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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Radfem Hall Monitor&#8221;ism and Generosity as a Feminist Value</title>
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	<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/</link>
	<description>As narrated by the most charming and vicious women on the internet</description>
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		<title>By: On My Quasi-Disinterest in Tina Fey Forelash/Backlash - The Pursuit of Harpyness</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/comment-page-1/#comment-25628</link>
		<dc:creator>On My Quasi-Disinterest in Tina Fey Forelash/Backlash - The Pursuit of Harpyness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7330#comment-25628</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] time ago in this space about my then-nascent belief that maybe, just maybe, there was a place for a certain degree of generosity in feminist discussions.  Since I wrote that post &#8211; almost a year ago now, God &#8211; I [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] time ago in this space about my then-nascent belief that maybe, just maybe, there was a place for a certain degree of generosity in feminist discussions.  Since I wrote that post &#8211; almost a year ago now, God &#8211; I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: PhDork</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/comment-page-1/#comment-10131</link>
		<dc:creator>PhDork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7330#comment-10131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good gawd, oldfeminist, you act like what I said was All About Twisty.  It wasn&#039;t.  And even if it were, I stand by my statement, and you&#039;re reading all kinds of drama into it that simply isn&#039;t there. (Also, way to omit my last sentence and make it look like I&#039;ve put out a fatwa on her.) My point: what one says matters, and if one says something sloppy or mean that contradicts one&#039;s own values, one should cop to it.  End of fucking story.  Twisty doesn&#039;t owe me anything.  I was/am not personally offended and don&#039;t need to be &quot;appeased.&quot; Please review my response to the intial shit-stirring post:  &lt;em&gt;wtf.  why would you say that?  you know better.&lt;/em&gt;  I don&#039;t think that is a disproportionate reaction.  I think she&#039;s smart and funny and human and on this occasion wrote something stupid, and for her, wildly sub-par.  Jeezus fucking Kee-ryst.  Banished?  Am I Goddess of Feminism now, and get to pluck offenders off Planet Woman?  Does your comment  qualify under your idea of &quot;generosity,&quot; BTW?  If so, it&#039;s further proof that it isn&#039;t a value of mine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good gawd, oldfeminist, you act like what I said was All About Twisty.  It wasn&#8217;t.  And even if it were, I stand by my statement, and you&#8217;re reading all kinds of drama into it that simply isn&#8217;t there. (Also, way to omit my last sentence and make it look like I&#8217;ve put out a fatwa on her.) My point: what one says matters, and if one says something sloppy or mean that contradicts one&#8217;s own values, one should cop to it.  End of fucking story.  Twisty doesn&#8217;t owe me anything.  I was/am not personally offended and don&#8217;t need to be &#8220;appeased.&#8221; Please review my response to the intial shit-stirring post:  <em>wtf.  why would you say that?  you know better.</em>  I don&#8217;t think that is a disproportionate reaction.  I think she&#8217;s smart and funny and human and on this occasion wrote something stupid, and for her, wildly sub-par.  Jeezus fucking Kee-ryst.  Banished?  Am I Goddess of Feminism now, and get to pluck offenders off Planet Woman?  Does your comment  qualify under your idea of &#8220;generosity,&#8221; BTW?  If so, it&#8217;s further proof that it isn&#8217;t a value of mine.</p>
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		<title>By: oldfeminist</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/comment-page-1/#comment-10128</link>
		<dc:creator>oldfeminist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7330#comment-10128</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PhDork says:  &quot;Hill Rat, I disagree. (You’re shocked, I know.) It’s not about “arguing who’s more hardcore” or cracking the whip on each other, it’s about living up to your own goddamn ideals. Yes, we’re all going to fall short at times. Them’s the breaks. But when you fail, it’s not okay to excuse yourself out of it as if it didn’t matter. It does matter: that’s why it’s your goddamn ideal. The point is not to beat yourself–or anyone else–up about it, but to admit your mistake and apologize, without an ornate string of weaselly extenuating circumstances, or biting back at people who caught you with your hand in the patriarchy jar.&quot;

And what hapens if she doesn&#039;t apologize?  She said she wasn&#039;t going to because she wasn&#039;t sorry she used the word.

She said it.  She stands by it.  She didn&#039;t try to explain it away, either.

So is she now anathema?  Not a feminist?  Not allowed to judge anyone anywhere for anything because she refuses to accept your judgment of her actions?

She honestly does not believe she needs to apologize.  Should she do so anyway, to appease you?  

Is she different in some measurable way from the Twisty/Jill of before, aside from that word and your disappointment in how she responded to criticism of it?

