Do any of y’all get irritated at being called “Miss?”
I don’t mean on correspondence–these days pretty much everything comes addressed to “Ms. Sharper”, which is as it should be. I mean being called “Miss” by salespeople in stores, folks who approach you on the street, telemarketers, etc.
I don’t like “Miss.” Never have. It’s an outdated form of address that should only be used for little girls. If you’re an adult woman you should be called “Ma’am”, the way any adult man expects to be called “Mister.” I realize that according to the Patriarchy, I’m technically “Miss” because I’m not married. But even if that mattered–which it shouldn’t–the bus driver doesn’t know that, and neither does the salesman at Home Depot. And I’m sure the Verizon customer service rep I just talked to couldn’t tell my marital status when she said, “Look, Miss, I don’t know when the repairman can reconnect your phone.” Hell, she couldn’t even tell my age either.
Truth is, calling a grown woman “Miss” is a way of talking down to her. When I get called that, especially by older salespeople or the dudes at the corner bodega (“Psst! Hey, Miss!”), I feel like I’m being infantalized–which at least some of the time is exactly what’s intended.
I know some people default to “Miss” for everyone who doesn’t have gray hair and a cane, out of fear of offending a woman by implying that she’s–God forbid!–old. Some women probably prefer “Miss”, because, as we know, some women don’t want people to know how old they are and like being treated as though they’re still sweet young things in knee socks. But it’s ridiculous to think it’s somehow impolite to address a woman as though she’s an adult.
We’ve made good progress in getting rid of “Miss” in written communication. Now I want us to get rid of it in spoken communication as well. So please, just call me “Ma’am.”
Yikes! Tell us how you really feel!
I’m in sales, and when I call a woman in her 30s ma’am she cringes, “I’m not THAT old!”
I’m not trying to infantalize or demean an adult woman by calling her miss; I’m trying to avoid getting my head bit off by some age-sensitive woman.
i went to a wedding over labor day and my nametag for the reception said miss betsy lastname. fortunately, i had a pen in my purse and fixed it so it said ms.
ceejeemcbeegee: you are trying to avoid getting your head bit off by some age sensitive woman by infantilizing her.
I prefer “Madam”, as in, “Would you like paper or plastic, madam?”
Then I can channel Patsy Stone and snarl my preferred suffix–
“-oiselle! MademOISELLE!!”
@ceejee: Yeah, I know women like that. But like I said, it’s not insulting to address a woman as though she’s an adult and not a girl. We need to change that perception.
Personally, I prefer “my sovereign lady”, but I suspect that’s a little much to hope for from strangers.
I actually feel awkward when people call me ma’am, but that’s because I’m 21 so I still sort of think of myself in late-teenager adults treat you like a kid phase. Of all the things you’re actually likely to get, I think my favorite is “miz”.
I’m southern, and we call each other Ma’am all the time, so it’s never bothered me. When someone calls me Miss, it’s annoying. I’m looking around wondering who the hell they’re talking to, especially since I’m over 40, but I felt that way in my 20′s too. Miss is definitely for little girls.
Back when I was a shopgirl, I called all female customers “ma’am,” and customers generally called me “miss.”
I did get yelled at occasionally by women who were offended at being called “ma’am.” I also got yelled at occasionally by women who were offended at me not saying “ma’am” to them enough.
I got pissy last night with the charity soliciting me for donations over the phone last night. DO NOT CALL ME MRS.
I get WAY more bent out of shape about “Mrs.”. I have a male life partner but I am not a Mrs. and don’t call me one! And if we were married? Still! Don’t!
I don’t like Miss much either. Can you guess which one I do like? I think there’s a magazine about it or something.
Kim… the first thing that popped into my head was Bitch Magazine. Not what you had intended, but hilarious and just outrageous enough to have me wishing I could use “Bitch Amanda lastname” as my preferred title.
I’m not sure what I’m supposed to call generic women I don’t know. Nobody knows whether a specific woman hates “Miss” or “Ma’am” so we have to take our chances and try gauging their ages. “Ms” is awkward. I can’t imagine trying to get a woman’s attention by calling her “Ms.”
i.e. “Excuse me, Ms., I think you dropped your wallet back there.”
