To make a long story short, there’s this new body-image site, started by this woman. The philosophy of the site, ostensibly, is to have a sort of 101-level discussion about body image and self-worth, with (gulp) unmoderated comments. A commenter on this new site happened to click through the contributors and notice, that with the exception of Harpy favourite Kate Harding, the women are universally, well, let’s say, of a certain white, thin mold. As a result, said commenter suggested, not in the most diplomatic terms, that the site would benefit from some commentators outside of that paradigm.
Here is an excerpt from the highly mature response she received from the blogmistress/founder (it is cleverly entitled “Hey Barbie’s [sic] – shut your yapper”):
I am a barbie and proud of it. But I am not proud of the fact that it took me 20 years to figure it out, all the while letting the Jelly’s of the world make me feel like crap.
The green-eyed-monster will kill you. This I know is true.
Yes Jelly, my feelings are “a whoop-dee-do” — They count. They matter, and your attitude is completely discriminatory –just as you accuse us as being.
And, for the record, I don’t feel sorry for you or anyone else —tell me what exactly I am supposed to be feeling sorry for again? How do you define fortunate?
After reading your words, you know what I was left with? “Ohhhh…whoa-is-me.” How long will you cry in your soup before you wake up and realize you wasted your life being pissed off a the wrong thing?
Hugs and kisses ,
Barbie…the goddess you will never be.
Now, ordinarily I would say to myself, “Self, this is just an asshole on the internet being an asshole. Read nothing into this, Self.”
Unfortunately silly blogmistress’s underlying message rings too familiarly for me to be able to leave it at that.
If one patronizes any kind of women’s website, it becomes impossible to escape discussions of body image and weight because they are so utterly personal to us, and so tied to self-image, because we live in a society where women’s primary mode of worth is as decoration. These discussions inevitably descend into utter clusterfucks, satisfying when one is looking to live through a good old dose of vicarious internet drama but obviously generally useless in terms of getting anyone, anywhere.
I shan’t repeat myself on thin privilege, or on why the perspectives of the not-thin should not threaten thin people so much as they seem to. I get that thin women also have experiences of body image, and I don’t think that those experiences are invalid. But I can say from the perspective of someone who fails the BMI test that I feel like there is plenty of space in this culture already devoting to the airing of the body neuroses of able-bodied white “thin” ciswomen – this is what women’s magazines appear to exist for – and that I find that it’s too easy in the atmosphere of these “supportive” body-image discussions for those same women to insist on centralizing their experiences, and for them to slip into saying things that inadvertently insult/question people of other backgrounds, and privilege certain body types over others.
And I will also say this:
Obviously everybody wants to support each other, and I don’t think the commenter approached the issue in a particularly constructive manner. But, then, I don’t expect as much of commenters on progressive blogs as I do of their masters and mistresses.
I think that the way we really support each other as women is never to presume that our shared gender means that we are immune to other forms of social stratification, i.e. race, class, etc. Among these, like it or not, is the body-type hierarchy, in which, for better or for worse, certain kinds of bodies are more “socially acceptable” than others.
I know that thin women have often said that they too feel alienated by body standards, and I do not discount that experience. Men also feel alienated by patriarchy, probably far more frequently than many of them would like to admit. But just as some man’s personal alienation from patriarchy doesn’t cancel out patriarchy as a force of social power, a thin woman’s discomfort with body standards does not cancel out fat hatred.
Now, were this a blog that claimed to speak exclusively for thin women I suppose that would be one thing. But it’s a blog that claims to speak for all of us. And it’s at that point that my patience with listening to a thin woman’s claims of persecution, and more generally that her experience is sufficiently universal to cover everyone, ends.
Anyone agree?
Never commented here before though am an occasional reader – am here from the comments on WATRD, but don’t usually read that (and do read SP)…. Anyway! In answer to your question, I agree with you! I have not a lot more to add to that, because, um: I agree!