This would be a small world for me indeed if doing the wrong thing by my lights banished someone from it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PhDork says:  &#8220;Hill Rat, I disagree. (You’re shocked, I know.) It’s not about “arguing who’s more hardcore” or cracking the whip on each other, it’s about living up to your own goddamn ideals. Yes, we’re all going to fall short at times. Them’s the breaks. But when you fail, it’s not okay to excuse yourself out of it as if it didn’t matter. It does matter: that’s why it’s your goddamn ideal. The point is not to beat yourself–or anyone else–up about it, but to admit your mistake and apologize, without an ornate string of weaselly extenuating circumstances, or biting back at people who caught you with your hand in the patriarchy jar.&#8221;</p>
<p>And what hapens if she doesn&#8217;t apologize?  She said she wasn&#8217;t going to because she wasn&#8217;t sorry she used the word.</p>
<p>She said it.  She stands by it.  She didn&#8217;t try to explain it away, either.</p>
<p>So is she now anathema?  Not a feminist?  Not allowed to judge anyone anywhere for anything because she refuses to accept your judgment of her actions?</p>
<p>She honestly does not believe she needs to apologize.  Should she do so anyway, to appease you?  </p>
<p>Is she different in some measurable way from the Twisty/Jill of before, aside from that word and your disappointment in how she responded to criticism of it?</p>
<p>This would be a small world for me indeed if doing the wrong thing by my lights banished someone from it.</p>
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		<title>By: PhDork</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/comment-page-1/#comment-9729</link>
		<dc:creator>PhDork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7330#comment-9729</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your piece, PS, wasn&#039;t about living (or not) up to ideals.  I&#039;m simply stating where I&#039;m coming at this from, and why I&#039;m okay with anger.

Not all anger is the same, and to label it &quot;hypervigilance&quot; skirts a bit too close to the mountains-out-of-molehills anti-feminist critique.

There were some comments at Twisty&#039;s that were harsher than others.  Okay. Maybe that does have a downside, like, you know, everything else, but people respond differently.  My response (I didn&#039;t comment) was:  &quot;wtf.  Why would you say that?  You know better.&quot;  It was her shamey &quot;chill the fuck out!&quot; comments that made me angry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your piece, PS, wasn&#8217;t about living (or not) up to ideals.  I&#8217;m simply stating where I&#8217;m coming at this from, and why I&#8217;m okay with anger.</p>
<p>Not all anger is the same, and to label it &#8220;hypervigilance&#8221; skirts a bit too close to the mountains-out-of-molehills anti-feminist critique.</p>
<p>There were some comments at Twisty&#8217;s that were harsher than others.  Okay. Maybe that does have a downside, like, you know, everything else, but people respond differently.  My response (I didn&#8217;t comment) was:  &#8220;wtf.  Why would you say that?  You know better.&#8221;  It was her shamey &#8220;chill the fuck out!&#8221; comments that made me angry.</p>
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		<title>By: Pilgrim Soul</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/comment-page-1/#comment-9715</link>
		<dc:creator>Pilgrim Soul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7330#comment-9715</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PhDork, I&#039;m not sure about what Hill Rat said, but I take some exception to the idea that this is about living up to your ideals or not living up to your ideals.  I am saying that hypervigilance has its downside.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PhDork, I&#8217;m not sure about what Hill Rat said, but I take some exception to the idea that this is about living up to your ideals or not living up to your ideals.  I am saying that hypervigilance has its downside.</p>
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		<title>By: PhDork</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/comment-page-1/#comment-9714</link>
		<dc:creator>PhDork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7330#comment-9714</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hill Rat, I disagree.  (You&#039;re shocked, I know.)  It&#039;s not about &quot;arguing who&#039;s more hardcore&quot; or cracking the whip on each other, it&#039;s about living up to your own goddamn ideals.  Yes, we&#039;re all going to fall short at times.  Them&#039;s the breaks.  But when you fail, it&#039;s not okay to excuse yourself out of it as if it didn&#039;t matter.  It does matter:  &lt;em&gt;that&#039;s why it&#039;s your goddamn ideal&lt;/em&gt;.  The point is not to beat yourself--or anyone else--up about it, but to admit your mistake and apologize, without an ornate string of weaselly extenuating circumstances, or biting back at people who caught you with your hand in the patriarchy jar.

