Don't be afraid to get yours. Via Tracy O @ Flickr.
Last week in the thread for my Best Boss Ever post commenter Plum-Pie noted that she and her sister had been discussing the issue of women in the workplace, and: “Basically, we concluded, that as women are socialised to be risk averse and ‘grateful’ (blech!) and not to ask for things unless they are 100% sure they deserve them.” I had actually been working on this post when she made that comment, but it was great confirmation of what I’d been trying to say (thanks, Plum-Pie!)
I work in a business where two people can have the same title but considerable spread between their salaries (say, $60,000 vs. $100,000). Some of the spread has to do with experience, but much of it has to do with moving around. If you change companies every four years or so, you’ll get around a 30% raise each time, which all piles up quite nicely. If, however, you remain loyal to a company, as I did, you’re likely to get small incremental raises–5-8%–over the years, which simply don’t add up to a big payoff.
This was the case at my last job, where I started out as a 21 year old assistant. Eight years later I’d been promoted several times and had done several deals that brought my employers a LOT of money, enough that I was given a special “Employee Excellence” Award with the president of the company toasting me in a prepared speech.
Problem was, all that excellence wasn’t doing jack shit for my bank account.
I should point out here that I work in a female-dominated business, and both the president of the company and my direct boss were women. So were most of my colleagues. This wasn’t a case of out-and-out gender pay disparity. But gender definitely played into it.
You see, as Plum-Pie and her sister rightly noted, women are taught to be modest and risk-averse. We’re not supposed to toot our own horns or stride boldly into the boss’s office and demand a raise, even if we earned it. Instead, we’re supposed to be grateful for what we get, and not to overreach. So if the boss treats us well–as my bosses did–we think we should be pleased about it, even if we’re not making good money. Men would see the glass as half empty: Hey, I like this place but they’re not paying me what I’m worth! Women see it as half full: I’m not making as much as I could, but it’s okay because I like working here.
That was me, for a long time. But eventually, I started waking up to the fact that I was leaving money on the table, and if my salary didn’t go up, I’d be leaving money on the table for the rest of my life.
You see, every salary you get is based on the one before. If you have a dismal salary history–like I did–it could take you years, if not decades, to catch up. I eventually realized that I could be losing hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of my career if I stayed at the company that was underpaying me. That missing money could be a lost house, a lost college education for my children, or lost retirement funds.
That knowledge was ultimately what shook me out of my complacency. I had to change things–I needed to get paid what I was worth, or I might establish a precedent that would haunt me for the rest of my life.
I started by putting together a P&L of all the projects I’d worked on, showing how much money they’d made. I did some research in industry publications and on-line (I recommend glassdoor.com for this) and found out what the typical base pay for my position was. I requested a promotion and a raise that would bring me in line with both the base salary I should have been earning, and with what my colleagues were earning (most of them had many more years experience than I did, so I requested a little less based on that). I did a write-up of all this and gave it to my boss at my next evaluation. I was polite and respectful, but firm. This needed to happen, I told them. It was a reasonable request, based entirely on research and solid numbers.
So now I’m going to talk about those numbers. Although I don’t use my real name on this website, I am not hiding behind my anonymity in this case. Believe me, I would talk about my salary in public if we were sitting in a room together because I believe very strongly that the reluctance to discuss money is a big part of the reason women get screwed in the workplace. Women are strongly discouraged from thinking of their work in terms of cold, hard cash. Talking about money is tacky, we’re told, and besides, there are all sorts of intangibles–like quality of life, and getting along with your managers and colleagues–that matter more. I believe those things are important, of course, and they do factor into any decision I make about my job.
But the truth is that numbers matter. They certainly matter to your employer. I guarantee your bosses know exactly what you make and what your work is worth, even if you don’t discuss it. The first step to not getting screwed is to know what your skills are worth on the open market. To do that, you have to reduce the value of your work to a dollar figure. If this makes you uncomfortable, get over it. This is your financial security we’re talking about.
For the sake of illustration–and because I ain’t ’shamed to talk about money–here is an example. It’s my own salary history:
My starting salary was $20,000, a flat rate paid to all entry-level employees at my company. (I have a B.A. from a top-tier public university and professional certification from an Ivy League school.)