Although I wonder about your comment that [many, presumably 'mainstream'] women’s magazines are probably part of the “plenty of space in this culture already devoting to the airing of the body neuroses of able-bodied white “thin” ciswomen”… I would argue they’re spaces dedicated to the perpetuation of body neuroses etc etc of people who read them whilst *pretending* to be a space for airing them> I think this goes beyond their readership into the wider cultural environment via the horrible expectations and ‘standards’ they reinforce whilst pretending to be sympathetic about. Those magazines are ‘orrible to everyone, serve to keep perpetuating thin, white, cis etc privileges, and are part of the problem (I think, anyway) with how lots of people with those privileges (but who have their body image issues too) are not always as easily able to recognise them. >>>Boo-hiss<<< those magazines, on all fronts!
She just seemed so… angry.
What was really so surprising about that post by MamaVision was that it was such an elementary case of someone being confronted with their own privilege for the first time. I understand that as a woman who has gone through an eating disorder she doesn’t see herself as privileged, and she’s probably not used to the term “privilege” in an academic sense. I think she was probably thinking, well I didn’t grow up like those kids on Gossip Girl, so OF COURSE *I’m* not privileged.
That post and the subsequent comments I think show MamaVision going through a serious moment of disequilibrium, and (hopefully) at the end she’ll realize that she is in fact privileged, in her thinness, her whiteness, her Westernness etc. I just am astonished that in her blogging career, she’s never had that pointed out to her before. I mean, she literally at one point said “what do you mean by privilege? what is privilege? how am I privileged?” I guess everyone has to learn at some point, so maybe her writing and attitude will improve after this.
But before that can happen, she needs to learn some editing technique, and own up to her own weaknesses. That whole “but it was sarcasm!” excuse is so grating. It wasn’t, it was shock and anger, so own it.
I do. I think it’s a common trend in the progressive blogosphere in general. For example, conversations about the hierarchy of color where POC with lighter skin are more “prized” than POC with darker skin will inevitably be derailed by comments along the line of “I’m so pale! I wish I were darker!” Really not the same thing. At all.
It’s easy to be defensive when someone seems to suggest that our experiences are less valid because we’re part of X privileged group. The trick is not to be.
(It is just me, or is that response just like the Republicans’ response to Sotomayor’s “wise Latina” comment?)
FE: Good comparison. I thought it was like the reaction of a man confronted with male privilege for the first time. That visceral pushback when confronted…
But I agree, on any widely-read, reasonably loosely moderated blog comments about privilege quickly get suffocated by people claiming that they suffer too because they are too pale/have flat hair/ are “boring and white”/aren’t even that thin compared to their friends or any other number of white girl privilege indicators. I know I’ve thought that too, and checked my self deliberately when I can.
And now there’s a quasi-apology.
Agree. Plus, APOSTROPHE FAIL! x2!
Unfortunately, her apology indicates that she still isn’t able to acknowledge her privilege, still doesn’t get it. I think she took away the wrong lessons from this blow-up, which doesn’t give me much hope for the future of WATRD. Too bad, it had promise.
The apology is pathetic and adds insult to injury. It’s all “I’m sorry you feel that way, but since I didn’t mean it that way the problem is yours.” She pays some lip service to seeing the points of her critics, but she really refuses to unpack the implications of her response. krismcn, you are absolutely right, she has totally missed the point. The misplaced apostrophe only underscores how hastily she shot that little missive off. (Unless it indicates that she’s an idiot, but having not read enough of her work I’m inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt and call it a typo borne of haste.)
PilgrimSoul, I’m not trying to be dense but I just went to the site and clicked around and I really don’t get what they’re trying to do. Is it just those women discussing their own weight/body issues? I agree with your point, btw, I’m just quite confused by the blog itself. I also feel like they don’t know who they want to be speaking to, teens, mothers etc…
Ok I just read some more of “mamav”‘s post and replies in the comments and wow. fucking clueless. Which is ok, but she seems completely closed minded. Its surprising from someone who would start a website such as that.
