A Quick Link That’s Worth Your Time

29 Responses to “A Quick Link That’s Worth Your Time”

1. BeckySharper says:

   May 6, 2009 at 4:07 pm

   I saw Kathryn Joyce speak recently about this and it definitely left my jaw hanging a bit.

   As for Quiverfull adherents making enough white Christian progeny to outpace the non-white, non-Christian population, well, good luck with that, folks. I can tell you right now it’ll be an EPIC FAIL.
2. sarah.of.a.lesser.god says:

   May 6, 2009 at 4:25 pm

   @Becky: Yeah, one of the great ironies is that fundamental Protestantism has a very antagonistic view of Catholicism, and many countries in Latin America and Africa that have very high birthrates also have very high rates of Catholicism. It’s like the religious wars are reborn through women’s uteri. Fun times.
3. Alyssa says:

   May 6, 2009 at 4:37 pm

   @Becky Please don’t go with the Quiverfull adherants will fail at overpopulating the non-white populations because those darn brown folks multiply like bunnies. It’s an insulting argument.
   Rather we need to be asking why do groups of people feel the need to out populate other in the first place?
4. AuntieEm says:

   May 6, 2009 at 4:41 pm

   Alyssa – I don’t think she meant it like that
5. PhDork says:

   May 6, 2009 at 4:43 pm

   Alyssa, I don’t think Becky was implying that “brown folks multiply like bunnies,” rather that breeding White-Fundies-4-Jeezus isn’t exactly a winning game on its own terms. The world is changing, getting smaller, people are seeing alternate ways of living, and you can’t keep ‘em down on the farm, etc. (not to imply that Quiverfulls are all bumpkins). Raising kids w/ X belief is no guarantee that they’ll embrace it.
6. Alyssa says:

   May 6, 2009 at 4:54 pm

   @ Auntie Em: I realize she didn’t intend it to be insulting. But look at the argument:
   It will be an epic fail for a group of people who expect their members to have several children (resulting in exponential growth if successful) to out populate non-white populations (who btw are globally having smaller and smaller families). How can you tell us right now that this is going to be an epic fail? Because brown people are a large enough group and have big enough families that no one can over populate them? What is the other reason this is an epic fail?
   I’m honestly not trying to start something, but the brown people have a lot of kids stereotype stands out when random people tell you things like, “Wow you are so young to have a baby [I'm 29]. I’ve noticed that a lot of latin@s [I'm not latin@, but that's besides the point] start young and have large families. It must be something about the equator.”
   So I’m sorry if I’m a little sensitive about this stereotype, but can we please be more careful with it?
   Thanks.
7. Tersa says:

   May 6, 2009 at 4:55 pm

   I’m not worried about the quiverfull adherents outpopulating everyone else but I do worry about the ideas spreading. Like this part of the interview:

   “There is a trickle-down effect of these ideas. Women in general won’t start having 18 children, but when the World Congress of Families goes to Europe they’re not asking them to have 18 children, they’re telling them that every woman in the country should have 3 or 4, which seems like a lot more reasonable number. They’re also promoting efforts that institute the ideas of the patriarchy movement legally, such as a family wage law, which would re-legalize pay discrimination between women and men on the grounds that men should be supporting their families and women are just working for extra. These are things that don’t have huge chances of [becoming law] any time soon. But also these ideas are being picked up by more mainstream denominations, like the Southern Baptist Convention, which is huge, 16 million members, and in recent years they’ve started saying things like deliberate childlessness among Christian couples is not an option, it’s more a rebellion against God. And they’ve certainly been at the forefront of promoting the complementarian idea of wifely submission to male headship.”
8. BeckySharper says:

   May 6, 2009 at 4:57 pm

   @Alyssa: I absolutely meant nothing of the sort. You’re reading racism into that?

   The world census estimates don’t lie. The fastest growing populations in the world are in SE Asia and India–which now have over 1/3 of the world’s population. They are not white. They are not (for the most part) Christian. Islam is the fastest growing religion in terms of proselytization, especially in Africa. Population decrease is dramatic in white, Christian-dominated countries, especially in Western Europe. The facts speak for themselves.