I am totally on Team Twisty, but that doesn&#039;t mean that she doesn&#039;t have feet of clay.  Just like me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hill Rat, I disagree.  (You&#8217;re shocked, I know.)  It&#8217;s not about &#8220;arguing who&#8217;s more hardcore&#8221; or cracking the whip on each other, it&#8217;s about living up to your own goddamn ideals.  Yes, we&#8217;re all going to fall short at times.  Them&#8217;s the breaks.  But when you fail, it&#8217;s not okay to excuse yourself out of it as if it didn&#8217;t matter.  It does matter:  <em>that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s your goddamn ideal</em>.  The point is not to beat yourself&#8211;or anyone else&#8211;up about it, but to admit your mistake and apologize, without an ornate string of weaselly extenuating circumstances, or biting back at people who caught you with your hand in the patriarchy jar.</p>
<p>I am totally on Team Twisty, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that she doesn&#8217;t have feet of clay.  Just like me.</p>
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		<title>By: Zenobia</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/comment-page-1/#comment-9712</link>
		<dc:creator>Zenobia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7330#comment-9712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is &quot;cuntalina&quot; a common derivative of &quot;cunt&quot;?  If it is I can see how this is questionable; but if it isn&#039;t, it seems more that Twisty was being deliberately ironic, which would make this (in my opinion) a fairly different situation. I&#039;m not necessarily Team-Twisty, but she pretty much chooses her words well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is &#8220;cuntalina&#8221; a common derivative of &#8220;cunt&#8221;?  If it is I can see how this is questionable; but if it isn&#8217;t, it seems more that Twisty was being deliberately ironic, which would make this (in my opinion) a fairly different situation. I&#8217;m not necessarily Team-Twisty, but she pretty much chooses her words well.</p>
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		<title>By: Hill Rat</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/comment-page-1/#comment-9710</link>
		<dc:creator>Hill Rat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 05:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7330#comment-9710</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;. . . most people only value generosity when applied to themselves&lt;/i&gt;

This is the heart of the matter.  

Everyone thinks *they* should be getting a pass.  Y&#039;all think the distinctly white-bread flavor of this blog should be excused, I think I should get a gold star for being a man who dares to comment here, and Jill/Twisty thinks her linguistic transgressions ought to be excused.  You know what?  We&#039;re all right.  Coming to a forum like this and arguing over who&#039;s more hardcore or sending an electronic raiding party to another blog to make sure they toe some mythical ideological line makes about as much sense as a circular firing squad.

Snaps to PS for having the gonads to put herself out here like this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>. . . most people only value generosity when applied to themselves</i></p>
<p>This is the heart of the matter.  </p>
<p>Everyone thinks *they* should be getting a pass.  Y&#8217;all think the distinctly white-bread flavor of this blog should be excused, I think I should get a gold star for being a man who dares to comment here, and Jill/Twisty thinks her linguistic transgressions ought to be excused.  You know what?  We&#8217;re all right.  Coming to a forum like this and arguing over who&#8217;s more hardcore or sending an electronic raiding party to another blog to make sure they toe some mythical ideological line makes about as much sense as a circular firing squad.</p>
<p>Snaps to PS for having the gonads to put herself out here like this.</p>
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		<title>By: bluebears</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/comment-page-1/#comment-9704</link>
		<dc:creator>bluebears</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 00:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7330#comment-9704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with SarahMC,  Twisty/Jill would be the first person to call out a woman for using an offensive word to describe another woman. I like her writing too but its a little rich that all of a sudden language isn&#039;t important to her and its just a joke and everyone should relax. 

However I also take your larger point PS, and I agree that sometimes we need to keep the larger picture in mind and stop infighting to death.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with SarahMC,  Twisty/Jill would be the first person to call out a woman for using an offensive word to describe another woman. I like her writing too but its a little rich that all of a sudden language isn&#8217;t important to her and its just a joke and everyone should relax. </p>
<p>However I also take your larger point PS, and I agree that sometimes we need to keep the larger picture in mind and stop infighting to death.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Trooskin-Zoller</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/08/radfem-hall-monitorism-and-generosity-as-a-feminist-value/comment-page-1/#comment-9700</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Trooskin-Zoller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7330#comment-9700</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Periodically, my friends talk about whether they&#039;re optimists or pessimists.  Oftentimes, this discussion starts when people need to remark upon the astonishingly firm optimism of my primary partner, for whom the glass is seven-eights of the way full, no matter the circumstances.  

Once upon a time, I used to consider myself my partner&#039;s foil, a firm pessimist.  After quitting my miserable job and then getting myself quite a bit of really good therapy, I&#039;ve discovered I am not, as I&#039;d previously thought, fundamentally pessimistic.

I&#039;m fundamentally outraged.  In the same way an optimist sees a glass as half-full, and a pessimist sees a glass as half-empty, my first reaction is outrage that the glass isn&#039;t full.  I have a lot of outrage in me; an endless supply, it seems.

In an attempt to channel this energy for good, or at least for lower blood-pressure, I have been attempting, over the past few years, to stop judging women.  I started this project several years ago when it seemed like every feminist blog I was reading was having judge-fests about blow jobs and high heels.  And I realized, after reading quite a bit of women calling other women unfeminist, that I wanted to Not Participate In That Discussion in some way other than simply keeping my opinion to myself. 