At the end of four years, having been promoted twice, I was making $35,000. The average industry salary for someone with my responsibilities was a little higher– about $38,000-40,000. Already, I was falling behind.
At the end of eight years, having been promoted once more, and having made the company significant profits by bringing in as much business as someone at the senior level (a promotion away). I was only making $50,000. The mean pay for my job title started at $55,000, according to industry publications, but I’d been in the job for three years already. I should have been making at least $60,000. I was earning about 20% less than I should have.
Also: had the company hired someone from outside with a track record like mine, they would have had to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $70,000-$80,000.
Once I crunched the numbers, I realized I needed to make at least $70,000 a year to bring my salary in line with the market value of my work.
Even my colleagues who’d brought in less money were making 20-30% more than me, mainly because they had been hired from outside. I, on the other hand, was young, home-grown, and hadn’t had a big jump in salary by switching companies. I’d paid what I call the Loyalty Penalty.
Why did I pay it? Because I was ignorant of my real value to the company, and had gotten complacent because liked my job (particularly working for the best female boss ever). My employers certainly took advantage of both things, giving me promotions without raises, or piddly single-digit raises. The company saved money by underpaying me, and they thought it was a win-win for them. For years, I proved them right.
My bid for a promotion and a raise was favorably received, and I was told that I would get a 15% raise, for starters, and a promotion that would go into effect in the next fiscal quarter. But when that quarter rolled around, I noticed that my paycheck didn’t change. There was no discussion of a forthcoming promotion. There was nothing. Despite the promises, the appointed time rolled around and…crickets. That same month, my excellent boss went on maternity leave, which meant that if this issue was going to be tackled, it wouldn’t be tackled for at least three months, at which point I would probably be put off until the following quarter–six months away. I was facing another half a year of being underpaid.
I was livid about the broken promises. But in reality, my employers were doing me a favor, because anger is a great motivator, and it gave me the kick in the ass I needed. I called around and found out who was hiring. I cold-called the head of a rival company and met him for breakfast three days later. That was a Monday. I met his deputy on Tuesday. I was up front with both of them: I wanted $70,000 a year, and if they offered it to me, I would accept it and not try to negotiate a better deal with my current employer (which is typical in my industry–people often try to get employers into bidding wars, which can be very risky). On Wednesday they offered me a job with a promotion and the $70,000 a year I wanted. I accepted immediately.
I gave notice to my boss’s boss, a guy I had known for eight years and never particularly liked, and who I suspected was part of why I had been stymied in getting the promised raise. I simply announced, “I’ve been offered a job elsewhere and I’ve accepted. I can give you three weeks’ notice.”
He looked stunned, as though it had never occurred to him that someone who’d been at one place for eight years and been underpaid for most of them might actually look for another job.
“You don’t want a counter-offer?” he asked.
“No.” I told him, “I was promised a raise and a promotion this quarter and I didn’t get it, so I found a job with better pay.”
About an hour later I was called into the office of the Boss Lady, the head of our entire division. I’d always gotten along well with her, and she was also the ultimate numbers person, so she undoubtedly knew why I was leaving. The moment I sat down, she leaned forward, looked me in the eye and said, “Just tell me it’s not about the money.”
I was stunned. I wanted to yell “Of course it’s about the money, you moron!”
But I was determined to get out of there without burning bridges–it’s a small world. She’d just told me what she wanted to hear, so I let her hear it.
“No, it’s about the opportunity,” I answered. Which was true–it was about the opportunity to finally make the money I deserved. I then made some noises about how I’d had a good eight years, and thanks for all the support, but I needed to move on.
I don’t think she believed it, but I got out of there in one piece and that was all that mattered.
I’ve been at my new job for four years. I now make $93,000 a year. I’m finally exactly where I should be on the pay scale, and I’m very happy with my boss and working environment too.
