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	<title>Comments on: France Wants to Ban the Burqa</title>
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	<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/</link>
	<description>As narrated by five of the most charming and vicious women on the internet</description>
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		<title>By: Vic</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/comment-page-1/#comment-20577</link>
		<dc:creator>Vic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 17:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7943#comment-20577</guid>
		<description>I agree with the burqa ban because of one issue and one issue only: 

Security. 

Everyone should be able to be readily identifiable, under a burqa, we don&#039;t know who is in there. Given the recent, but fortunately foiled terror attacks, can we really afford people walking around under tents that may or may not hide weapon or heaven forbid a suicide bomber?

Secondly, many countries around the world do set up measure be it sociological, political, etc to preserve that particular country&#039;s identity and heritage, why are we demonizing the French for something most countries do? Especially Muslim countries, so why the hypocrisy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the burqa ban because of one issue and one issue only: </p>
<p>Security. </p>
<p>Everyone should be able to be readily identifiable, under a burqa, we don&#8217;t know who is in there. Given the recent, but fortunately foiled terror attacks, can we really afford people walking around under tents that may or may not hide weapon or heaven forbid a suicide bomber?</p>
<p>Secondly, many countries around the world do set up measure be it sociological, political, etc to preserve that particular country&#8217;s identity and heritage, why are we demonizing the French for something most countries do? Especially Muslim countries, so why the hypocrisy?</p>
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		<title>By: libhomo</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/comment-page-1/#comment-10591</link>
		<dc:creator>libhomo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7943#comment-10591</guid>
		<description>kithkin: &quot;Moreover, France has a history of being generally anti-religious that we in the US do not share at all.&quot;

What&#039;s wrong with being antireligious?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kithkin: &#8220;Moreover, France has a history of being generally anti-religious that we in the US do not share at all.&#8221;</p>
<p>What&#8217;s wrong with being antireligious?</p>
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		<title>By: Dean</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/comment-page-1/#comment-10551</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7943#comment-10551</guid>
		<description>Many groups wear a particular dress style like Sikhs, Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Nuns, Monks, etc, are they being oppressed and excluded from mainstrean society??

Sarkozy has a hidden agenda in causing this controversy, just looking at his background reveals more than what he says or does. 

The sooner Sarkozy gets voted out of power the better for all concerned.

If any women feels oppressed by being forced to wear or not wear a particular style of clothing then there should be a law to protect them.

The law should not be used as a blunt instrument by banning a particular dress style.

Banning an Islamic dress style in this case will cause animosity between the French Muslims who want to wear it and the French State who will not allow them to do so.

This case will end up at the European Court of Human Rights and the French government will be forced to repeal this law.

More waste of time and European tax payers money.

Dean
(a Lawyer:))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many groups wear a particular dress style like Sikhs, Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Nuns, Monks, etc, are they being oppressed and excluded from mainstrean society??</p>
<p>Sarkozy has a hidden agenda in causing this controversy, just looking at his background reveals more than what he says or does. </p>
<p>The sooner Sarkozy gets voted out of power the better for all concerned.</p>
<p>If any women feels oppressed by being forced to wear or not wear a particular style of clothing then there should be a law to protect them.</p>
<p>The law should not be used as a blunt instrument by banning a particular dress style.</p>
<p>Banning an Islamic dress style in this case will cause animosity between the French Muslims who want to wear it and the French State who will not allow them to do so.</p>
<p>This case will end up at the European Court of Human Rights and the French government will be forced to repeal this law.</p>
<p>More waste of time and European tax payers money.</p>
<p>Dean<br />
(a Lawyer:))</p>
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		<title>By: x. trapnel</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/comment-page-1/#comment-10531</link>
		<dc:creator>x. trapnel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7943#comment-10531</guid>
		<description>Ooops. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bostonreview.net/BR22.5/toc.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; the Okin link.

