Baroo? Via pigpogm @ Flickr.
I’m fairly certain that this will provoke somebody’s ire, but I’m going to put it out there anyway, and let slip the ring-bearing dogs of war.
While we were visiting the fam, Sister Dude asked her brother if he would stand up for her at her wedding, which she intimated would be next summer. Sister’s Mister is a really good guy, and Dude was happy to say yes. It was very sweet. Yay all around. 
But here’s the weird part. Even though Sister and Mister live together and have been discussing their nuptial intentions and plans for who knows how long, her information and request of the Dude was all labelled ”hypothetical,” as they are not yet officially engaged, because they’ve agreed that Mister should plan and execute some sort of big production and do a stunning reveal of the One Ring and all that.
Now, let’s not get into ”Marriage, Yea or Nay?”, ’cause that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about this other ritual, The Popping of The Question, the one that doesn’t grant any legal rights, or even, in this case, provide any new information. It’s their decision, of course, and I’m glad that they’re in accord. But I’m puzzled. They already know they’re going to marry (as do most their respective families). They’ve discussed when, thought about where, decided who will be in the wedding party, how much they’ll spend and on what. That all seems very sensible. But the idea that their commitment is not yet, well, real, because Mister hasn’t gone down on one knee or rented ad space on the Goodyear Blimp or whatever the kids are doing these days, is weird. It is decidedly not sensible. And it makes me uncomfortable. (Also, I shouldn’t say “kids,” Sister and Mister are over 30.)
Of course, it isn’t their job to make me comfortable, and regardless, my discomfort isn’t about Sister and Mister or their relationship.
I’m uncomfortable with this idea of ”officially engaged” for the same reasons that I’m uncomfortable with the idea of “virginity.” Today, in the US at least, sex and relationships usually happen on a continuum. Most people don’t go from no sexual experience to every sexual experience in a day, nor do they want to. The idea of the on-off switch–virgin/not-virgin–belies that there is a world of sexual experiences (a minority of which revolve around wangular penetration). And yet we still culturally define (and freak out about) “sex” as PIV.
Likewise, most people don’t do the old-school courtship thing where sisters, lolling on twin beds in their parents’ homes, breathlessly await for misters to announce their intentions. The couples that I know who live together or were married came to those decisions mutually, over time, through conversations. Just as most people sexually go from holding hands and kissing to touching and so forth, couples go from meeting, to casually dating or hooking up or whatever, to dating exclusively, often living together, etc. (not always in that order, but you get the idea). All of these things have their “firsts,” and all of them should be broached mutually. Besides which, now sex is mostly delinked with marriage, and a huge percentage of young couples who marry in the West today do so after cohabiting (PDF, beware of handwringing). So the simplistic engaged/not-engaged, AKA legitimate/illegitmate relationship label thing bothers me, because it belies how modern relationships actually work.
But there’s another troublng similarity, in the power dynamic. Weddings (and to some extent, marriage) are mostly focused around the bride, because it is her status that changes. Upon engagement, she is marked with a symbol of her promised commitment, he rarely is. She usually changes her name, he rarely does. This stuff is changing, just as the stuff around sex (which lowers the woman’s status but raises the man’s) is changing, but that work is not complete.
In the meantime, there’s this weird lag between how straight romantic relationships are changing for the better, so that Sister and Mister can be friends and partners and allies and come to their decision to wed together over time, and the familiar-and-thus-comfortable cultural traditions that surround and serve to legitimate those relationships, which still demonstrate how engagement and marriage are about status and ownership.
There are related issues here I’m still chewing on, the most salient being the recent focus on the dude’s job to make his proposal some sort of grand, often public performance of devotion, a kind of ritual self-abasement before his beloved that promises an uxorious future that he may or may not deliver, but I’m not sure where that fits in yet. I’m pretty sure it has something to do with compensating for the fact that the dude gets to decide when–and if–he will propose. The power lies with him to open that door. (Although the woman can shut it, of course, but why would she, since marriage is what all women desperately crave? Amirite, fellas?)
Anyway, it’s clear I still haven’t sorted all these various sub-issues out in my head–as I noted, this is what confused me on my summer vacation–but I wanted to start a conversation with our readers, who I’m sure will qualify and challenge and tease out the thoughts I’ve been entertaining for the last few days.