I like being called “Miss” because “Ma’am” seems too formal.
Personally I hate being called Mrs. I’m married, but I didn’t take his name and I’m not Mrs. thank you very much. Maybe it’s because I’m obviously pregnant, but I don’t remember the last time I was called Miss because that would really bug me too.
@SarahMC: I personally err on the side of calling women who are not teenagers “Ma’am.” If they’re touchy about their age and don’t want to be treated like grown women, that’s their problem, not mine.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it seeming “formal.” Formal just means someone’s being respectful of you.
Becky, but a lot of women react negatively to “ma’am” because they perceive it as a judgment that they’re (omg) old. Either way, some people are going to be offended.
True. Let them be offended. Being old–or even just not being a little girl–is not something women should be ashamed of, and if we cater to that idea, we only perpetuate it.
I keep getting called Mrs. by every customer service person (auto place, grocery store, etc), and it PISSES ME OFF.
I guess I’ve got a few gray hairs and a mom body, but WTF does that have to do with my marital status? They are also assuming I’m hetero which would also piss me off if I wasn’t.
What happened to Ms.? I change everything I get in the mail to Ms, I have since college. But the Mrs. keeps popping up everywhere I turn since I got married 15 yrs ago, and it WILL NOT DIE.
@Becky – Yeah, I agree. Being offended isn’t the worst thing in the world.
Honestly, a couple of times I’ve addressed an older colleague or stranger or something as ma’am and the woman in question has gotten flustered or upset, and it is SO AWKWARD. I’m just trying to be polite like my mother taught me — and it’s not like it’s not obvious that I’m younger than the woman to whom I’m speaking. Using “miss” to someone who’s clearly at least a decade and a half older than I am feels so pandering.
I think I just turn everything into Ms. in my head.
I have been on the other side though, I work at a Woman’s University and call everyone Ms. (like one does,) and sometimes, even though this would be a good place for general feminism, someone will correct me to say they prefer Mrs. or Miss. I always want to ask why I need to know their marital status.
I really think this is a regional thing. I consider myself neither “Miss” nor “Ma’am” in situations where one or the other would be appropriate. If accompanied my Lastname I prefer people use Ms, and will correct them if they don’t unless they’re very small children and don’t know the difference.
But when simply trying to get someone’s attention? That’s tricky, because I know a great many people who would be as offended by “ma’am” as others would by “miss,” and it has little to do with age.
I generally avoid using either whenever possible, but I don’t use “sir” very much, either.
Oh my, then you most certainly would not have been happy with the Radioshack salesman who asked where my husband worked, with my gf standing right next to me!
I hate being addressed as Ma’am. It’s overly formal and old-fashioned and also feels very Southern to me, and not in a good way.
@pedimed: what do you prefer? Also, nothing wrong with being. Southern!
I prefer miss to ma’am because ma’am was what mama made me call her when I was in trouble – as in “Yes Ma’am, I understand why I should not have been late for curfew. No Ma’am I won’t do it again”.
I try to avoid using either for other people, just saying “excuse me” works fine if you need their attention and I use Ms. if it’s a last name only situation.
The only person I call miss is Miss Joan, my 80-something-year-old neighbor lady who I feel funny just calling Joan. My southern breeding haunts me sometimes.
@BeckySharper: Luckily for me, when people want to address me by a “proper” title, they have to use “Dr.” If someone is trying to get my attention, I don’t really mind “Miss! Miss!” I’d prefer “Ms! Ms!” but that’s harder to actually pronounce.
In my somewhat limited observation, ma’am-ing and sir-ing your elders is more of a Southern thing, and it’s not really my style. I know it’s considered polite down there, but when I worked in the South, it made me kind of uncomfortable when parents chastised perfectly well-behaved, polite, and even charming kids for not adding “‘Ma’am” or “Sir” to every other sentence. I just experienced it as kind of oppressive. I’m sure Southerners would find me horribly rude.