My point here, fellow harpies, is that it’s very easy to look at that glass half full and let yourself be underpaid. It’s much easier to say “Well, at least I have a job…” or “It’s not much money, but I like it…” The Patriarchy has conditioned women not to talk about money or deliver ultimatums, or to advocate loudly for ourselves (and, if absolutely necessary, be a bitch when you aren’t getting what you deserve). The pressure can be so subtle that you don’t notice it but it’s persistant, and it takes effort to shake off that conditioning. But if this is happening to you, please, please go for yours. No one else will do it for you, and your future as well as your present depends on it.
Good on you, Becky! I’m glad you stood up for yourself and got what you deserved. This is a good message for all of us, whether as a kick start or a reminder to not be afraid to be assertive or when necessary, a bitch. This is a great series, especially for me at this point in my life when I really only started on my own about a year and a half ago. It’s great and inspiring to see a strong woman getting her some (besides my mama! She always seemed like an anomaly to me growing up in our Stepford neighborhood of French manicures in lieu of jobs).
I’m impressed. I stayed in an underpaid job because of a Best Boss Ever (though he was a man). He’d gotten me the biggest raises he could, but they were way less than I was worth and we both knew it. We were a two-person department, so I felt especially like I would be abandoning him if I left. I quit when I got pregnant, using it as an excuse to leave without having to reject this boss who I adored.
Imagine my shock when he promptly gave notice too. I’d been staying for him and he’d been staying for me. He’s now making $30,000 more and I’m pursuing my dream business. But we should have both done it three years earlier.
As someone just starting out, that is great to read. One of my biggest faults is being too deferential to authority, and I worry that I won’t be particularly good at advocating for myself in my career, but reading things like that helps me think that with practice and determination, it can be learned.
Feminism and being raised a feminist can be a differential here, actually. I’m only a year out of college, and I’ve negotiated my salary upwards in a couple of different situations. My boyfriend, however, has been underpaid and mistreated in a couple of different work situations, and yet refuses to negotiate upward or ask for more.
This is an individual situation, obviously, and I think that it’s pretty rare. But I think that going to a women’s college and being a lifelong feminist definitely put me at an advantage in this arena.
THANK YOU! I appreciate this more than I can tell. I’m just trying to get a mentor program started here at my company – BECAUSE of things like that. That is a class that should be taught in college – raises, what to expect, when to expect them and how to get them.
Since I’ve been with my company for 3 (4th year starts in December), I’ve had two positions and gotten standard raises and position pay bumps along – but you’re right – always be aware of what it would cost them to hire in someone from the outside. Know you worth and be prepared to back it up.
I love the fact that you gave them the opportunity and then when they didn’t deliver – you moved on. Fantastic.
Thank you! I definitely think that we need to be more open about $$ and what we earn and how we spend it – only way to learn.
I needed to read this this morning. Thanks.
That post was made of pure awesome, and I really appreciate it. I’m in a difficult place myself and trying to determine what my next step is.
I’ve maxed out the salary I can expect with my experience and education. In order to make any more than I am now, I would HAVE to go back to school. But when I’m barely making enough to live on, I have no idea how to budget for more education. Picking up a second (and maybe third) job wouldn’t really work because then I’d be spending more on childcare and would have no hours left in my day to crack a text book.
thank you for always shouting BE A BITCH!
long ago, in 1989, I quit my first job. I was shocked when my boss said, “Can I make a counter offer?”
HELL NO DUDE! ARE YOU SAYING THERE WAS MONEY ON THE TABLE ALL ALONG?!?!
OK no, I didn’t say that. All I said was, no.
@AmandaS I would say that you need to find some pro-bono or volunteer project in your field. This way, you can squeeze it in on your schedule. If it doesn’t get done 100%, well, that’s the breaks. Make sure it’s a project where you can cultivate contacts on the chance that you can leverage yourself to better pay w/o a significant commitment to education.
One day maybe we’ll discuss the ways education past a certain level is unnecessary.
I can confirm the outside hire thing from the other side – I started a new job this year and found out a few months ago what the person I replaced had been making. We have the same level of education, but she had been promoted internally while I was hired from outside and I make significantly more money than she did for the exact same job.