Lastly, before you weigh in, please note that I’m speaking in generalities about the West, and specifically North America, here. I know there are women who have proposed to men. I know there are men who wear engagement rings. I know women who don’t change their names, or change them for other reasons. I know there are variations based on religious beliefs. I know there’s an exception for every rule. I’m also not speaking about your relationship. I am not attacking your choice on whether and how to engage or marry. I am thinking out loud about how engagement is currently figured in our society at large. That said, I welcome your thoughts and comments.
I blame all that bullshit engagement/wedding porn that gets crammed down women’s throats (Fuck you very much, Lifetime, Oxygen, WE, VH1, E!, MTV, Cosmo, Marie Claire et all). Engagement is just not engagement–we’re told–unless there’s the whole dog-and-pony show of a man dropping to one knee and asking.
And don’t even fucking get me started about engagement rings. I know plenty of perfectly rational professional women who turn into Gollum over a diamond solitaire.
I totally subscribe to your notion, Dorky, that adults become engaged when they discuss marriage and plans for the future. When there’s intention, that’s engagement. I never got a ring when I was engaged–I told the dude I really didn’t want him spending what little cash he had on The Precioussssss just so I could fulfill society’s expectations. The knowledge that we were planning our lives together was enough. (And yeah, it didn’t work out, after which I went out and dropped a whole bunch of money buying myself a ring, which I am wearing right now–I call it my “disengagement ring”, and it’s brought me no end of pleasure).
/screed (slow day at work!)
i don’t have anything to add or help you sort out, sorry. i just wanted to let you know i think the phrase, “wangular penetration” is hilarious.
You don’t seem confused at all.
The one-directional nature of “official” engagements is extremely disturbing to me. The man chooses the woman. The woman waits around, hoping to be chosen (often by a man who chooses her companionship and love every day!).
We know a couple that’s been dating for maybe three years or so. The woman is pestering the man for a proposal. It’s nauseating to witness first-hand.
“How did he propose?” is a question that never fails to roll the eyes far back in my head. I have to keep my sarcasm and incredulity to myself because it will be automatically discounted (I’m divorced, so I must hate marriage and men, right??)
Looking forward to the comments on this one!
“wangular penetration” heeheehee
I have to agree with your discomfort. It is rather nauseating, and feels to me as if a man were claiming his prize by putting a ring on your finger. Barf.
My man is somewhat influenced by this culture, too, in that he sometimes gets anxious that I expect him to propose at some point. That’s when I tell him that when we’re ready to get married, we’ll just make a mutual decision and then invite some friends out for some beers. Now that’s an engagement I can get behind!
Poorly formulated thought: This is kind of odd, but somehow it bothers me less that they have discussed it. Thus, it’s not just expected because it’s a societal tradition, but because they’ve made the issue rather specific to themselves. Here, it sounds like she always dreamed of a formal proposal (yeah, that’s not necessarily right, but it’s extremely culturally ingrained so we’ll skip that step for another post), and he’s fulfilling a fantasy of hers. They’re obviously not letting this technicality hold them back from planning things, it’s not like they have strategically never spoken of marriage before, etc. It’s more that this is what she always wanted for some reason or another and he’s willing to fulfill that, so off they go to do something fancy.
I think they know it’s kind of silly, but they want to do it anyway. Better than nothing?
My boyfriend and I just went through many of the questions and anxieties you’re talking about here. We more or less decided months back that we would get married next summer at the city hall in the city he grew up in, but we didn’t tell families at that point. He was all weird about it not being “official,” and after telling a friend here, a friend there about our plans for the past few months, I just wanted to tell my mom goddamnit! Because it -was- official having come out of a series of discussions between the two of us sans production.
What I eventually learned was going on with him was that he was getting all anxious about finding a ring and having some sort of “thing” to present ring, even though all that isn’t really how we operate, but he kind of got caught up in “what you’re supposed to do.”
Anyway, we ended up deciding to go on a day long date, and each asked the other(in front of a Tompkins dog park, where we’ve stalked dogs since the beginning of our relationship), and it was lovely.
Regarding engagement accoutrements, we picked out a pretty opal ring together, and I got him a fancy bag that he’s been on about forever (which we now joke symbolizes my vagina).
I think the main thing that bothers me is the idea of legitimacy. A newlywed couple has more legitimacy as a “real” couple than a couple who have co-habitating for years. My boyfriend and I live together with our son, and I can attest to the stigma. People often assume we are married, and there are some that act very upset when they find out otherwise. They act like we were tricking them and getting legitimacy we didn’t deserve! Suddenly the years we have shared are easily dismissed. I think it is much the same with engagement… you can date a guy seriously for ages, but as soon as you are officially engaged, you gain status and somehow have a more permanent relationship instantly.