   It’s a simple question of demographics. Sheesh.
9. Alyssa says:

   May 6, 2009 at 4:57 pm

   @PhDork: Okay I’ll buy it’s not the brown people have large families argument, and rather the raising kids with X belief is no guarantee that they will embrace it. But I still think that needs to be explicitly stated. As I said before, it’s a STRONG stereotype out there, and we need to be careful to avoid it.
   Thanks.
10. Alyssa says:

    May 6, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    @Becky It is also a fact that Asia and India’s growth rate is slowing (along with all other nations). Are you honestly telling me that if one group purposly starts growing their population at an exponential rate, that they will NEVER catch up? Even after knowing that the growth rate of most nations(while still large) is slowing?
11. Tersa says:

    May 6, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    Did anyone else read the comments on that article and cringe? For a second i thought i was reading Broadsheet.
12. sarah.of.a.lesser.god says:

    May 6, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    @Alyssa: The Quiverfull movement is not a huge demographic force in the U.S., let alone in other countries. This is not to say it doesn’t count, but birth rates for the entire U.S. are not outpacing those in many other countries. The Quiverfull movement would have to absolutely explode and stay a powerful force over several generations. The “brown folks multiply like bunnies” is the reasoning behind Quiverfull, not behind Becky’s comment.
13. BeckySharper says:

    May 6, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    @Alyssa: Nah. They won’t. It’s simply not possible.

    The Quiverfull movement is a tiny fringe sect. They can have 20 children per family and they wouldn’t even make up for the population loss among whites in the US and Western Europe as the post-baby boom generation starts dying off. And regardless, when it comes to the global population, they’re less than a drop in the bucket. It’s also worth remembering that to Quiverfull adherents, Latinos and Roman Catholics are not considered “white” or “Christian.” So that rules out S. America and a large swath of the US population.

    Their notion that they’re somehow going to repopulate the world is both ridiculous and futile. To say nothing of offensive. (BTW, they would not consider me white or Christian either).
14. Alyssa says:

    May 6, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    @Tersa: Yes. I only got through a few before I had to stop reading. And I, like you, am not worried about them overpopulating and overtaking everyone else, but I’m more worried about their ideas spreading (for the very same quote you mentioned ealier). And for god’s sake, I feel really bad for the children that they are indoctrinating. They certianly don’t seem very accepting of other views. God forbid their daughters want to lead a life of their own…
15. sarah.of.a.lesser.god says:

    May 6, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    @Tersa: Yeah, deeply disappointing comments.
16. PhDork says:

    May 6, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    I read the comments, too. Mistake (except for Amanda Marcotte’s, of course).

    I’m far more worried about the SBC folks, with their relentless retrograde creep that is swathed in enough charismatic hand-waving that believers might not see it for what it is. I have a lot of Baptist family, and if they start embracing what Johnny Hunt and his minions are preaching…well, I’ll miss them.
17. X. Trapnel says:

    May 6, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    @Becky- 20 children per couple implies that 1000 quiverfuls become 1 billion in 5 generations, 10b in 6. The QFs math is fine in the abstract. The -reason- it looks impossible is because it’s a *ridiculous burden* to place on the women, and the men for that matter, so we’d expect, hope for, a lot of apostacy. So I agree with Alyssa that it makes more sense to avoid saying “they can’t do it,” and talk instead how sick it is to think having the right number of white folks is a goal that jusifies turning half the population into brood mares.
18. Tersa says:

    May 6, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    @phDork some of my fiance’s family is really in that inbetween area of the quiverfull/patriarchy movement and I used to work for a Christian Publishing company that specialized in home schooling material. It’s really easy to want to write quiverfull off as a bunch of extremeist in a black and white sort of way but there are just sooo many shades of gray between an extremist and a normal evangical family.
19. BeckySharper says:

    May 6, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    @X.Trapnel: If you read my comments, I referred to the movement as ridiculous, futile and offensive. So don’t tell me that I’m not talking about how sick it is.

