I read Hortense’s piece at Jezebel about this UK survey – in which 74% of women surveyed allegedly said they believed childless women should be entitled to something equivalent to the standard six-months given for maternity leave in the UK – and sort of thought to myself: I smell some social science journalism trollery.
I have no idea why this proposal has to be framed as an “equivalent” to maternity leave. I’m childless, but actually, in my sort of general feeling that Capitalism Is Bunk, think we all need more leave time. In my highly corporate day job I get four weeks’ vacation, plus a lot of side time if I need it and my hours are up to speed – this is the one joy I derive from being a so-called “professional.” And yet, on a recent trip away, I said to a friend that when I do eventually quit this job (ETD: sometime between April and June 2010, if all goes well) I’m gonna need like a month just to sleep. My body is run down; I have three separate stress-related medical conditions I’m currently treating. And yet I’m the kind of person who is considered a “slacker” at my job and have, most years, taken much of my allotted vacation time. This year I have taken three trips! Which makes me wonder how other people are doing it.
All that said, my vision of more flexible workplace policies that would allow us all to be healthier, less crazed people has very little to do with some kind of quid pro quo with my child-bearing sisters. While I will admit to occasionally being annoyed when one workplace colleague on Facebook (who gave birth a few months ago) posts statuses like, “hmm, soap opera or nap?” I’m mature enough to recognize that my twinges of jealousy in no way negate that she probably spent three months locked indoors with no adult conversation for her pains, and also, like, pushed a watermelon out of her hoo-ha. Which! Annoying as my job is, I did not do. So probably she’s entitled to more quality Price is Right time than I am.
Nonetheless, being on the childless side of the fence as I am – and likely ever to be – I can’t say I don’t watch the whole maternity leave debate with a bit of irritation at times. First of all, while I am totally on the moms’ sides here as detailed above, I can’t help but feel, viscerally, devalued in this debate. This has a lot to do with how parental leave tends to get framed as a “women’s” issue – as though it were of universal concern to us. This is of course a second-order question – in some sense it is a women’s issue because it affects a large number of women, and that needs to be enough, a lot of the time. But it is yet another way in which I am reminded how much I have removed myself from the “sisterhood,” so to speak, simply by choosing not to procreate.
That sounds melodramatic, of course, and yet it is how I feel, often, in the company of women who do have children. They will talk formula and mat leave and they will complain about not having enough time to spend with children, and I will say something about what’s going on in my life and they will smile and change the subject. And they do not have to do this in the underminery way that is caricatured on television, they can just be uninterested, separate, apart, inaccessible. In my heart of hearts I do not really think my life is lesser than theirs, nor do I think they would phrase it that way if I asked them, of course. But the sense is there, anyway.
And of course I find all too often that maternity leave has become the sum total of “women’s issues” in the workplace. At my own workplace, for example, the women’s committee spends almost all of its time talking abou how to balance motherhood and career. On Meet the Press this weekend, parenthood was discussed as the major feature of womanhood without much challenge. Other issues – sexual harassment, coping strategies for mansplainers and male silencing techniques (which I think are HUGELY important if women are to become equals and yet are almost never addressed) – are treated as less important, less crucial to womanhood in the workplace. Some of this has to do with living in a society that regards itself as post-sexist, certainly. But a lot of it also has to do with that in certain fundamental ways, mainstream feminism continues to concede that women are, by and large, heavily focussed on procreation.
I’m not interested, particularly, in declaring war on mothers. But where I get annoyed with them, to be perfectly honest, is the point at which they don’t seem to be particularly on my side. I mean, sure, many will give lip service to these things, but at the end of the day – and this is maybe just a function of how parenthood works – the well-being of women with children is more important to them. This is of course not true of all women with children – I doubt many of our commenters would self-describe this way.
But as I grow older I am having a harder and harder time with this particular point of solidarity. I do think, for a variety of reasons that are no fault of their own, mothers are valued in a way that single, childless women are not. Motherhood is viewed as definitionally selfless, when I think, in fact, it is more complicated than that, and I think most women know that, but I don’t know how to get beyond this place where women continue to clutch at their roles as parents. To make it central to female identity. Obviously one of the solutions is to have men become more involved in parenthood, granted equal leave – I am personally of the opinion that nothing will be better for women than the day when men are expected to share equally in the care of progeny. But then, as far as the childless go, we are still at square one. We are still the people missing some fundamentally human feature.
Thoughts?
This is a great post and a great topic, PS.
I was a stay at home mom until our younger child was 16. I was lucky enough to have women friends with and without kids, some who worked outside the home and some who didn’t. But every single one of them felt guilty, frustrated, dissatisfied with herself. There is just no winning for women in our culture, and when we don’t support each other, we all lose big. I think that a lot of what you’re seeing, PS, is defensive overreaction that comes from fear of making the wrong choices, being a bad parent and on and on. Of course, understanding where it comes from doesn’t make it any easier to live with.