Oh, and: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.volokh.com/2003_12_14_volokh_archive.html#107169013649272834&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; nice explanation of how an earlier law, that banning &quot;ostensible&quot; religious symbols in schools, wasn&#039;t even particularly faithful to the supposed neutrality of laicite--only crosses of &quot;manifestly excessive dimensions&quot; were banned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooops. <a href="http://www.bostonreview.net/BR22.5/toc.html" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s</a> the Okin link.</p>
<p>Oh, and: <a href="http://www.volokh.com/2003_12_14_volokh_archive.html#107169013649272834" rel="nofollow">here&#8217;s</a> nice explanation of how an earlier law, that banning &#8220;ostensible&#8221; religious symbols in schools, wasn&#8217;t even particularly faithful to the supposed neutrality of laicite&#8211;only crosses of &#8220;manifestly excessive dimensions&#8221; were banned.</p>
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		<title>By: x. trapnel</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/comment-page-1/#comment-10529</link>
		<dc:creator>x. trapnel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7943#comment-10529</guid>
		<description>Part of what&#039;s going on, as Froufrou says, is that the French understanding of secularism, &quot;laicite,&quot; is much more focused on freedom *from* religion--and this really does go back to the anticlericalism of the Revolution. It&#039;s absolutely true that this manifestation of it has ugly ethno-nationalist undertones, but part of it really is an ideology of Frenchness as a revolutionary, color-blind, unitary identity--one that, therefore, is extraordinarily suspicious of anything that smacks of divided loyalties. You can see this in everything from the continued existence of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Foreign_Legion&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;French Foreign Legion&lt;/a&gt; to the Conseil Constitutionnel &lt;a href=&quot;http://jacobtlevy.blogspot.com/2007/11/wishful-thinking-alert-november-15.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;striking down as unconstitutional&lt;/a&gt; a law &lt;i&gt;permitting&lt;/i&gt; social scientists to collect statistical data on ethnicity.

For a more sympathetic take on this *sort* of approach, though, see Susan Moller Okin&#039;s &lt;a&gt;&quot;Is Multiculturalism Bad for Women?&quot; and responses here&lt;/a&gt; (scroll down).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of what&#8217;s going on, as Froufrou says, is that the French understanding of secularism, &#8220;laicite,&#8221; is much more focused on freedom *from* religion&#8211;and this really does go back to the anticlericalism of the Revolution. It&#8217;s absolutely true that this manifestation of it has ugly ethno-nationalist undertones, but part of it really is an ideology of Frenchness as a revolutionary, color-blind, unitary identity&#8211;one that, therefore, is extraordinarily suspicious of anything that smacks of divided loyalties. You can see this in everything from the continued existence of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Foreign_Legion" rel="nofollow">French Foreign Legion</a> to the Conseil Constitutionnel <a href="http://jacobtlevy.blogspot.com/2007/11/wishful-thinking-alert-november-15.html" rel="nofollow">striking down as unconstitutional</a> a law <i>permitting</i> social scientists to collect statistical data on ethnicity.</p>
<p>For a more sympathetic take on this *sort* of approach, though, see Susan Moller Okin&#8217;s <a>&#8220;Is Multiculturalism Bad for Women?&#8221; and responses here</a> (scroll down).</p>
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		<title>By: baraqiel</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/comment-page-1/#comment-10512</link>
		<dc:creator>baraqiel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7943#comment-10512</guid>
		<description>@Froufrou - I&#039;m not saying that if you asked every French person what francite&#039; is, they&#039;d give you the same answer.  Americans would state very different things when asked what &quot;Americanness&quot; is.  And yet the concept of what is and isn&#039;t properly American is something that governs a lot of our policy-making, and indeed we&#039;ve been having a slightly violent, extremely vitriolic culture war for the past 30 years at least over two competing versions of what Americanness is.

The same is true in many countries: how they define themselves has a large effect on how they shape policy.  I could say something about why France in particular has these issues with their definition of unity, their views on religion (not simple, and not just that it&#039;s private), and their conflicted relationship with the work force they imported from the Mahgreb, but the reasoning behind the effect is ultimately not the most interesting thing for the future.  Because, as I said, France is only the first country to react to their Muslim population in this way, but they aren&#039;t alone.