I needed someone to tell me this when I was fresh out of college. I lived in NYC at the time and started work at a well known magazine. They started me at 30,000 a year and about 6 months later, my friend got the same job at a rival magazine for 37,000 a year. Two years later she could afford her own apartment and I was in credit card debt. I quit, moved to another city, and this time NEGOTIATED. I was horribly uncomfortable with it, but it paid off, and now I am just where I should be.
It seems though that the majority of the women who know to do this, only know from experience. Thanks for writing to let more women know so they don’t have to go through it!
Thanks so much, y’all. Glad you liked this. I absolutely agree with betterfishtofry that I wish someone had told me this when I was just starting out. I might have had a bigger chunk of change in my bank account–and my 401k.
Also, rodriguez is right on about HELL NO! ARE YOU TELLING ME THERE WAS MONEY ON THE TABLE ALL ALONG? As soon as I had another offer, they were totally willing to pay me what I was worth. But my response was exactly the same as hers (although I didn’t quite come out with it like that–although I wanted to!).
Good stuff, SarahMC! Thanks for being willing to talk numbers.
I do have a question tho- how does this kind of salary negotiating apply to the non-profit world?
Non-profits typically have less mobility, lower % annual increases and it’s pretty much accepted that you will get paid less for working at a non-profit (v. the ‘corporate word’- something I call the Good Samaritan Penalty).
I like my job, but don’t want to get financially screwed in the long run for choosing to pursue a career that is meaningful to me.
“tell me it’s not about the money”?? I don’t understand that – why do people think that women don’t live on money like other humans?
I really don’t know where boss lady was coming from with that one.
Go, BeckySharper! That’s awesome! I’m still in university, but I sure hope I can have the guts to do that if I find myself in a similar situation in my professional life.
@madaha: The Boss Lady was signalling me that she would be willing to pay more to keep me. She said later in the conversation that if it was about the money, they’d match the offer. But that was a day late and a dollar short; I had given them fair warning months earlier that I wanted–and desserved–a raise. They didn’t give it to me, thus forcing me to get another offer. So overnight I went from being worth $50k to being worth $70k in their eyes. Not because I was a better, smarter, more capable employee, but because the market rate for my work had just gone up.
@vickimae: Yep, I hear you on the Good Samaritan Penalty. Obvs, it’s different in the non-profit world. There’s just less money for raises, and even more pressure not to ask for them because you’d feel guilty for taking away money that could be going to the non-profit’s cause.
But even non-profits have budgets for personnel, and they’re very cognizant of how much they can afford to pay per position (sometimes more so than in the corporate world, where budgets are less tight). You should always ask yourself–if they had to bring in someone to replace me, what would they have to pay? Because even in the non-profit world, experience counts, and as you gain experience, your work becomes more valuable. They know it, and you know it.
If it turns out that you’ve really maxed out what you can make in that position, then you have to think about whether it’s financially a good idea for you to stay in that job, or even in the non-profit sector.
Thank you very much for this BeckySharper. I would have benefited from hearing something like this a few years ago. At that time, and I think this is another point to support your argument, I was looking for a first job in my field. I was desperate for a job and accepted an offer with a company I’m quite happy with, without negotiating salary. Several of my other female colleagues did the same thing. One of my male colleagues negotiated and got $5k more. This is small and nonrandom sample but it bears the point that this accumulation starts from the get go. Given the increases I’ve had since I would be making a bit more with even a starting salary $5k higher.
WORD on all of this. I LOVED my first job out of college – stayed there over 6 years (being promoted along the way, but with pretty minor raises – started at 35K the first year, and making 66 by the time I left) – but I had to LEAVE that company in order to get a significant bump up.
I think it’s mostly about being hired somewhere in a lower position (in my case, coordinator) and then, no matter what you do or how far up the ladder you travel, there are always people at the company who remember you as the coordinator. So they keep treating you as such, financially speaking.
I got a 15K bump in salary by moving to another company (for a dream job, no less!) – not because my work is vastly different (it’s not, and it’s much more fun) but because my resume proved I was worth it, even if my former boss couldn’t see it.
@bb: You make a good point. Often, when you start out somewhere very young, as you and I did, you’re always the baby of the family. That was definitely the case where I worked, and while there was a lot of goodwill and affection towards the baby of the family, I was ultimately less interested in being patted on the head and more interested in getting PAID. Goodwill is wonderful, but it didn’t pay my mortgage.