What concerns me most is the possibility/probability that if SHE (for whatever reasons) has expectations of and desires for the more traditional symbolism of their commitment (engagement ring, bridal showers, wedding) and HE does not share or at least understand and respect these desires (or vice-versa) they may have core value differences that need to be addressed and resolved in order to have a successful, life long relationship. If, in fact , that is their goal.
And for those of you who don’t desire the traditional, please be respectful of those who do. Don’t assume to understand what motivates others when you have only your own experiences and influences to rely on.
I see two sides of it here.
On the one hand, I think it’s important for couples to be able to talk about their future in a hypothetical way without it being certain, And Thus We Have Become Engaged. It’s akin to the way you’d want to talk about sex before trying it (um, ideally).
My ex and I talked about getting married and having kids many, many times, and he bought me a ring, but eventually we decided it wasn’t what either of us wanted, and broke up. I think the breathless “will you marry me” “omigod yes” moment exists to signal serious intent. Not just a “this is how I see my future, and since I’m with you this is how I see us together” but a transition to “how are we going to build a life”
On the other, it’s a much more stable evolution from “dating” to “settled” without those sorts of high pressure hurdles. Maybe Dude’s Sister and her Mister just aren’t sure, and that Big Proposal Moment will happen when they both /are/ sure and want to formalize their relationship.
I don’t know if I’ll ever want that moment or that ring again – I kind of doubt it (I mean, I’ll want to have a long term relationship/marriage/family, just that the trappings aren’t what get you there)
So true, AmandaS. My spouse and I were together for nearly five years before we got married, and lived together for two of those years. And so now, what are we supposed to do — forget those five years? Act like it doesn’t count? When people ask me “Can you believe it’s almost been a year?” I’m like, “Uh, yeah, because I was living it for years before.”
And of course, when we did decide to get married, we did it our way: by talking about it and deciding together. No ring — I am against them, and anyway, we had just bought a house together. We had way better things to spend the money on. Surprisingly, people were mostly okay with this version of events. Only a few people asked to see “the ring” (or the Precioussss, BeckySharper) and no one asked “How did he propose?” Maybe a sign of progress? I am somewhat hopeful…
Yes I am also perturbed and bewildered by this hangup. Even the most progressive people definitely asked me “how did it happen?” or even “how did he propose?” when I told people I was planning to wed. Of course it makes more sense for couples who subscribe to traditional romance tropes in other ways, but for an otherwise “sensible,” progressive couple like Sister Dude and Mister Sister Dude, I do find it a strange custom to hang on to.
My best friend and her husband were totally like that. It drove me crazy!
Thirds on wangular penetration. Awesome!
Before I start, I currently reside in the south. Perhaps that can be used to explain some of the similarly confusing examples I have encountered. I have a friend who most recently waited all summer for it to happen post-ring shopping with her honey. I also have friends who recently got engaged, who had been living together for multiple years, where one had commented to me before that if he was still single in a few years he would be mad. Since when does unmarried = single?
And as a last aside, my SIL got a manicure the weekend she knew my bro would propose which brings me to a side rant. What’s with all the ring/hand only photos on FB? What about the DUDE/DUDETTE?
OK, sorry, nothing substantive but sometimes the southern culture thing is a bit overwhelming. Thanks for the post, PhDork.
SarahMC, I know a similar couple — dating 2 years, and she makes literally 4x what he does, owns a home, and is a high-powered big city executive, but she is “waiting patiently” (her words). She’s made clear to her friends and family that she wants kids, and before they started dating, she was contemplating storing her eggs, but I don’t know that she’s explicitly said to him, “I want kids, so either shit or get off the pot here and let’s get going.” I think she is worried about “scaring him away” even though on every level, she is the real prize here. Just as you say, it is completely nauseating to witness firsthand.
I hadn’t really thought much about this topic before you brought it up, PhDork, so thanks for starting the discussion. I for one would prefer not to have my bf create some self-effacing scene professing his eternal devotion, because as you say, we talk about stuff and come to decisions together. I do think it would be nice to have the “official” decision be a good occasion for us, but I also don’t think there’s any need to act like we don’t all know where this is going. I don’t interrupt anyone who wants to talk about what we will do if we get married, because let’s be honest — that is clearly where we both want it to go, and it is stupid to pretend otherwise and to act like it’s not sort of a done deal already.