I just waned to write and say thanks for being honest and real and raw about all this fat hate/thin privilege stuff.
its taken far too long to penetrate my skull but its finally getting there… i’m finally seeing how my attitudes towards my own body have hurt both me and people around me – especially people i love. its really hard to come to grips with that, but also really true.
i suppose my own difficulty with it shouldn’t surprise me. its the invisibility factor that i hate most about privilege: when you have it, it takes WAY too long to actually see that its there.
anyways. enough of the rambles. thanks. really a lot – i’m grateful for my eyes being opened even when the reality of what i’m finally understanding in my thick head is hard and painful.
Sounds way too much like the old MRA argument that claims that everyone focuses on women’s issues and poor men are totally demonized/ignored. But substitute ‘thin’ and ‘fat’ for ‘men’ and ‘women’.
Or maybe ‘barbie’ and ‘jelly’ (WTF? )
I remember Kate Harding blogged about her decision to join, and that she was nervous about doing so for many reasons. Glancing over her posts there, I think she’s only reposted things from Shapely Prose, which is a good way to have a foot in the water. I wonder how she’ll react to this. She’s one of my favorite bloggers (along with you five, of course).
I absolutely agree with you, however. A thin woman has a right to feel that her body is being policed, because all women’s bodies are policed. But thin, white, able-bodied, cis, etc. women need to have a sense of perspective and proportion about body image issues that this woman is clearly lacking. Namely, if you can find multiple people in magazine ads that even remotely look like you, such that the comparison is not absurd on its face, just maybe you’re not the worst off person in the world. Even better if you used to actually be a person in magazine ads, as this woman was (or at least, she was a model).
I don’t have anything more to add to the discussion, since y’all have said it already.
Kate Harding just pulled out of that blog. http://kateharding.net/
I looked at it once a few weeks ago. It didn’t impress me very much. I’m glad I stayed away.
Oh for Pete’s sake, if you expect *anything* from fashion magazines other than doing whatever it takes to sell product, you’re sadly naive. My advice to thin white women is not to be overly pleased to see faces and bodies like yours in those magazines. You’re just part of product placement. The rest of us can take our absence as a backhanded compliment-we’re just too strong as individuals. We’d overpower the commodity.
Unfortunately, as a thin, white, conventionally attractive woman, I have had her response at first when confronted with my privilege. I admit NOW that I am privileged to not be discriminated, to be acceptable via society’s vision, and try to be sensitive to others’ experiences. It is a weeping wailing shame that a site that purports to speak about these issues openly and candidly could have such a rude, cruel, blindly ignorant, and badly structured response to a very true observation.
Wow… really, wow.
I notice they have put up an apology though, but still… wow.
No wonder feminism feels like it has plateaued when there has been such a marked breakdown in the so-called ‘sisterhood’. I hope she’s embarrassed by her behaviour. That kind of response is not warranted.
She’s entitled to her opinion and own brand of feminism (what I would call feminism-lite), but that kind of attitude is just plain disturbing. I don’t think I’ll be adding that site to my morning repertoire of reading…
… also, would it kill her to use spell-check?
That was an apology? If I tried to pass that off when I was a kid, my mom would have refused to acknowledge it!
As a thin, white woman, I realize that body image problems affect everyone. I love Beth Ditto (the famous “fat person” du jour, it seems…) and the comments I hear about her weight/general appearance make me feel sick!!! But I do feel that snarking on thin women is wrong, too. I *hate* the tabloids that publish celebrities in their bikinis and pick apart where there is cellulite. As a skinny person, that makes me feel just as sick because if “so and so” isn’t perfect/has cellulite where I do, and less of it, how will anyone find me attractive? (rhetorical, BTW)
This issue is so overly-discussed, anyway, that I have no desire to even look at the blog (especially considering the caliber of the comments re-posted here.)
Very late to the party here, but can someone explain to me what “cis” is?