Thinking over my HELL NO response to a counter offer (20 years too late) I realize that’s a clear mistake.
Employer: Can I make you a counter-offer?
Harpy: Please do.
Employer: $XXX
Harpy to Future Employer: I have submitted my resignation to Old Co., but of course they have made me a counter offer. Please match $XXX.
Vickimae, I have only ever worked for non-profit organisations, which in the UK often have fixed hiring salaries and there are more willing, and often already wealthy, people than there are jobs.
I feel that political motivation combined with social conditioning, are a double-burden for the finances of women working in the non-profit field. We’re not motivated by money and there isn’t a lot of money on offer, so why not resign yourself to poverty? Because men don’t do this. They are in the minority in the sector (again, in the UK) but they tend to be in more senior roles and therefore have much higher salaries, on average.
I try to research the employer as far as possible in terms of ’soft’ benefits, like office culture, as well as financial ones. No point working somewhere where they claim to offer extra holiday (instead of money!) for overtime, but in reality, you’re pressured into not claiming it.
Also, as Becky says, your skills have a value, (even if it’s a fraction of their commercial sector value) and you know when you’re not receiving recognition for them. The last time I was in that situation, my manager said ‘Is there anything we could do to make you stay?’ and I knew she was giving me the option of asking for more money, but I was being treated like crap by people in partner organisations and receiving no support from her on this (and I knew,from how she handled her own career she wouldn’t change), so I left. You can always negotiate for some other benefit, if there really isn’t any money.
Finally, make sure you are very, very good at financial planning.
@rodriguez: I would proceed with caution in that case. If the Future Employer is lowballing you a bit, a counteroffer can correct that, for example: if you have an offer of $70k and you think you can get your current employer to match it–you might be able to get the future employer to throw in another 10%.
That’s where it really pays to be well-educated about the value of your work. If you know that the going rate is usually $80k, then you should definitely try to negotiate the Future Employer into giving you that, including by playing the counteroffer game.
In my case, I knew that $70k was a solid offer and I was unlikely to get more. Plus, I wasn’t going to issue an ultimatum–pay me more or I stay with my current employer–that I had no intention of living up to. That’s the thing about ultimatums when you negotiate–you should never say you’re going to walk away unless you’re actually going to do it.
I also engendered a LOT of goodwill with my Future Employer by not trying to dicker over a fair offer. This paid off the following year, when another person quit, leaving an extra lump of cash in the budget. Guess who got an unsolicited $20k raise?
@Becky
Of course all of what you say about negotiating is correct. My point is that it’s dumb to do as I did, when asked if I would listen to a counter offer. The right thing to do is listen to the counter offer, and then proceed depending on all the things you said.
Researching pay is easier now that we have the internet. For me to say no in 1989 was doubly stupid because I passed up a chance to get a clearer picture of the market.
In other words, knowledge is power.
I love this! Good for you, Becky!
I think one of the key things in negotiating a raise is understanding your value to the company. Not just in terms of what value you add to the company (hopefully there is an element of that as well though) but also what it would cost to replace you. Because the cost to replace is the real (in my opinion) determiner of monetary worth to a company. And when you’re considering cost to replace you must consider, not just salary, but also the secondary costs associated with new hires; how much time is it going to take the company to get a replacement up to speed?
Once you know your value, walk in with a number. “This is what I want, and this is why I deserve it.” Aim high, negotiate to happy!
@ BeckySharper- thanks for the feedback (also, for mis-naming you in my shout-out; oops!)
@Plum-pie: good points about ’soft’ benefits (love that paid time off and holiday pay!) and skill value. I’m fortunate that my skill set IS pretty valuable, essential even (grant-writing), but its one that has a wildly variable value. I’m already in the top 10 highest paid employees in my org, and I’m afraid that if I try to switch agencies, it’ll be a step down…maybe the corporate world is calling…but I really do need to do a bit more research before I make any moves.
