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	<title>Comments on: When is it &#8220;Terrorism?&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/</link>
	<description>As narrated by the most charming and vicious women on the internet</description>
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		<title>By: TinRoof</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-9961</link>
		<dc:creator>TinRoof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7506#comment-9961</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think I can simplify this. 

Political action becomes terrorism when it uses intimidation and fear rather than persuasion to achieve its ends.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I can simplify this. </p>
<p>Political action becomes terrorism when it uses intimidation and fear rather than persuasion to achieve its ends.</p>
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		<title>By: BearDownCBears</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-9957</link>
		<dc:creator>BearDownCBears</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Right, but terrorism as I recognize it happens because the perpetrators have no state recourse for their actions.  Even &quot;state-sponsored terrorism&quot;, which might highlight our disconnect, is labeled as such because the state ponsor must use a contracted agent to employ violence on its behalf, because it is politically infeasible to do it with soldiers.  I&#039;m thinking Sudan and the janjaweed.

I&#039;m not refusing to call a spade a spade, I&#039;m calling one a trowel and one a post-hole digger.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, but terrorism as I recognize it happens because the perpetrators have no state recourse for their actions.  Even &#8220;state-sponsored terrorism&#8221;, which might highlight our disconnect, is labeled as such because the state ponsor must use a contracted agent to employ violence on its behalf, because it is politically infeasible to do it with soldiers.  I&#8217;m thinking Sudan and the janjaweed.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not refusing to call a spade a spade, I&#8217;m calling one a trowel and one a post-hole digger.</p>
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		<title>By: anna</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-9953</link>
		<dc:creator>anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7506#comment-9953</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@beardown
I don&#039;t think I agree with your first paragraph, but only because I don&#039;t see the distinction here. However, our definitions differ slightly on this point and that&#039;s an acceptable situation for me. I concede to diplomatic courtesy in the conversation.

With regards to your second paragraph, I think a lot of serious crimes get pushed to the back burners and don&#039;t get the justice the deserve because they are difficult to prosecute in the international--and even national--community. Rape, for example, is often ignored and statistically underreported because it can be so difficult to successfully prosecute. That doesn&#039;t mean we shouldn&#039;t call a spade a spade in either case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@beardown<br />
I don&#8217;t think I agree with your first paragraph, but only because I don&#8217;t see the distinction here. However, our definitions differ slightly on this point and that&#8217;s an acceptable situation for me. I concede to diplomatic courtesy in the conversation.</p>
<p>With regards to your second paragraph, I think a lot of serious crimes get pushed to the back burners and don&#8217;t get the justice the deserve because they are difficult to prosecute in the international&#8211;and even national&#8211;community. Rape, for example, is often ignored and statistically underreported because it can be so difficult to successfully prosecute. That doesn&#8217;t mean we shouldn&#8217;t call a spade a spade in either case.</p>
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		<title>By: BearDownCBears</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-9952</link>
		<dc:creator>BearDownCBears</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:10:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7506#comment-9952</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@anna: You can of course be small acts of terrorism.  They happened during the Troubles all the time.  I&#039;ll even agree with you on gang violence when it comes to the Stop Snitching campaign, because that deters civilians from employing a state institution (the cops).  But there&#039;s a difference, however small you might think it is, between burning down black churches to keep parishoners from participating in civil rights activity and acts committed simply to freak a particular population out.  And I&#039;m not trying to belittle any type of violence here, if that&#039;s what you were implying by your second paragraph.