Christina… yes! I dated my first husband for FIVE years before we were married, and it always confused me (and often royally pissed me off!) when people would count our years together from the wedding date. “Oh, your anniversary! How does it feel to have made it through your first year together?” Grrr…. you mean our SIXTH, dumbass.
And Misscalculate… all hail the weird and confusing life of a feminist in the South. I live in the grey area between Southern and Midwestern cultures, and am in a state of near-constant confusion.
I am going to my younger cousin’s wedding shower on Saturday, and I’m bracing myself for the onslaught of questions regarding my marital status and when-oh-when will the boyf and I ever get married? Do I think he’ll pop the question soon? Maybe *this* Christmas? Am I angry with him for not asking me yet?
Like I must be living my life in slow motion, waiting for my partner to validate me with his offer of marriage.
Then another round the following week at the wedding.
BARF.
But the idea that their commitment is not yet, well, real, because Mister hasn’t gone down on one knee or rented ad space on the Goodyear Blimp or whatever [...] is weird
YES.
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES.
I found this article, along with many of the others I have read here on this site, to somewhat hit home for me.
My older cousin has been pining over the day that ANYONE will pop the question ever since she started dating(uhh 12 years ago). I have had to be around to witness all of this. It’s like I can’t even fathom how pathetic of a person bases their entire life’s choices on hoping one day some guy will ‘POP THE QUESTION.’ Every man/boy/manboy she’s dated, I’ve had to hear from week one about how she knows he’s the one. After two months with anyone, all she talks about to me is “signs” he’s given her indicating that he’s going to propose in the near future.
Gimme a break.
I should add that while I am in this exact situation and have this exact thought very often, I am totally excited about my mister Popping The Question because I can’t wait to see what he’ll do that he thinks is surprising/romantic/special. To me, it’s not the status change that’s a big deal, it’s the excitement of getting a shiny surprise present!
Maybe he will pop out of a bush while I’m jogging and scream SURPRISE PRESENT!!
Maybe he will hide it in the bottom of my Ben and Jerry’s to discover when I’ve had a shitty day.
Maybe he will take me on a trip to the moon and space-propose!
The possibilities are endless…
mary, I think “discussion followed by beers with friends” sounds great. It’s an important decision, and you get to share your happy-togetherness without needing to fire up the confetti cannons.
That’s a good thought, DangerMouse. What’s most important is that they have thought through things and come to a mutual conclusion. And I do think it’s mutual, not just a childhood fantasy of Sister’s that Mister is good-naturedly fulfilling. They seem to be a very good match, with enough similarities and enough differences, too. It may be that there is some “well, this is what one does,” I don’t know. I assume she does hold some more-tradtional ideas, as she did express concern that others would judge her for having a man standing on her side during the ceremony. (Mister’s sister will be on his.)
It may also be that they want The Story, to tell friends, family, kids down the line. I get that. Stories are important. But engineering it–make sure your manicure is fresh, misscalculate!–is the thing that just boggles me. Setting it up to play it out according to a script, with all the sets and costumes and such, so you can wow the crowds with your awesome creative romanticalness? That seems like performing your life, not living it. (And I understand the relationships between performance, ritual, and “life,” really I do.)
That said, the breathless OMG! thing that mkp mentions seems slightly problematic, too, because it can happen before a couple might really be ready to marry–say, when it slips out in flagrante delicto. As BeckySharper said, planning (or, y’know, living) your life together seems more indicative of commitment than planning your wedding.
And so, AmandaS and christina, you know I’m on your team with the “legitimacy” thing. Most people I actually know don’t doubt my commitment to the Dude, but new people can assume it’s just a casual thing, and when they learn we’ve been together for so long but not made it legal, I see flickers of “what’s wrong with her/him/them?” or even get comments: why aren’t we married?
But that’s a post for another day. RMH, is this your fiance’s bag?
On one hand, we could argue that since she and the mister are doing the deciding, rather than the mister and her father…progress has been made.
I struggled for a long time with “getting engaged.” As you point out PhDork, it was MY status that was changing.
It was significantly important to my husband to formally ask me to marry him, and so he did. He wanted to buy me a ring; I think it was some sort of feather fluffing ritual for him. So when he asked, and presented me with the ring – I responded in kind with my own declaration of intent, and other such mush, and a gift for him – a watch.