Rodriguez suggested: “I would say that you need to find some pro-bono or volunteer project in your field. This way, you can squeeze it in on your schedule.”
Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to offer some suggestions when I said I had maxed out the salary I can expect with my current education. And also, thank you for inadvertently making me have a moment of reflection.
See, my first thought was, “I keep forgetting that I’m kinda out-classed here, surrounded by people with fields, and careers, and degrees.” What I have are skills, jobs, and a high school diploma. I spent five years in college before getting burnt out, and have done pretty well answering phones and filing. But this made me think, hey, why do I think I have to have a college degree in order to have a “field”?
I’m surrounded by society telling me that I HAVE to get a college degree to be worth any more money, and I’ve accepted this as a fact without really thinking about it. Whether or not this is true, I think I need to explore why I’ve been so conditioned to accept that costly education is the only way I can make more money.
Also I meant to add:
“Counter offer” translates to “We knew we were paying you less than you were worth. Oops! We got caught taking advantage of you!”
@amanda You made my day, girl.
I think education is IS overrated. You can educate yourself better, and more completely than any school can. The trick is getting the world to go along with it! But first, convince yourself. Which you have.
@Amanda – I struggle with the same thing. I’ve bounced around college so many times I have trouble keeping track. I’d like to graduate. I’d like to go to grad school…but those are personal goals.
I get really discouraged when I peruse the classifieds and see, “College degree required” for jobs that I KNOW I could do. I worry that when I send in my resume it automatically gets tossed because that criteria isn’t met. I can get a little indignant about that sometimes.
Thanks for this, Becky. I made $55,000 at my last firm (I was one of two lawyers), and that was after two years there. I got no raise at the end of my second year, and as it happened, although I wasn’t actively looking, I applied for one job with a bigger firm in a different practice area, and I got it. It irked me that a dude with no experience was given my old job at my same salary, but I never came right out and asked for a raise, I just dropped hints about it being my two-year anniversary and time for a review.
It’s not that I would have stayed if they’d given me more money, but that was a HUGE part of it. Fully a third of my salary went to student loans; I was NOT taking home much cash, especially compared to other young lawyers. I made a third of what my friends in big firms in big markets made. My goal in moving was to decrease that disparity (and to not practice Workers Comp defense anymore, which can be soul crushing and super boring).
On the other hand, at my new job, I am a “contract” attorney for the first two months, only paid hourly for what I bill and not receiving benefits. (It’s been a giant investment, at the end of the day). I find out soon whether I get an offer, and I think I will because they need a warm body, but I’m concerned about negotiating salary. I don’t know whether my work has been that great – some of it has, but I’ve made some errors, too. I’ve really fucked up on a case I have with one of the name partners. When I interviewed I asked for $80,000 to $90,000, still pretty low in Portland at a small/mid-size firm for a 2006 graduate (of a top-20 school, but that doesn’t matter much here), but as that one name partner has made clear, I’m essentially completely inexperienced as far as the practice areas dealt with in this firm. I’m afraid that because I haven’t turned out to make the kinds of contributions a third-year associate would be expected to make, their offer will be low and I’ll have to take it anyway, because who the fuck is hiring lawyers these days?
A friend of mine has been paying that Loyalty Penalty for a couple years now (she’s in advertising), and although she’s the most assertive person I know, male or female, and she’s asked for (and received) some raises, she knows people who’ve left her company and come back and who are now making a good deal more than her in similar positions. And she’s always ALWAYS getting head-hunted and could have her pick of advertising jobs both in house (she got a call from Apple a couple months ago) or at agencies. She doesn’t want to leave but she wants to get a salary commensurate with what she provides to the company, which, arguably, is MORE than what her associates provide simply because of the relationships she has. And her bosses have definitely pulled the “we’ll reevaluate in three months” gambit, for naught. On the other hand, she’s in Sydney for business at the moment, so I guess her fringe benefits are pretty sweet…
These kinds of decisions are always so fraught with peril, it seems, and the self-doubt inherent in making them is really insidious. The patriarchy and it’s salary machinations can fuck itself.
This thread making me wanna quit this academic thing and go sell out to The Man so I can get paid. I’ve never ever in my entire life made more than $30K a year. Most years, not even 25. Y’all are some rich mammajammas.