I actually like Miss. When I get to pick my own title on a form, I tick the Miss box. For me it’s a way of saying No, I’m not married, and no, I’m not hiding that.
Also, my mother insisted on Ms, for sociocultural reasons I understand and think were extremely appropriate at the time. But for me it feels outdated and sort of middle-aged (which I’m not).
Interestingly, a number of completely unrelated people in my life (boss, bff) have spontaneously nicknamed me Miss Firstname. So it sort of fits.
I’m with Ceegee here. I think the way I say ‘Miss’ doesn’t infantilize women. Though maybe it does. If I could say ‘Ms.’ I would. “Ma’am” and “Sir” may be a southern thing, and honestly I don’t use it that often, but if someone acts with authority, I tend to find myself using it out of instinct. I like it better that way. “Yes” for middle managers who are too scared of their own authority to use it, “Yes, sir/ma’am” for those who act decisively.
I hate being called ma’am because it makes me feel so old (i’m 21 but look 30). I’d prefer Ms., Miss, or even Lady. Anything but ma’am.
I have a small affection for “Miss” in one particular circumstance – when I was teaching high school. The kids often called you Miss or Mister, or Miiiiiiiisssss!!@?? in some cases when they were desperate for attention like needy little kittens (the freshmen in particular). It always felt sweet to me; the whiney “Miss” in particular was probably not so far off from the way they probably whined Mom or Dad.
Oh dear. I am the worst offender with this type of thing. My tendency to use words like miss, girl, and boy for adults sprung not from any desire to infantilize myself or others, but because amongst my group of girlfriends, those words have become informal terms of affection. Emails often begin with “Hey Girl, (or Girlie, or Missy),” each of our respective SOs is “The Boy.” Within my circle, those words have become disconnected from age and don’t evoke any sense of disrespect for us. I try not to apply those terms to others, though.
Yes, I definitely associate the “Miss” with my days as a teacher, and even now when I interact with kids as their doctor — they’ll yell “Miss. Miss. Miss! MISS!” to get attention. I think it’s kind of cute.
I don’t want Miss and I don’t want Ma’am. Seriously, you can get my attention without referring to my apparent gender.
“Excuse me, please.” “May I help you?” “I’m sorry, but I don’t know when that item will be available.”
When I worked at the bookstore I used Ma’am to every female, even little girls. The little ones got a big kick out of it and the teenagers were startled that someone was taking them seriously. Sometimes, especially in a crowded store or when someone is talking on their cursed cell phones or is otherwise distracted, you do need something moire direct than “excuse me” to get their attention.
BeckyS, come to Pittsburgh, where all the waitresses in the diners will call you “hon”, regardless of your age.
[...] BeckySharper on Don’t Call Me “Miss”! [...]
@pedimed: You have a kindred spirit in MamaSharper, who, when she got her PhD was delighted that everyone would just call her Dr. and be done with it.
The ma’am and sir thing is very Southern, but I don’t think it’s necessarily bad. It does seem very formal in a society that’s gotten increasingly informal, but I suspect I’ll probably teach my children to use those terms to adults in authority. Being obviously respectful of one’s elders as a child and of others as an adult is a good thing, IMO. I’ve found that people respond very positively when I use ma’am and sir, even though I’m in my 30s.
I find ma’am insulting… What, you can’t afford the extra syllable to call me “madame”? Actually, I don’t care. I think it really depends on what you were raised with. Miss and ma’am were pretty much interchangeable and non-age specific. If anything, I always associated ma’am with the military and when I was younger thought it was a way of recognizing authority. Being respectful of one’s elders is great if they deserve respect. I would never have called any adult in my dad’s side of the family with a term of respect because they were mostly racist rednecks, and I realized that even as a child. I think you’d find as many people insulted by ma’am as you would by miss. Everyone has a way they prefer to be addressed. I tend to avoid using ma’am, miss or sir entirely unless it’s casually with someone I know. “Can I help you?” “Will that be all for you today?” I just don’t use them. I think this is a case where one person says “I couldn’t care less” and another says “I could care less”… Yes the last one is wrong, but everyone knows what they mean and while I would point it out to someone I know, I’d feel like a grammar nazi to point it out. “Paper or plastic?” “I could care less, miss.” “I THINK you mean, ‘I COULDN’T care less, MA’AM.’” Meh, I just don’t care.