Hill Rat struck a chord in a similar vein on the post about name changes, which Pilgrim Soul summed up nicely, “you can control what you do, but you can’t control how it’s interpreted.” My husband and I look like we went through the traditional engagement ritual, and on some level, we did. But we also were very careful to understand the implications and history of the ritual, and decide if we could adapt it to suit us.
I have found myself nonplussed by this very sort of situation regarding several self-identified feminist friends and their partners. I think I assumed that, having mutually decided on marriage the whole “event” of a “surprise” proposal would be beside the point — even problematic for feminist women and their partners, since the assumption always seemed to be the guy would do the ring-buying and the proposal on bended knee. But maybe part of that is my total aversion to surprises or formal events where I’m expected to have a big public emotional reaction. I understand (personally) the value of making a formal/public commitment to a partner in the form of an engagement and marriage . . . but I really don’t understand the staged quality of these surpise-yet-not-surprise proposal events.
Oh, I also wanted to add that people will raise their eyebrows about length of time together and commitment and what-not no matter what. People love to judge.
We decided to get married after we’d known each other a very short period of time. It took us longer to work ourselves up to a wedding than to decide to have one…and we’re having a baby before we have our wedding anniversary…People are constantly making reference to our mental stability because of the speed with which things occurred. Can’t make everyone happy…
I do not think the courts recognize breach of promise suits any more, although I could be wrong.
Technically, until a verbal contract is agreed to, the proposal and acceptance, all things marriage are hypothetical.
Once the verbal contract exists, legal jeopardy is a potential.
As I said, not so much any more, but not so very long ago either. Traditions frequently outlive the rules they were based on.
Coming from the Miss Manners school of social relations, I believe that the formality of a public engagement is important, unlike the public announcement of the loss of one’s virginity. Why? Because an engagement is a change in social status and hence is a matter of public interest, unlike sexual status. You and your betrothed have committed to the process of creating a new social unit. People should treat you differently than when you were single, therefore. Obviously the difference isn’t global; it only applies to changes regarding your relationship. That is to say, it’s not okay any more to offer to fix up your engaged friend, but their work and family and friends are all the same.
How you get there and how you announce are different questions, neither of which requires (imo) any particular ceremony or ritual. Making it public and clear as soon as possible is, I think, reasonable and considerate. Although this isn’t the way we did it, I like the idea of a mutual pledge with or without gifts. Ritualizing important events in our lives helps us to treat them with the thought and seriousness they deserve.
When we got engaged, Mr Manager and I bought a ring for me. At the time, I was a second year law student. Inside my ring I had engraved “as consideration”. We still laugh about it.
Ritualizing important events in our lives helps us to treat them with the thought and seriousness they deserve.
It’s so interesting that you say that, mischief (can I call you mischief?); I think ritual just as often (if not more often) leads to mindlessness. First we do X, then we do Y, stand up sit down fight fight fight, say how do you do and shake hands, amen. I understand creating rituals for oneself, but honor for rituals qua rituals seem like the sanctified version of “because I said so, that’s why!” Maybe it’s that you feel the ritual creates the thought and seriousness, and I feel the thought and seriousness creates the ritual?
annajcook, I think that aversion to being fussed over/ a spectacle is part of my anti-engagement-hoopla, too. Which is weird, because in some cases, I’m perfectly okay being the center of attention, and I’m comfortable in front of groups in most settings (and if teaching ain’t a performance, I don’t know what is). Of course, it could also be that I don’t like the idea of spreadin’ all my business out for all to see (these recent posts excepted…), or the fact that finding your partner is an important thing, so treating it like you’ve just won the lottery seems inappropriate to me.
@Ph.Dork: Only if I can call you Dorky.
Sure, that’s cool.
I think it can be either way, but the goal is to be mindful, or, as BeckyS and I would say, to have kavannah when you engage in ritual. If the ritual doesn’t work for you, change it or create a new one. I think many rituals may have good foundations, but all the additions and language/culture,historical changes that occur may have made them not useful.
The point of ritual in and of itself is a good one, I think: to stop for a moment and honor an event that is significant in your life. As our lives get faster and more complex, I think we lose that and so lose a sense that some occasions are truly significant and worth experiencing fully.
I belong to a Jewish feminist group and one of the best things we do is create or revise rituals. Being in the moment is a skill, and a good ritual can help you achieve that when you are experiencing a momentous life event.