I get your frustration with not calling state acts of terror &quot;terrorism&quot; because I understand how that might seem like giving state-sponsored violence a pass.  But unfortunately, you have to deal with state violence in the international community, which, as we all know, is fickle.  I think a danger lies in labeling such acts as &quot;terrorism&quot; and then not punishing it due to politics/logistics, thereby seeming to excuse terrorism in the abstract.  I also think it de-emphasizes that non-state actors, for the most part, commit terrorism because they cannot commit violence overtly through a state institution.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@anna: You can of course be small acts of terrorism.  They happened during the Troubles all the time.  I&#8217;ll even agree with you on gang violence when it comes to the Stop Snitching campaign, because that deters civilians from employing a state institution (the cops).  But there&#8217;s a difference, however small you might think it is, between burning down black churches to keep parishoners from participating in civil rights activity and acts committed simply to freak a particular population out.  And I&#8217;m not trying to belittle any type of violence here, if that&#8217;s what you were implying by your second paragraph.</p>
<p>I get your frustration with not calling state acts of terror &#8220;terrorism&#8221; because I understand how that might seem like giving state-sponsored violence a pass.  But unfortunately, you have to deal with state violence in the international community, which, as we all know, is fickle.  I think a danger lies in labeling such acts as &#8220;terrorism&#8221; and then not punishing it due to politics/logistics, thereby seeming to excuse terrorism in the abstract.  I also think it de-emphasizes that non-state actors, for the most part, commit terrorism because they cannot commit violence overtly through a state institution.</p>
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		<title>By: anna</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-9950</link>
		<dc:creator>anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7506#comment-9950</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Spark, I honestly don&#039;t know enough about the story to know whether or not you&#039;re right, and what I&#039;m reading now isn&#039;t giving me a clear distinction on intent at all, which is why I formulated the &quot;if-then&quot; scenarios in my earlier response. It is an interesting question, because when the victim is an individual and the act was committed by people who are not outspoken in their hatred of a group, it becomes difficult to classify. 

The sheer number of terrorism definitions indicates that these kinds of difficult scenarios are everywhere. It&#039;s hard to make these things &quot;always,&quot; because when intent is involved it becomes much grayer. In many cases, the distinction is definitely a circumstantial one.

I may have exhausted my coherent thoughts on the matter at this point, but we&#039;ll see what comes up. 

I appreciate the thoughtful conversation with all of you on what tends to be a very difficult topic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spark, I honestly don&#8217;t know enough about the story to know whether or not you&#8217;re right, and what I&#8217;m reading now isn&#8217;t giving me a clear distinction on intent at all, which is why I formulated the &#8220;if-then&#8221; scenarios in my earlier response. It is an interesting question, because when the victim is an individual and the act was committed by people who are not outspoken in their hatred of a group, it becomes difficult to classify. </p>
<p>The sheer number of terrorism definitions indicates that these kinds of difficult scenarios are everywhere. It&#8217;s hard to make these things &#8220;always,&#8221; because when intent is involved it becomes much grayer. In many cases, the distinction is definitely a circumstantial one.</p>
<p>I may have exhausted my coherent thoughts on the matter at this point, but we&#8217;ll see what comes up. </p>
<p>I appreciate the thoughtful conversation with all of you on what tends to be a very difficult topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Spark</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-9948</link>
		<dc:creator>Spark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7506#comment-9948</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[anna, I agree Matthew Shepherd was definitely targeted for being gay, but I don&#039;t know if his killers intended to achieve any purpose other than killing him. I see a distinction there, even though the effect of their actions was spreading fear.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anna, I agree Matthew Shepherd was definitely targeted for being gay, but I don&#8217;t know if his killers intended to achieve any purpose other than killing him. I see a distinction there, even though the effect of their actions was spreading fear.</p>
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		<title>By: anna</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-9941</link>
		<dc:creator>anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7506#comment-9941</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@spark: I did mention before, in reference to school shootings, that intent does influence the classification.

I think the question in regards to Matthew Shepard is whether or not fear was the intent or the consequence. If the attack was because of his sexuality, as originally reported and backed up by some parts of testimony, then I would probably classify it as a hate crime directed at homosexuals as a group with this individual being the target, thus fitting my own definition of terrorism.

On the other hand, if it was just a violent attack on an individual, then the fear was a secondary consequence and not the purpose. 