Interesting. I can see your point on hating the way “miss” is used as a derogatory. But I don’t think I’ve personally ever had “miss” used against me in this way. I look quite a lot younger than my age, and I usually get “miss” in a more complimentary manner. I
I’m not a big fan of “ma’am,” but I don’t make objection to it. I do notice that it is typically used to address me when I am being more aggressive or issuing a complaint. I wonder if it comes in the attitude. For example, my husband often complains in a way that expresses a degree of entitlement and anger whereas I act as if I expect results, but am polite about it. Typically I get results whereas he gets his soup spit in. I never resort to flirtation or helplessness (I’d rather die or not ask), and I think the ma’am that comes in response is because of a grownup management of an issue. Perhaps if there were a different, comparable youthful title to miss for men, we’d hear that one too. Right now, I think my husband usually hears “asshole” muttered at him.
(Just a note: my husband isn’t a jerk, but I used hyperbole for illustrative purposes)
@vicariousrising: That’s an interesting angle.
Don’t you think the change from Miss to Ma’am in those situations is because “Miss” is associated with sweet little girls and “Ma’am” with grown-up pushy broads? So you’re Miss when you’re being sweet and non-threatening (esp. to men) but Ma’am when you’re acting like an adult who demands respect. And we all know what society thinks about women who dare to do that.
Yikes. What would Thackeray say?
Looks like my post was cut off. Note to self: never post from a blackberry!
Yikes! Tell us how you really feel!
I’m in sales, and when I call a woman in her 30s ma’am she cringes, “I’m not THAT old!”
I’m not trying to infantalize or demean an adult woman by calling her miss; I’m trying to avoid getting my head bit off by some age-sensitive woman.
Maybe it’s regional/cultural, but in my family, Miss is used to refer to someone whom you know well, Ma’am is someone you are unfamiliar with. There’s no age associated with either term. I have NEVER associated Miss with girls and Ma’am with older women. Never.
This is a very interesting conversation. I have lived in New England my whole life and if anyone threw out a ma’am, it is
As a result, ma’am makes me incredibly uncomfortable. It actually always feels classist to me, because if I am ever called ma’am then I am traveling and being served in someway. I suppose I like to think of the people working at Walgreens as my peers.
Where I live, no one uses Miss or Ma’am (or Sir, for that matter), but for Miss never feels jarring to me. We don’t have a rude reputation for nothing, I suppose.
Also, re: not offending people/letting people be offended. When you’re actually working in customer service it’s an exhausting job as is. I think it is only for one’s own personal sanity that one must defer to the least-offensive option.
Isn’t “Miss” also a Southern thing? As in using “Miss” and a woman’s first name like “Miss Marie” or “Miss Elizabeth” or something like that? I was very briefly in telemarketing and the women I spoke to from the South in states like Louisiana would do that quite a bit. Some people probably even do that around here where I live in SW Missouri.
I really think it is basically a regional/cultural thing. And honestly, I may lose some feminist cred, but I don’t really care how people refer to me–I’ve heard Miss, Ma’am, Miss April, and the like. To me, it usually represents this regional upbringing more than anything.
ooops, typo–”their regional upbringing”
@AprilLayne: In the South you do see older women called Miss So-and-So as a sign of respect, but it’s rare and only in specific circumstances. If I were really going by the Southern lady playbook, I would never call a lady my mother or grandmother’s age by her first name, but if she was a family friend or neighbor who I’d known for a while, I might call her Miss Jane instead of Mrs. Doe. It’s being one step more familiar without crossing into first-name territory. I’ve sometimes seen that form of familiar-but-not-too-familiar address be used in the African-American community as well. It’s definitely not mainstream, though.