@ mischiefmanager:
People should treat you differently than when you were single [I]t’s not okay any more to offer to fix up your engaged friend
As someone who has not been single for over a decade but currently has no plans to become engaged or married, I find this idea curious. I can’t think of any ways in which my hypothetical engagement should cause anyone to treat me differently, and I certainly hope that my friends gave up on fixing me up with other people long ago (as I’m pretty vocally non-poly).
I understand that an engagement and/or marriage is a social/public thing, but I don’t really know how that changes the way people should treat you that differs from when you were “just” in an exclusive relationship.
I agree with Mischiefmanager about ritual creating meaning as well as with PhDork about meaning creating ritual (HA! see how I got to have it both ways?!) Ritual exists because humans needed a way to invest certain emotionally important life-cycle events with gravity and significance.
Religious ritual is extremely important to me, which is why–all things being equal–I would prefer to have a religious wedding, even though I have very feminist secular views about the institution of marriage itself. The presence of God invests things marriage with dignity and importance, and can strengthen people’s commitment to it.
If you believe in God and ritual, that is. If one is atheist, one can presumably find other ways of celebrating that which is significant to you.
Oh, and Mischiefmanager, you would have liked the drash I did at my bat mitzvah–it was all about how reassessing and changing traditional ideas is an essential and mandatory part of Judaism (fortunately I got a good Torah portion that totally supported that).
@unpossible: Again, I may be leaning far to the traditional side here, but it seems to me that becoming engaged and announcing your engagement makes the commitment public in a way that continuing a LTR doesn’t. That’s not to say that a LTR shouldn’t be taken seriously. But I do think that making a decision, announcing that decision to the people who are important to you and then following through on the decision is a different process than simply deciding to live together and then staying together. That’s not to say that everyone who goes through the process does it thoughtfully, but it is saying that a ritual, if done right, can give the participants an opportunity to consider the step they are about to take.
To take an easy example of people treating you differently, when does your SO start getting invited to family parties and weddings and so forth? (I’m talking about the ones where you’re not supposed to bring a date.) Miss Manners says that when a couple is engaged, the betrothed should be invited to everything. That makes a lot of sense to me. If you’re living together, at what point can you be considered a part of the family?
I love Miss Manners. She’s hilarious and very wise, and I recommend her books highly.
@BeckyS: Cool! What was your parsha? What was the reaction?
When our daughter became bat mitzvah, her parsha was the one from Leviticus with the lying with men/abomination thing. She talked about the evil of homophobia and how to re-interpret the language. Every single person in the place paid attention.
I understand what you’re saying, Mischief, and while I think it’s fine to place some importance on announcing the engagement, what I find problematic is the very gendered aspect of the engagement “process.”
It seems an engagement is not legitimized unless the man has bought the woman a ring and asked her to marry him. Many people do not consider a couple engaged unless that has happened.
@Mischief: Everyone hates getting sections from Leviticus for their bar/bat mitzvahs. My cousin had the one about how to diagnose leoprosy. I’m glad your daughter was able to get some good stuff out of that passage!
Mine was Bamidbar/Numbers 27:3, the story of the daughters of Zelophehad, who challenge a tradition that gives their inheiritance to a male relative. Moses puts the question to God whether it’s a tradition that deserves changing and God apparently agreed that it did. A great example of how God commands us to change our traditions when they cause injustice to a select group, like women. My cool feminist rabbi said that it was too good to be coincidence that I got that parsha.
@SarahMC: Yeah, that’s the part where I get the icks–the notion that a man buys something of value and offers it to the woman in order to seal the deal, and only then is it done. If a woman were to do that to a man, people would be very uncomfortable with it, which I think goes to show how entrenched the sexism of the whole “proposal” thing is.
Thank you so much for this post; it couldn’t be more timely. I’ve been with my guy for almost 5 years. Marriage is not an if, just a when. We’ve talked about it a lot and we both know we are committed to spending our lives together. We may get hitched at the end of the year, or it may take a little longer depending on our ability to work out a few other life matters first. Thing is, I have zero desire to engage (hehe) in the rituals that marriage normally involves. I don’t want or need a formal proposal. I don’t care much for jewelry, so a ring is very low on my priority list. If we had gobs of money to burn maybe we’d go that route, but we don’t so in my mind it would be a shame to spend so much on something I don’t really care about. We’re saving, instead, to buy ourselves an engagement painting. It’s something we can both enjoy in the home we’ve created together, and the one we plan on getting depicts a scene that reflects a very particular adventure he and I went through. Finally, sorry mom, but I am dead serious that I don’t want a wedding (an entire day of being the center of attention is not my dream, it’s my nightmare).