You raise a number of questions. Should parents receive benefits and privileges that non-parents don’t? Why or why not? How can we see that all of the concerns of working women are addressed and not just the ones of the majority? How can we educate women that not having children is a valid and respect-worthy choice, deserving of support by women with kids? How, finally, can we prevent the patriarchy from causing this rift between us? Because really, that’s the basis of all of this.
I’m not going to try to answer all of those in this post. I’ll just look at the leave issue itself. The first thing to consider in the leave question is: do we as a society value the choice to have children? If so, we as a society have to take reasonable steps to accommodate that choice. That means that those people who choose to have kids will receive different treatment, in the workplace and elsewhere.
So then I’d ask: how is maternity leave different from extended medical leave? One is voluntary and the other isn’t, obviously, but if we’ve decided that we value having kids, should that make a difference? How do such leaves affect the workers who don’t take such leaves? Are they rewarded in any way for taking on extra work? If not, should they be?
This is just for starters. I don’t think that anyone should be penalized for having kids-or for not having them.
I think there’s a way in which maternity leave is almost a proxy issue for all the other concerns you mention (“sexual harassment, coping strategies for mansplainers and male silencing techniques”), partly I guess because women are often not taken seriously in the workplace due to the assumptions that “they’re just going to leave once they have kids, anyway” or that mothers are somehow slacking when they need time off to deal with their families. I think that if we could all figure out how to structure work so that we could also have full, rewarding lives outside of work, then there’d be less bias against women in the workplace in general.
Which does not mean that sexual harassment, mansplainers, and male silencing techniques are not important topics to discuss, or lesser issues than maternity leave. But I think they’re all coming from the same assumption that women are less serious about work than men, and therefore more easily dismissed in the workplace, because we’re the sex/reproductive class.
Also, I’m childless, but my views on some of this changed when I realized that if I wanted to support women in general (which I do, since I think that’s the main goal of feminism), then I needed to support parents, period. Because so much of the shit that gets thrown at women — the second shift, assumptions about our fitness for certain jobs, our concerns being dismissed as trivial or domestic rather than universal and important — stems from the fucked-up way we treat childcare (and those issues affect women who don’t have kids, too).
I certainly don’t see motherhood as selfless; I see it as a lot of work, and our culture’s coding it as “selfless” is a way of erasing the actual *work* that it entails. I think that drawing attention to the work that women do, whether that’s at home (giving birth, raising children, housework) or at the office helps combat the pernicious stereotype that women don’t do valuable work.
One of the kyriarchy’s favorite techniques is the wedge. In this case, keeping moms and not-moms busy fighting (or resenting) each other means we don’t have the time or the energy left to question the underlying premises: like why don’t we put more value on caretaking in general (and why women bear the brunt of it, whether it’s childcare or eldercare or any other kind of care), and who benefits from keeping us all too exhausted to work on each other’s issues, much less look out for our own?
It’s less that “mothers” are valued in a way that other women are not, I’ve found. From the mom-side of the artifical divide, it seems that “motherhood” is mythologised as the epitome of womanhood. That mythology is used to shame all women, because we all fail at being the perfect mother — whether we actually spawn children or not.
@mischiefmanager is exactly right — this rift is manufactured by the patriarchy and there’s just no winning. But the game is set up to convince us that “winning” is possible in order to keep us fighting each other.
I think we *can* win-when we respect and advocate for each other’s choices. Whether we choose to have kids or not, we’re treated differently than men in the same situation. Our victory begins when we remember that and work together. Sisters unite!
Back to your Capitalism is Bunk point where you started — I got laid off in July after 10 years in a job with a Very Big Corporation. It was a good job for a long time, then the last couple of years as pressure to increase “productivity” amped up, it was increasingly awful. I was lucky, I saw my layoff coming with enough time to drum up freelance work, and I live where expenses are low, but man o’man — I slept for a month after getting the axe. It took probably 2 months even to get back to a place where I could think again. The corporate maw is a very difficult place — and while I don’t have kids, yeah, there were times I looked at women I worked with and thought — six months! Of course, they hardly get it “off” — life witha newborn is no picnic, especially with as little extended family as most people have. But there were times I envied them. Now I’m just going to be poor with a lot of free time. It’s a huge relief.
I think you are 100% dead on about maternity leave being the sum total of “women’s issues”, according to corporate America.
I was “appointed” (i.e. told I would attend to represent my division) to a “women’s issues focus group” at that last company where I worked. I was the only childless woman in the group. When the issue of flextime came up, I pointed out that if flextime was intended to help achieve work-life balance, then it needed to be extended to all employees, not just working mothers, because working mothers are not the only ones with work-life balance issues.