    Their flawed logic assumes that every Quiverfull child will grow up to have the maximum number of children, and no one will ever break out of the movement. Which, as you say, is very unlikely because it imposes such a burden on women and my guess is that a LOT of those Quiverfull daughters are going to say “fuck this noise” and leave, and a lot of those Quiverfull men are going to have a hard time recruiting wives who want to have babies every year of their lives until menopause.

    I’m saying “they can’t do it” because they can’t. It won’t happen. It’s yet another religious fundamentalist movement that’s based on fucked-up ideology and not reality. They come and go frequently in American culture, particularly in radical Protestant sects/denominations.
20. bluebears says:

    May 6, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    This is why I have nothing but disgust for media outlets that promote the Duggar family. The family is not cute and innocent its represents a vile philosophy that happily subjugates women.
21. rodriguez says:

    May 6, 2009 at 7:28 pm

    This Quiverfull argument shares some points with the theologian Meic Pearse, who seems to sell his books mainly through Christian bookstores. He devotes many words to the falling birth rates of Europe.

    I just read two of his works, Why the Rest Hates the West, and The Gods of War. I was hoping for some insight, but instead I got a face full of patriarchy.
22. rodriguez says:

    May 6, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    so I mention this only to ask, any harpies read these?

    Sometimes I like to read what the other side is saying but it’s really really hard. I feel like I am dragging my eyes across the page.
23. BeckySharper says:

    May 6, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    @rodriguez: My feeling on books like that is I can read the jacket copy and a bit of the book so that I’m informed about the general ideas. But I agree, the faceful of patriarchy is hard to handle and total immersion is painful, particularly when it is essentially hate speech for page after page.

    To use a metaphor: I don’t have to put my whole body into a pot of boiling water to know it’s a bad idea. A burnt fingertip tells me all I need to know.
24. sarah.of.a.lesser.god says:

    May 6, 2009 at 7:41 pm

    @rodriguez: I have not heard of him. But I am very impressed that you read not one but two of this guy’s books.
25. Blondegrlz says:

    May 6, 2009 at 7:45 pm

    Suddenly the Duggar’s cute “oh-look-at-Jesus-riding-the-dinosaur” antics don’t seem so amusing.

    But I’m with the Harpies above who say there’s no way the Quiverfull movement could ever accomplish their mission. My husband’s family attended a church that was strongly patriarchal and his parents lived by the rule that women must submit to their husbands. Zero of their four kids have followed that example.

    Also, if these Quiverfull families marry their kids off to each other they’re going to end up limiting their growth in just a generation or two. Well, that or get dangerously close to incest.
26. rodriguez says:

    May 6, 2009 at 8:46 pm

    @sarah, becky
    I read the war one, and he had some useful insights there, but a really strong undercurrent of anti-woman thinking.

    So I picked up the other one. It’s vile. His thesis is that the rest hates the west because we have abandoned patriarchy. I think he may be influencing the Catholic branch of this Quiverfull stuff, and maybe others.

    …

    I’d rather it not said about me, as I say about this type of folks: they never think about the other side’s arguments.

    Sometimes it’s cheery, when I see someone making full-on bullshit arguments in support of the other side, as Pearse does.
27. J.D.Regent says:

    May 6, 2009 at 9:58 pm

    PhD I agree it is just another cult. A lot of them have had insane fertility fetishes, even left wing religious movements like the Children of God and the People’s Temple were really into baby making, and they were anti patriarchal in other ways or at least in theory. But I guess at bottom every religion is a fertility cult. Except maybe Buddhism I guess.
28. PhDork says:

    May 7, 2009 at 12:28 am

    JD, I truly believe that deep down, all fundies(which is not to say all evangelicals), right or left,are power-hungry woman-haters. Even some Buddhist sects are pretty narsty, believe it or not.
29. Renee says:

    May 7, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    @bluebears I could not agree with your more on the Duggar family. I am particularly concerned for the daughters growing in that home. In the recent wedding of the oldest son, Michelle was really concerned that he knew daughter in law knew that she should subvert her will to her husbands. Clearly she is not teaching her daughters the value of female agency and autonomy.