From what I can tell through my reading and travels, and the accounts of friends who have studied in north/west Europe, a lot of the countries there define themselves largely as white, agnostic/apathetic, and tolerant.  If they&#039;re going to incorporate a piously Muslim group of Semitic/African immigrants into their cultures, the first two have to change.  Instead, they seem to be realizing that they&#039;re not really as on board with the third one as they thought they were (shocking!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Froufrou &#8211; I&#8217;m not saying that if you asked every French person what francite&#8217; is, they&#8217;d give you the same answer.  Americans would state very different things when asked what &#8220;Americanness&#8221; is.  And yet the concept of what is and isn&#8217;t properly American is something that governs a lot of our policy-making, and indeed we&#8217;ve been having a slightly violent, extremely vitriolic culture war for the past 30 years at least over two competing versions of what Americanness is.</p>
<p>The same is true in many countries: how they define themselves has a large effect on how they shape policy.  I could say something about why France in particular has these issues with their definition of unity, their views on religion (not simple, and not just that it&#8217;s private), and their conflicted relationship with the work force they imported from the Mahgreb, but the reasoning behind the effect is ultimately not the most interesting thing for the future.  Because, as I said, France is only the first country to react to their Muslim population in this way, but they aren&#8217;t alone.</p>
<p>From what I can tell through my reading and travels, and the accounts of friends who have studied in north/west Europe, a lot of the countries there define themselves largely as white, agnostic/apathetic, and tolerant.  If they&#8217;re going to incorporate a piously Muslim group of Semitic/African immigrants into their cultures, the first two have to change.  Instead, they seem to be realizing that they&#8217;re not really as on board with the third one as they thought they were (shocking!)</p>
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		<title>By: Froufrou</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/comment-page-1/#comment-10494</link>
		<dc:creator>Froufrou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7943#comment-10494</guid>
		<description>Agreed on this being totally wrong, and very much wrapped into France&#039;s history of racism; this idea of oppression of Muslim women was also part of the rhetoric for banning religious symbols from schools in 2004.

But,Kithkin, I wouldn&#039;t say France is antireligion per se; there&#039;s just a very different approach to it than in the US, mainly that religion is something private and has nothing to do in State/public affairs. Which is why Sarkozy wants to legislate on this matter, logical isn&#039;t it!

It also bears pointing out that the son of Hungarian immigrants defining &quot;Frenchness&quot;, (whatever that is, because I disagree with Baraqiel that it&#039;s quite so clear-cut, for the general population at least) is quite amusing. Unfortunately, only the full-on racists from the far-right fringe ever comment on it...and i&#039;m pretty sure they&#039;re beside themselves with glee at this burqa-banning idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed on this being totally wrong, and very much wrapped into France&#8217;s history of racism; this idea of oppression of Muslim women was also part of the rhetoric for banning religious symbols from schools in 2004.</p>
<p>But,Kithkin, I wouldn&#8217;t say France is antireligion per se; there&#8217;s just a very different approach to it than in the US, mainly that religion is something private and has nothing to do in State/public affairs. Which is why Sarkozy wants to legislate on this matter, logical isn&#8217;t it!</p>
<p>It also bears pointing out that the son of Hungarian immigrants defining &#8220;Frenchness&#8221;, (whatever that is, because I disagree with Baraqiel that it&#8217;s quite so clear-cut, for the general population at least) is quite amusing. Unfortunately, only the full-on racists from the far-right fringe ever comment on it&#8230;and i&#8217;m pretty sure they&#8217;re beside themselves with glee at this burqa-banning idea.</p>
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		<title>By: J.D.Regent</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/comment-page-1/#comment-10473</link>
		<dc:creator>J.D.Regent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 01:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7943#comment-10473</guid>
		<description>SarahMC, why you so fucking smart?  You better bring it to the big boys in econ or I will never forgive you for not doing womens studies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SarahMC, why you so fucking smart?  You better bring it to the big boys in econ or I will never forgive you for not doing womens studies.</p>
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		<title>By: BeckySharper</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/comment-page-1/#comment-10471</link>
		<dc:creator>BeckySharper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7943#comment-10471</guid>
		<description>@baraqiel: Completely agree with all of what you said.  French paternalism is almost always xenophobic, whether the target is Muslims from the Mahgreb, West Africans or Jews. There&#039;s this desperate need to homogenize everything into a white European mush.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@baraqiel: Completely agree with all of what you said.  French paternalism is almost always xenophobic, whether the target is Muslims from the Mahgreb, West Africans or Jews. There&#8217;s this desperate need to homogenize everything into a white European mush.</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/06/22/france-wants-to-ban-the-burqa/comment-page-1/#comment-10470</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=7943#comment-10470</guid>
		<description>I just think the entire concept is laughable. &quot;We&#039;re going to liberate women(!!!)...by telling them how they can and can&#039;t dress.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just think the entire concept is laughable. &#8220;We&#8217;re going to liberate women(!!!)&#8230;by telling them how they can and can&#8217;t dress.&#8221;</p>
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