@PhDork: Ugh, academia SUCKS SO HARD when it comes to salaries. It’s like the commitment you make to learning is somehow inversely proportional to your paycheck. So wrong!
Pretty much, Becky. This year, my teaching job is paying me 35-40% of what I’m expecting in the admin position, and will probably take up more hours per week. Guess which job doesn’t require anything beyond an Associate’s?
In other jobby news, if anyone in the NYC area would be interested in an executive assistant position (and has some experience) related to feminist interests, I just got word of an opening at the Astraea Lesbian Foundation for Justice. Email me if you want the job description.
To echo what others have said: knowledge is power. Research is your friend. At my old firm, I got a raise that I thought was too low given my reviews and what the firm’s policy on raises had lead me to expect. I took the time to prepare a factually-based argument that compared my reviews to the criteria set forth in the policy, and presented it to the powers that be. They couldn’t explain the disparity between what I’d gotten and what the policy indicated I should have gotten. In the end, they either had to give me a bigger raise, or formally acknowledge that the firm had put out a policy that it did not actually apply. I got a bigger raise. So did several of my friends that I shared my story with.
So, know your company’s policies, know the value of your work to your company, and know your market value. Also, in this economy, know how healthy the market is for your skills and experience. It may be true that being hired from the outside by a new company will boost your salary, and this can be useful leverage if you choose to negotiate with your current employer. But the degree of leverage obviously decreases if everyone knows that employers in your field just aren’t hiring right now. That doesn’t mean that you should just shut up and be grateful that you have a job; you can still push for being paid appropriately, and keep your eye out for new opportunities. Just be smart about it
Sorry for the double post, but regarding the relationship between women asking for raises and feeling deserving of them, it occurs to me how far this concept can stretch. When I was contemplating asking for a bigger raise, my hesitation stemmed not from any doubt that I deserved more within the context of my field and my firm’s policy. Rather, I felt like an asshole for asking for more money because I worked in a profession that is (IMO) already overpaid. In my area, after the last round of salary wars I was aware of, kids were coming out of law school into first-year positions that paid as much as $165,000 at some firms.* I didn’t work at one of the behemoths, but I was still making a lot of money. I had friends who were struggling to stay afloat through residencies and post-docs. My bf is in academia. I knew people busting their asses in the non-profit sector for very little money. Sure I worked really hard, but so did they. I really struggled with the idea that I could somehow feel shafted under those circumstances. I felt like one of the Friends asking for a ridiculous sum per episode because that’s what the market would support.
*This was 2006-early 2007, I think. I’m pretty out of the loop on that stuff now.
There’s a lesson here for the other side of the desk, too: if you pay people based purely on what you can get away with, you discourage firm-specific knowledge and loyalty, and encourage employees to be continually on the lookout for outside offers. So when deciding upon compensation, resist the temptation to free-ride off of your employees’ better natures; it’s not just the right thing to do, it’s better for morale and for the quality of personnel you end up with.
(Says the academic who’s never held a real job. But I’ve read about them!)
This is really helpful for me to read — I’m going into my last year of undergrad and am studying to enter a field that I know is relatively highly paid. I’m good at what I do, and reading things like this really does help give me confidence that if I need to negotiate, I will, and hard.
Thanks, Becky et al! I feel like this is the sort of knowledge that normally gets passed on in old boys’ clubs and the fact that it’s being passed on to young women through feminist websites is amazingly awesome.
Before I read the comments, I have to say that you are fucking awesome! I am going to save this post on my computer for future reference. And it is totally true that “talking about money is tacky” is just a ploy to keep us all in the dark.
I recently got a promotion and a raise, to give me the title and salary for the work I’d been doing for a year. My (male) partner kept urging me to talk to my boss about it, but I kept putting it off. I said, “You know, no one’s getting a raise this year due to budget.” Which is true, but they have been giving pay increases with promotions. In the end they gave it to me anyway, and I’m happy to be making more, but I feel like a sucker for not having spoken up before. It’s been a mixed experience.