I have made a pact with myself, to try to stop judging women for the choices we make.  We live in an awful world, sometimes.  The patriarchy is an environment in which we&#039;re faced, over and over again, with no-win situations. I make hundreds of decisions each week where I find myself having to weigh the social consequences of my actions against how much energy I have left to struggle.  So I have to forgive myself, on a regular basis, for sometimes having to just live in the world, instead of constantly struggling to change it.  And that&#039;s also taught me how to forgive other people for the same thing.

And from that perspective, when I first read Twisty&#039;s/Jill&#039;s not-an-apoloogy, I wasn&#039;t really outraged at all.  I&#039;d wrinkled my nose a little when I saw her first post, as I don&#039;t like it when people use women-associated-words as insults in general (I have a similar response to the use of &quot;douchebag&quot; over at Bitch Ph.D, despite a thoughtful deconstruction of the term-as-insult) and shrugged at the tone of her follow-up post.  Of course she was defensive; she&#039;d just got jumped-on by her allies.  In that context, I think she gracefully acknowledged that she&#039;s human, and she loses her temper, just like the rest of us do. And I&#039;d rather see people do what she did -- acknowledge that the word is, in fact, an anti-woman slur, and move on -- than what I usually see people do, which is to cobble together a half-assed justification for why they weren&#039;t actually guilty of speaking misogyny and then tacking on a &quot;but I&#039;m sorry if you&#039;re offended&quot; non-apology at the end.

And so, yes, I agree.  We all need to cut each other a whole lot of slack, because we&#039;re doing the best we can in an impossible world.  And I think Twisty&#039;s all the more the superhero for losing her temper &amp; admitting it (even if she left the admission to herself-by-another-name).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Periodically, my friends talk about whether they&#8217;re optimists or pessimists.  Oftentimes, this discussion starts when people need to remark upon the astonishingly firm optimism of my primary partner, for whom the glass is seven-eights of the way full, no matter the circumstances.  </p>
<p>Once upon a time, I used to consider myself my partner&#8217;s foil, a firm pessimist.  After quitting my miserable job and then getting myself quite a bit of really good therapy, I&#8217;ve discovered I am not, as I&#8217;d previously thought, fundamentally pessimistic.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m fundamentally outraged.  In the same way an optimist sees a glass as half-full, and a pessimist sees a glass as half-empty, my first reaction is outrage that the glass isn&#8217;t full.  I have a lot of outrage in me; an endless supply, it seems.</p>
<p>In an attempt to channel this energy for good, or at least for lower blood-pressure, I have been attempting, over the past few years, to stop judging women.  I started this project several years ago when it seemed like every feminist blog I was reading was having judge-fests about blow jobs and high heels.  And I realized, after reading quite a bit of women calling other women unfeminist, that I wanted to Not Participate In That Discussion in some way other than simply keeping my opinion to myself. </p>
<p>I have made a pact with myself, to try to stop judging women for the choices we make.  We live in an awful world, sometimes.  The patriarchy is an environment in which we&#8217;re faced, over and over again, with no-win situations. I make hundreds of decisions each week where I find myself having to weigh the social consequences of my actions against how much energy I have left to struggle.  So I have to forgive myself, on a regular basis, for sometimes having to just live in the world, instead of constantly struggling to change it.  And that&#8217;s also taught me how to forgive other people for the same thing.</p>
<p>And from that perspective, when I first read Twisty&#8217;s/Jill&#8217;s not-an-apoloogy, I wasn&#8217;t really outraged at all.  I&#8217;d wrinkled my nose a little when I saw her first post, as I don&#8217;t like it when people use women-associated-words as insults in general (I have a similar response to the use of &#8220;douchebag&#8221; over at Bitch Ph.D, despite a thoughtful deconstruction of the term-as-insult) and shrugged at the tone of her follow-up post.  Of course she was defensive; she&#8217;d just got jumped-on by her allies.  In that context, I think she gracefully acknowledged that she&#8217;s human, and she loses her temper, just like the rest of us do. And I&#8217;d rather see people do what she did &#8212; acknowledge that the word is, in fact, an anti-woman slur, and move on &#8212; than what I usually see people do, which is to cobble together a half-assed justification for why they weren&#8217;t actually guilty of speaking misogyny and then tacking on a &#8220;but I&#8217;m sorry if you&#8217;re offended&#8221; non-apology at the end.</p>
<p>And so, yes, I agree.  We all need to cut each other a whole lot of slack, because we&#8217;re doing the best we can in an impossible world.  And I think Twisty&#8217;s all the more the superhero for losing her temper &amp; admitting it (even if she left the admission to herself-by-another-name).</p>
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