements that in any way recognize someone’s privileged position as a thin person or a male or a straight person or a thin or beautiful person because that person may be good/smart/conscious/wonderful despite their privilege!” It’s just a waste of time and besides the point and you can bet that the joker already knows there are exceptions. I’m going to laugh at that joke (if it is funny), because it’s a joke from an oppressed person expressing a truth about her situation using yes, broad strokes. I don’t need to make it about me and my own insecurities especially when I am the one in the privileged class! Do thin women really experience an epidemic of being considered stupid because of their thinness? Surely not; that is why the joke is funny.
And guess what? If you spend more time working out than reading books you will indeed be stupider than if you had spent that time reading books and not working out. If you read more than you work out maybe you will be fatter but you will be better read. I think Kat’s statement just goes to the point that there is more valuable about a person than being skinny but that when people actually make those value choices — it’s more important for me to enjoy my meals than to be thin, it’s more important for me to work extra hours than be thin, it’s more important for me to love myself as I am than to be thin — they are punished for it, even though there are all kinds of very good reasons to not focus on getting thinner.
JDR: I think it all comes down to “If it’s not about you, it’s not about you.” Which is something we Harpies have been talking about on and off for a while now, trying to formulate a post, because the issue comes up time and again. It should be part of “Derailing for Dummies.”
Kirvin: Also, as a thin ally, you can boycott stores that have taken steps against larger people, like Old Navy, which moved its plus-size selection out of the stores. (If I’m too fat to buy something in the store, I don’t see why I should give you any of my money.)
@Pilgrim Soul: I didn’t realize you could see through the computer screen and determine whether or not I was thin, large, short or otherwise. I have been thin, I have been fat, I’ve been in the middle, and right now, I don’t want to gain or lose weight, because it’s a bitch to buy or alter clothes.
I in no way dispute that women who are perceived as “fat” get the short end of the stick in this culture. That is a no-brainer. But in all cases regardless of which side you fall on it is not alright to paint a group of people in broad strokes. There is a difference between abbreviating “women who are obsessed with working out” with the words “size zero” in a public forum and making that abbreviation amongst your friends who know that you don’t actually think all size zero women are twits. As several posters on this site have said, words matter.
@Kirvin:
The only thing we can do to be allies of oppressed groups to which we do not belong is recognize our privilege and examine what in our actions might exacerbate that oppression. In this case, pay attention to how people speak about food and their bodies, if a larger person is around know that they are probably uncomfortable.
It is very, very important to know that you will probably never understand what it is like to be a member of that group, and people will find it insulting if you say that you do.
Don’t expect fat ladies to be nice to you all the time, even though you are trying. You are still representative of what we are told we should be, and there will be times when we don’t feel like holding your hand. There may be spaces into which you are not invited, shopping trips, etc., this is not an indictment of you.
Finally, it’s important to recognize that no groups is only the victim of oppression, we are privileged as well. As a fat woman, I enjoy the privilege of knowing that people who are in relationships with me aren’t just with me because I’m mad cute. I am able, but not expected, to comply with beauty standards. And when I do, I’m rewarded more highly than thin women, like when people gush because a man cooks dinner. And unlike very conventionally attractive women, I am able to be invisible, I am able to navigate the world without thinking about my appearance, if I choose.
Shannon: Do you get this upset when women talk about men as a privileged class? Or when people of color talk about whites as a privileged class? Or when non-moneyed people talk about the wealthy as a privileged class? I hope not.
I didn’t get into the mix on the last thin privilege post because I didn’t really know what to say, but I did an exercise of my own in the model of the Unpacking the Knapsack essay, and made a list of assumptions a not fat person might be able to make in her or his (but usually her) everyday life that a fat person couldn’t. Many of them were the same. That ought to say something about the similarity of thinness to other forms of privilege.
“Not that anyone really should give a rat’s ass about social theory emerging from the mouths of 22-year-olds anywhere”
Well, don’t expect a free copy of the book of social theory I’m putting out next month, PSoul. Geez.
Shannon, I disagree with your reading of Kat’s interview.
Kat, on Hollywood women.
“People are obsessed. Like, do you have anything better to do than not eat and go to the gym, you freak? I mean, ask any size zero twit if she’s read a book lately.”
It specifically says “Hollywood women” and she specifically states that she is discussing women who are “obsessed” with being skinny to the point of not eating and going to the gym (a real phenomenon esp in Hollywood), and the “size zero” does indeed appear to qualify the term “twit.”
I just don’t think it is really reasonable to read this statement as a broad condemnation of the intelligence of thin women. And the fact that a thin woman (not you here, but perhaps some of the thin commenters at the original post) would read it to be so indicates a level of defensiveness that seems to me out of proportion with the injury she has suffered.
Oh heavens. I just caught up on that Jez thread this morning and it was a total clusterfuck. PS, thank you for being sensible in there.
The thing is, Kat Dennings was very clearly talking about a specific subset of people. And as JD said upthread a bit, if someone DOES spend 20 hours a week in a gym, they probably are less intellectually inclined when compared to someone who spent that time reading. You know what? They’re also probably less inspired than if they spent that time canvassing for an issue they believe in, or less insightful than someone who spent that time in a new workshop learning a new skill. I don’t get how that’s a mean/insulting/bad thing to say. I really don’t. (No one cares about my gym or eating habits so I’m not going to espouse them here, but suffice it to say, when I’m alone in a gym running by myself on a treadmill, I’m pissed off that I’m doing that rather than reading, or writing, or talking to my mom, or what have you, because the mind will ALWAYS be more important than the body.)
I just think it’s completely disingenuous for people – of any size – to start ranting against Kat Dennings for what she said as though she was calling skinny people stupid. Get a little nuance, get over your privilege, and realize that there were definitely gems of truth in her statement.
PilgrimSoul: Virtually everyone who has agreed with me is herself not a size-zero, and those who have not agreed are uniformly self-identifying as “thin” types. That says something to me.
It could be that there are, indeed, thin people who are self-aware enough not to shriek “I’m a size zero” at every possible opportunity on the internet because it is usually inappropriate, off-topic, and rude, the same way a self-aware moneyed person would never say “But I inherited loads of money and I’m really smart and hard-working!” in response to a complaint about the privilege money bestows on people. It could also be that omitting that information is a way of dealing with how uncomfortable privilege feels.
(Kithkin, I agree.)