What I’m talking about here how total strangers refer to me as Miss despite the fact that I’m obviously a grown woman. This happens frequently in NYC, where I’ve lived for the past 15 years.
I’m an Army officer, so I get ma’am-ed all day, and that’s to be expected. I am consciously aware of soldiers who don’t do it (many times deliberately as a sign of disrespect) and spend more time calling it out than I’d like.
The ma’am and sir thing is very Southern, but I don’t think it’s necessarily bad. It does seem very formal in a society that’s gotten increasingly informal, but I suspect I’ll probably teach my children to use those terms to adults in authority. Being obviously respectful of one’s elders as a child and of others as an adult is a good thing, IMO.
I’m sure you didn’t intend it this way, but I read this bit as encouraging children to defer to authority for its own sake. Did you mean it as such or just as an acknowledgment that when you’re dealing with people in power (especially as a child), there’s a certain pragmatism to being deferential or something else?
I’ll teach my daughter the importance of politeness and being respectful, which includes addressing people as they prefer to be addressed.
I confess that being trans, I take what I can get and cherish every time I pull a female title from the hat and not ‘sir’ or ‘mister’. Generally, I guess I would use ma’am for others, but avoid it whenever possible in general.
I’m also horribly socially inept, so a bad judge of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ on such things. I can only speak for myself, and as I said: I’m not picky, I take what I can get.
Really good point, Jamie.
So if my name were Kithkin Meadowgrain, all my undergraduate professors called me Ms. Meadowgrain all the time. I loved it. It kept class professional without it feeling so restrictive that some students wouldn’t participate (except, of course, those who were lazy enough that they wouldn’t have participated regardless).
However, the other commenters are right: this isn’t a tenable solution, I don’t think, because it really does sound awkward to only say “Ms.” and strangers on the street or in the grocery store don’t know my name (telemarketers, however, ought to be calling me Ms. Meadowgrain).
I’m young, and short, and babyfaced, so I love it when I get called ma’am rather than miss. It really is about being regarded seriously as an adult and I’ll take that where I can get it.
While I completely see what you’re saying, I just signed an RSVP card for a wedding today as “Miss Flackette and Mr. Flackette’s Boyfriend”. It doesn’t really bother me. While I totally agree that women should not be defined by their marital status whilst men get to use the generic “Mr.”, for whatever reason this is just one of those things that has never bugged me.
Also, I live in the South, where 85 year old ladies are frequently called “Miss Beulah” or whatever, I’ve been called Ma’am since I was 14, and the local accent makes either Miss or Ms. sound like “Mizzz”.
So I think it’s fair to conclude that the practice of using “Miss” or “ma’am” has both very different origins and very different interpretations. Therefore, in the interest of peace and mutual understanding (can you tell that the Day of Atonement is drawing near?), I propose that we take no offense at the first occurrence of the unwanted title, correct the speaker if it seems useful and only thereafter conclude that offense is meant.
Then, the (white) gloves come off.
@Jamie: In your case, I’d say getting people to recognize your gender as female is the higher priority, so yeah, I can totally see why you’d be fine with Miss or Mrs!
@evil_fizz: I don’t think children should defer to authority because authority’s always right. But I think it’s fine for children to realize that other people–especially elders–should be addressed with respect, which, among other things, means defaulting to “Mr” or “Ms” until they’re invited to use a first name.
If children don’t learn to respect others when they’re young, they grow into adults who don’t respect anyone.
I’ve had people address me as both ma’am and miss and although ma’am shocks me a little because I just turned 23, I prefer it to miss. Miss seems to be so infantalizing and I don’t like it at all. I’m a grown woman dammit!
I got called “Mrs. mylastnamealsomyfather’sname” the other day and I pretty much died. I am ONLY 23. And my mother is Mrs. myfather’slastname! I have a ring on my left hand, but it is technically a “right hand ring” (don’t even get me started) because my partner’s ring isn’t ready to be moved to my left hand. And that’s not even an engagement ring.
Gah!