Comments on: If You Ain’t No Punk, Holler WE WANT PRE-NUP!

By: flackette

flackette — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:58:05 +0000

Late to the game here, but a family crisis just highlighted to me the importance of smart financial planning in marriage. My parents had about $5 to their names when they got married, so a pre-nup wouldn’t be something they ever thought about. They settled into a very traditional pattern wherein my dad dealt with the bills and was the chief breadwinner. He received and sorted the mail, took out the bills, gave my mom her magazines and assured her that everything was taken care of. Flash forward 36 years, and he has somehow lost their life savings – and possibly their house. We don’t know if he has mental health issues that played into this series of events, or if it was just a series of terrible financial decisions, but the upshot is that on the eve of their 60th birthdays my parents have zero money left. They will receive a pension in my dad’s name (about half what he had been making before retirement), but since my mom gets only survivor benefits on that if anything happens to him she will lose another half of that. She has no retirement savings or pension in her own name, and if they lose the house she will have no appreciable assets that could be leveraged to provide for possible long-term care needs. She is freaking out because her supposedly super-stable spouse turned out to have done all this, and because she doesn’t even have a clue how much the electric bill usually runs or how to call to cancel a credit card.
Because of all this, when/if I marry, I will insist on knowing EVERYTHING about any financial dealings, down to the amount spent on groceries.

By: ceejeemcbeegee

ceejeemcbeegee — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 01:56:45 +0000

EVERYONE who gets married should have a pre-nup. Period.

It’s not about love or faith, it’s about asset (and debt) protection.

By: BeckySharper

BeckySharper — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:51:47 +0000

@Alyssa: It’s true that women generally are less well-off financially when marriages dissolve. Not surprisingly, that’s because men tend to earn more than women, and women take time out of the workforce to raise children (or never enter it at all, in some cases). SAHMs are dependent on their husbands, which puts them at risk of serious financial damage if they divorce (which is the core argument of Leslie Bennetts’s argument in “The Feminine Mistake.”) I’d actually advise a woman who planned to stay home to have a pre-nup or post-nup for that reason as well.

A pre-nup can actually be whatever the two parties want it to be. For example, it has been widely rumored that Catherine Zeta-Jones has one that in the event of a divorce entitles her to a set amount for every year that she and Michael Douglas are married, and if he cheats, he pays an additional monetary penalty. Not what I’d want, personally, but if both parties are willing to sign, it’s a deal.

By: Alyssa

Alyssa — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:26:36 +0000

@Becky:
I didn’t consider that a pre-nup can be used to protect the stay-at-home spouse. I wish that were more well known.
While I know a pre-nup doesn’t necessarily mean that a stay-at-home spouse remains powerless, I think it turns works out that way more often than not.
As I said earlier, I do see the value of a pre-nup, and I do believe they can be fair. Anyone who wants one should have one if both parties consent. But I also feel there should be judgement for people who do not want one either (I know you all weren’t being judgmental, but there is a lot of judgement out there). I also think that people who are signing one, should take into consideration that if one person does stay home, then he/she is entitled to compensation should the marriage dissolve. Maybe I’m wrong, but I have the impression that doesn’t happen that often.

By: BeckySharper

BeckySharper — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:10:27 +0000

@Alyssa: A pre-nup can also ensure that the person who stays at home is entitled to an agreed-upon amount should the marriage end. There are plenty of people–mostly women, obviously–who request one for just that purpose. In that case, it automatically compensates them for loss of income caused by staying home.

But yes, pre-nups mainly used to protect the assets of the higher-paid spouse. These days, increasingly, that spouse might be the wife.

By: Alyssa

Alyssa — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:36:37 +0000

I have some issues with the idea of a pre-nup.
Pre-nups are meant to protect the person who has the most money (or least debt), from having to share that money with the other party (or in more cynical terms “keep your money-grubbing hands off my money”).
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the most common reason that one partner makes significantly less than another is because they are staying home with the children. In that case, isn’t that person entitled to money that they aren’t technically earning?
I just don’t see how we can say we are trying to raise the status and value of “women’s work” when something like a pre-nup reduces people who stay at home with the children to money-grubbing people who don’t want to make an honest wage.
I do see the value of a pre-nup, but I see it as a way to ensure that the person not making a wage remains powerless unless it specifically stipulates that if one person stays at home with the kids/takes care of the house, that they are entitled to be compensated should the marriage dissolve.

By: BeckySharper

BeckySharper — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:07:41 +0000

@Katie: Divorce is an entirely “reasonable and acceptable outcome.” People should never be required–either legally or morally–to stay in a relationship that makes them miserable.

If you don’t ever want to get divorced, that’s your decision. But it’s ridiculously judgemental–and unkind–for you to make such sweeping generalizations about other people’s reasons for marrying or divorcing.

(My parents divorced when I was five. They both have very happy second marriages. I am 100% convinced that I had a MUCH better family life than if they had stayed together.)

By: Spark

Spark — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:52:26 +0000

And while you’re signing that pre-nup, put some money aside in a separate account that’s only in your name. Enough $ for a plane ticket and security deposit.

By: Katie

Katie — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:12:42 +0000

I won’t be signing a pre-nup, and it’s not because I have some idealized, rosy view of marriage. I survived two separate divorces from my parents. (They are married to each other for the third time now.) I know both how messy divorce can be and how difficult marriage can be, and so does my future spouse. I just don’t believe in divorce, as silly and naive as it may sound. Watching my parents go through not one, but TWO messy, expensive divorces, only to get back together a few years later, I’ve strangely come out with the perception that most marriages can survive pretty serious troubles, if you’re willing to put out the effort. (Crazy, I know.) My SO went through similar things with his parents.

We both know marriage is incredibly difficult. That there will be times when we will hate each other and will want to walk away. The truth is, if I honestly thought either of us didn’t have the ability to ride out the bad stuff and have things to fight for in the end, I wouldn’t get married at all. I’m not so committed to the idea of marriage that I’d do if I thought that divorce was an acceptable conclusion for the relationship I was in. I refuse to waste my time and money on something that patience and communication can almost always fix. I believe most people get divorced not because there’s any real reason to, but because they lack the willpower and courage to stick with it…or they just made really stupid choices to begin with. Divorce is easy. Having a marriage isn’t, and if you aren’t capable of making a permanent commitment to another human being, then maybe you should just cohabitate, set up some legal arrangements in the event you break up, and spare yourself the pain and expense of divorce.

I’m not really sure WHY anyone would get married at all if they thought that divorce was a reasonable or acceptable outcome. Have you ever lived through a divorce? It’s seriously one of the worst things I’ve ever been through. If you think a divorce might happen, just don’t get married. The end.

By: Quince Tart

Quince Tart — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:08:15 +0000

And we’re into one of my specialisms: Women and money. These people are worth knowing about for you American ladies: http://www.wife.org/

Actually as much of the info is universal it’s worth knowing about for the rest of us too.

One of the founders is a forensic accountant specialising in divorce who has some hair-raising stories and clever suggestions.

Their book is called A Man Is Not A Financial Plan. I haven’t read it but I love the title.