Hey
I’m Plum Pie’s sister, hence the moniker. I’ve been really lucky and really unlucky. I had an awful first boss (male) and was harassed out of my workplace by a racist misogynist. It was a job I’d only taken because in spite of being ambitious and intelligent I couldn’t envisage myself in any of the entry level roles that would have actually led me somewhere so I took a ’safe’ admin job where I knew I had the skills and kidded myself it would lead somewhere. It did, mental breakdown.
I was grateful for the job which I’d really needed when I applied for it and more grateful for any additional responsibility that relieved the tedium of the work, as such they got me doing lots of managerial stuff for a secretarial salary while I had to be deferential to the bozos in charge. What’s more I was told I wasn’t senior enough to attend any of the meetings at which the information was given that I needed to complete the tasks they were relying on me to do. Ugh! Eventually after months of this plus various sorts of nasty bullying I left.
After a season or two in temp-hell I was lucky enough to have a wonderful (again male) boss who treated me with respect, mentored me and got me a foot in the door doing something that wasn’t admin.
Women of the world, DON’T DO ADMIN! It’s a trap. Please! I know you can do it, I know it’s easy, I know it’s socially acceptable and pays the bills but please take a chance and specialise! If you must take a role with admin tasks, have it be a project assistant on a specific project where you also do work towards the project. Have admin be a small part of the role.
Don’t look for an admin role, look for a role doing something that you want to do and if you haven’t got all the skills yet but can use your admin ability as a bridge do that. Put the admin down, step away from the admin. It labels you and keeps you poor, de-skilled and bored.
After one good boss I knew what to look for and I’ve been really careful to do so. I’ve seen it in men and women and feel especially privileged to have worked for one wonderful woman at my last organisation who has become my friend.
This wonderful woman said this to me which has really stuck “Women too often move sideways instead of upwards when they change jobs. They go for what they know they can do. They’re not willing enough to put out a punt application and see if they get it.”
We all need to give it more of a go sometimes. After all you never know.
QT
PS. I wholeheartedly agree about researching salaries, jobs etc. ‘Getting to Yes’ by Fisher, Ury and Patton is an excellent and well known book on negotiation which many women would benefit by. The technique they talk about is effective, assertive and fair and doesn’t have many of the qualities of traditional negotiation that puts many women off (Game playing, grandstanding, doing down the other party etc). We have to negotiate so much in life it pays to learn how to do it well.
Quince, that’s really valuable advice. My first job was basically an admin job but it was in the field I wanted to be in, and once I got through all the clerical stuff, it offered an apprenticeship of sorts. So yeah, I second your advice to take a job in the field you want to be in instead of going for the safe-ish job that ultimately doesn’t offer much down the road. Or, at least, if you do take that kind admin job–for financial reasons, maybe–don’t get trapped there. Have a 1-2 year plan to get out of it and into a career-track job in a field you like.
I also think that you’re dead on about how women are just not taught to reach and aspire to the big career. A friend once posted a sticky on her bulletin board at work that said:
“If you don’t make plans for yourself, someone else will make them for you. And guess what they have planned for you? NOT MUCH.”
It’s so true.
Also, “Getting To Yes” is an excellent recommendation. It was required reading in the “negotiating boot camp” my employer sent me to a couple years back.
To sumarise my over-long previous post: admin is only ok if it directly leads to you getting other skills and experience that will enable you to go where you want to be. It should never be the main focus of your work unless you *genuinely* want to be a secretary.
Just saw this link on a friend’s blog, so I’m late to the game.
As a middle-manager, one lesson that had to be taught to me by my boss is that if you have a 5% raise pool to work with, the junior team members should be getting 7-10% raises and the senior members should be getting 3-4%. Otherwise, compound interest will cause the senior’s salaries to take off and the junior folks will never catch up. It may be ok for folks who have worked for 4 years to get half the salary as those that have 8 years of experience. But the numbers should be getting closer together when the experience moves to 8 and 12 years, respectively, not getting farther apart.
The corollary is that once you’re at the high end of the pay scale, don’t bitch about getting smaller raises percentage-wise. Unless you really want to have to keep training new junior members. Cash-wise, you’re still going to be fine.