Thx,
HR
I didn’t read the offending blog, but in general, I think there are thin, white, cis, etc etc privileged women who hate their bodies and themselves SO MUCH that it’s impossible for them to have perspective. I’m offering this as a possible explanation, not a defense.
@HillRat: Wikipedia says, Cisgender is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual’s gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one’s sex. Cisgender is a “newer term” that means “someone who is comfortable in the gender they were assigned at birth.” “Cisgender” is used to contrast “transgender” on the gender spectrum.
[...] Item the third: More “body positivity” FAIL. And apology FAIL. See also here and here. [...]
One more comment about that bullshit. If you read the comments over there you’ll note the prevalence of fat “snark” ie “eat a cookie fat girls.” Yet they still want to whine about how thin girls have it just as hard? The answer is literally right in front of their eyes.
I get your complaint, but what if someone left a similar comment on this blog claiming that it CAN’T discuss feminism because (correct me if I’m wrong)all but one of your contributors are heterosexual and thus are blinded by that privilege?
Of course they should strive for diversity among contributors (and if you click through to the article they do say that’s a high priority of the site) but I take issue with the notion that it’s necessary for those with the least “privilege” should dominate progressive discourse.
gah, I wish I could edit! Replace that last “should” with “to”
@Spark
Thx for the 411, I think I had trouble finding the term ’cause I was just looking for “cis.”
@Lauren
I have criticized the Harpies for the decidedly white-bread flavor of this blog.
@Lauren – I can’t speak for the Harpies on what they intend this blog to be, but it is possible to write a personal blog, even a personal group blog, that takes on feminist issues. A personal blog is never going to represent all experiences, nor should it even try — write what you know, after all (not that that means you shouldn’t continue to learn).
However, the blog under discussion is not positioned as a personal blog. It was described by its founder as intended to be a “resource” for all. The “about” page contains the following sentence: “The goal was to pull together body image activists from all different perspectives and philosophies”. If that was the goal, the blog has clearly failed. It is not the case that those with the least privilege should necessarily *dominate* discourse, but they should be equally represented, especially when the discourse in question has an explicitly stated goal to do just that. (Indeed, I don’t think anyone said that underrepresented voices should dominate, but it’s interesting that you interpreted things that way.)
By not included those without white privilege, cis privilege, het privilege, etc., they are implicitly saying that white, cis, straight women represent “all different perspectives and philosophies”. Not only is that false, it is silencing.
Lauren, we don’t claim to be anything we’re not. We all know we have a lot of privileges, which are undeserved and unfair. That MamaV lady – had to ask her commenters what privilege meant.
@sarahMC: right. And worse, when it was (repeatedly) explained to her she still was unwilling to acknowledge it existed.
I would echo what SarahMC and baraqiel said, basically.
I do tend to think the lesser-privileged ought to dominate the discourse, if only because they’re the ones who usually tend to be closest to the source of oppression and they see it the most clearly. I don’t think I’m prevented from speaking about their oppression as a result of my privilege; but I am prevented, I think, generally, from claiming to be a greater authority on it than they are, and I am CERTAINLY prevented from telling them their anger at my privilege is unfair/undeserved/irrelevant. Anger at undeserved privilege, it seems to me, is the animating force of all progressive movements, and it out to continue to be such. IMHO!
Also, @Hill Rat, and I think, at least on that score, you haven’t gotten into much trouble here for saying that, if you’ve gotten into any trouble at all. We are white bread. We do our best to be otherwise, but I certainly wouldn’t claim we are any huge success at it.
Thanks all for the thoughtful replies. Truth be told, I may be too much of a Kate Harding Fangirl to agree with most criticisms of her new venture
Lauren, Kate dropped off the project! I am a fan-girl of hers too, which is why I understood her reservations in the first place and why I am glad she decided to leave.
@Pilgrim Soul
I didn’t mean to imply that I had taken any heat for pointing that out. Really I would say quite the opposite. Much to your credit when the privilege shoe is on the other foot, the Harpies have the intellectual integrity to see and acknowledge it.