I&#039;m inclined to go with the former, just because Shepard seems to have been targeted because of his sexuality even though the perpetrators tried to shy around that to keep from being prosecuted for hate crimes, but I will stand by my opinion that not all violence is terrorism. People are afraid of violence, yes, but it becomes terrorism when the person who committed the violent act did so for the PURPOSE of making people change their actions or opinions out of fear.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@spark: I did mention before, in reference to school shootings, that intent does influence the classification.</p>
<p>I think the question in regards to Matthew Shepard is whether or not fear was the intent or the consequence. If the attack was because of his sexuality, as originally reported and backed up by some parts of testimony, then I would probably classify it as a hate crime directed at homosexuals as a group with this individual being the target, thus fitting my own definition of terrorism.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if it was just a violent attack on an individual, then the fear was a secondary consequence and not the purpose. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m inclined to go with the former, just because Shepard seems to have been targeted because of his sexuality even though the perpetrators tried to shy around that to keep from being prosecuted for hate crimes, but I will stand by my opinion that not all violence is terrorism. People are afraid of violence, yes, but it becomes terrorism when the person who committed the violent act did so for the PURPOSE of making people change their actions or opinions out of fear.</p>
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		<title>By: Spark</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-9940</link>
		<dc:creator>Spark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7506#comment-9940</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@anna, by your definition, yes, von Brunn committed a terrorist act. Going on a shooting spree at a public, Jewish-identified institution clearly aims to spread fear. But what about, say, Matthew Shepherd&#039;s killers? They were motivated by hate, and one end result was inspiring fear, but is that what they consciously intended? Isn&#039;t there a difference between a crime that&#039;s intended to be a spectacle/political event, and one that isn&#039;t?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@anna, by your definition, yes, von Brunn committed a terrorist act. Going on a shooting spree at a public, Jewish-identified institution clearly aims to spread fear. But what about, say, Matthew Shepherd&#8217;s killers? They were motivated by hate, and one end result was inspiring fear, but is that what they consciously intended? Isn&#8217;t there a difference between a crime that&#8217;s intended to be a spectacle/political event, and one that isn&#8217;t?</p>
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		<title>By: anna</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-9939</link>
		<dc:creator>anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7506#comment-9939</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@magnetic crow:
Many definitions also include phrases like, &quot;violence or the threat of violence.&quot;

I&#039;ve done some scholarly study of this stuff. I&#039;m by no means an expert, but I&#039;ve been around the block on the arguments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@magnetic crow:<br />
Many definitions also include phrases like, &#8220;violence or the threat of violence.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve done some scholarly study of this stuff. I&#8217;m by no means an expert, but I&#8217;ve been around the block on the arguments.</p>
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		<title>By: Magnetic Crow</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/11/when-is-it-terrorism/comment-page-1/#comment-9938</link>
		<dc:creator>Magnetic Crow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7506#comment-9938</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know that an act necessarily needs to be overtly violent to be terrorism.  This is coming within just a few months of a massive, concerted neo-nazi protest against the opening of a Holocaust museum in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/5186735/Neo-Nazi-protests-mar-the-opening-of-the-Illinois-Holocaust-Museum-and-Education-Centre-in-Skokie.html?image=3&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Skokie, Illinois.&lt;/a&gt;  Skokie has a very large population of Jewish Holocaust survivors, and the presence of so many neo-nazis absolutely was meant as an act of terror, to send a message to that particular Jewish community (and all of our communities across the country, I expect) that they are not welcome and should not feel safe.
And, given Brunn&#039;s history (and the history of the nazi and neo-nazi movements) I do not think that him shooting at a black person first, guard or not, was an accident. 

Brunn was living within just a few miles of my house.  I absolutely do not feel safe now, as a Jewish person and a member of the same artist community he was, living here any more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know that an act necessarily needs to be overtly violent to be terrorism.  This is coming within just a few months of a massive, concerted neo-nazi protest against the opening of a Holocaust museum in <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/5186735/Neo-Nazi-protests-mar-the-opening-of-the-Illinois-Holocaust-Museum-and-Education-Centre-in-Skokie.html?image=3" rel="nofollow">Skokie, Illinois.</a>  Skokie has a very large population of Jewish Holocaust survivors, and the presence of so many neo-nazis absolutely was meant as an act of terror, to send a message to that particular Jewish community (and all of our communities across the country, I expect) that they are not welcome and should not feel safe.<br />
And, given Brunn&#8217;s history (and the history of the nazi and neo-nazi movements) I do not think that him shooting at a black person first, guard or not, was an accident. </p>
<p>Brunn was living within just a few miles of my house.  I absolutely do not feel safe now, as a Jewish person and a member of the same artist community he was, living here any more.</p>
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