I definitely find that others take us less seriously because we’re eschewing the normal route. But the weirdest thing is, I sometimes feel like I take us less seriously because of it (like even though marriage is a given, I still call him my boyfriend instead of my fiance because I’m not sporting a ring…a ring that I don’t even want!) I guess I didn’t realize how ingrained in me the standard rituals are, and it kinda pisses me off at myself!
@BeckyS: sweet! Clearly bashert.
@Tallgirl: What a lovely, powerful idea! Good for you. And if you don’t want a wedding and a ring, the hell with them. I would encourage you to do something with your family and friends to celebrate your formal change of status. You and your bf/fiance will have changed your community by changing your social status, and what could be more worth celebrating than the creation of a new family?
Wainaminit…
Just as most people sexually go from holding hands and kissing to touching and so forth, couples go from meeting, to casually dating or hooking up or whatever, to dating exclusively, often living together, etc.
Really? Is this really how it works? All blase and whateva and shit?
Fuck. me.
I hate this system. I’ve never been down with the casual sex thing. It’s not my style. Fuck it, I’m a prude. Let’s go on a bunch of dates, let me make sure you’re not a sociopath, then maybe I’ll feel comfortable sleeping with you. If I feel I can trust you, I’ll be down for the bonin’ 24/7. But can we get to know each other before we get down? Sheesh!
Anyway…
ceejee, maybe I just expressed myself poorly, but I wrote what I wrote to include multiple preferences/experiences. As in SOME people date casually (w/ or w/o sex, which I didn’t mention in this context, ’cause I don’t care who/what/if you bonk), SOME do the hook-up thing, whatever works for you. Some do other things. Or both things. In any case, those things usually come after meeting, but before dating exclusively. I’m not prescribing anything.
Mischief, while I agree about the importance of public ritual, I share with PhD the concerns over this particular one. In my mind, the change in social status really takes place at the wedding: that’s the public event that both celebrates and effectuates the union. An engagement, by contrast, is a (public) promise to *later marry.* Finding a marriage-partner is certainly wonderful, something to celebrate, but we usually celebrate happenings once, not once as promise and a second time as fact. So why celebrate both engagement and marriage?
Especially since we don’t, conventionally, honor things like signing a lease together / buying a house together / relocating or changing career for the sake of the other … all significant actions that change the nature of the relationship, and those of friends/family/etc. What explains or justifies the difference?
I think it’s easy enough to explain it, and your (and the other commenter’s) remark about consideration / contracts captures it: marriage had certain functions within upper & middle class anglophone society, and it was often desirable to create the social tie long in advance of the sexual union. In addition, once you introduce any lengthy delay b/w promise and performance, but have a system where only married sex is legitimate, engaged sex presents a bit of a problem, one ameliorated by public recognition of the engagement + expensive ring, etc.
But these sociocultural explanations don’t justify the practice now; they rather taint it. I’m not precisely a follower of Ronald Dworkin on legal philosophy, but I think his view of social practice has merit: an interpretation of a tradition has to not merely fit into its history but also *justify* its continuation.
Which I think highlights what’s problematic about the cases PhDork & other commenters are talking about: here, adherence to past practice is so at odds with any sensible justification of publicly celebrating promise-to-marry that it casts the whole idea into disrepute.
(I think Tallgirls-in-heels idea of an engagement painting, by contrast, is the sort of thing that could well fit into a modified tradition…)
Finally (sorry, putting off work!), I agree with Mischief that a couple’s relationship involves others around them, and is thus sometimes a fit thing for public ceremony. BUT, there are many different sorts of valuable relationships. And social acknowledgement of some rather than others typically has less to do with easing interpersonal navigation than the dominance of certain forms of living.
I recently got engaged, but my fiance never “popped the question,” and I don’t have an engagement ring. It was weird because after we told our families that we were getting married not a small amount of people asked if we were “really engaged.” It made me think, I just told you we’re getting married, isn’t that what being engaged means?
However, I can see the appeal to some women of a big proposal because it makes her fiance to do something special and romantic for her (unless he really does feel forced into it), and that doesn’t always happen enough for us.