You would have thought I’d squatted and peed on the boardroom table. In a company comprised of 70% female employees, none of the women on the “women’s issues board” thought that young, childless women had any “issues” about the workplace that needed resolving, let alone ones related to quality of life. I was shouted down by a number of irate mommies who thought I was just being insensitive to how very, very difficult it is for working moms, and I could never understand all those sacrifices because as a childless woman, I lived in my little bubble of irresponsible bliss. The whole things was a huge FAIL, and I told the CEO that when he deigned to attend the meeting.
I absolutely support better maternity leave policies–one day I hope to avail myself of them–but to say that child-rearing is the only concern a working woman might have is actually fairly…retro…in its thinking .
Yeah, see, Cheryl and mischief, I certainly understand that there is no real winning for mothers. I think what I am trying to say is that when the aim of feminism becomes indivisible from the claims of “motherhood” it loses something because motherhood is, necessarily, as you point out, a patriarchal construct. Now, note I am not claiming superior revolutionary street cred for not-mothers. What I am saying is that when things like what Becky’s describing happen, all in the name of “advancing women in the workplace,” I start to get majorly pissed off. Crabs in a bucket? Sure. What I’m saying I think is that I resent these mommy feminists for saying they’re trying to change things when they can’t even see the bucket.
(Of course this is not all mothers who are feminists who do this.)
Perhaps what I’m saying is that I don’t think it’s me who’s driving this wedge.
@occhi – I’m actually not sure that this can be a very good proxy just because, as pointed out, there is so much potential for mat leave policies to simply reify women’s positions as primary caregivers. Dudes get to sit around and say “look at how nice we were to the ovaries!” and yet very little changes when women are defined as child-rearers first and professionals second, yes?
@Charlotte – the other Harpies can testify o the fact that my greatest dream for the last few months has been a layoff.
@Becky – I wonder if the mothers were worried that instead of flex time and other benefits being extended to all employees, the higher-ups would decide that since everyone has work-life balance issues and men/women without children were doing fine without flex time, that women with children didn’t need it, either. Not that they are then in the right, but it’s a reasonable worry to have.
I remember reading once that the CEO of some huge corporation had expressed puzzlement at this idea that women should be given maternity leave, flex time, etc. in order to be able to be an involved parent as well as a successful careerist, because from his perspective, no one had ever been able to have it all — he and his male peers had simply given up having a family life to focus on their jobs and he believed the same choice was being offered to women.
What I’d like, as a woman on the path to entering the work force, is for the two to be uncoupled. The American workplace sucks at allowing workers to balance job and life, as Becky mentioned, and that includes parenthood. But it sucks like that for everyone. I don’t know any men who are in the corporate world and really feel like their jobs are supportive of them balancing work and life any more than I know women who feel that way.
There are also issues of harassment, silencing, etc. that are problems for women specifically and should be addressed as such. But I really don’t see what that has to do with work-life balance.
PS, I may not have been clear. I don’t think there’s any winning for any of us women. But nor do I think that it’s women with kids who are driving the wedge. It’s male executives who are doing that. The moms are afraid that if they let up on the pressure for mat leave, they’ll lose it. That leaves them no energy to fight the battles that affect every working women, which leads to the women who complain about harassment and the rest of it being a minority of women in the workplace and easier to ignore and/or marginalize.
The most urgent need gets the attention, and when your due date is approaching, or your kid gets sick at school, the smarmy remarks at the water fountain get pushed to the bottom of the list. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying it’s human nature.
I agree that you have reason to feel resentful. The irony is that if we work outside the home for 40 years or so, we will likely be in many different life situations during that time. Moms, let me tell you-your kids won’t be at home forever, and then the dirty remarks and talking over at meetings and all of it won’t seem so trivial. It would behoove you to help to fix it now.
*points at mischiefmanager* What she said.
PS, When you describe feminist mothers as “mommy feminists” and say that “they’re trying to change things when they can’t even see the bucket,” I do think you’re getting distracted by the wedge (nobody thinks you’re driving it; like mm said, the wedge is driven by those in power).
The power structure tells is telling each and every one of us that there’s only limited quantities of cookies, and that you can’t have any because Those Women Over There are using up all the cookies & there’s none left for you! Problem is, the power structure is telling “those women over there” the *same thing about you*. And while we waste our time resenting each other, they’re making off with all the cookies.
Let’s stop letting the kyrarchy narrow the terms of the debate.
Caretaking isn’t a “mother” thing. Caretaking can be of children or of elderly parents or of temporarily-in-need adults. It’s community building. It’s feeding of anyone who happens to be hungry and needs a meal. It’s all those un- and underpaid tasks culturally assigned to women. Women’s work is chronically undervalued and much of it is involved in providing services for others.
The corporate world sets up caretaking as somehow incompatible with workplace success. The patriarchy defines “caretaking” as a feminine pursuit. The two together collude to paint career success as therefore uniquely masculine, and the subsequent gendering of success screws us all.
It’s so hard to talk about this without everything being focused around mothers, which I don’t think does anyone favors. It’s limiting to focus on maternity leave because then the expectation remains that the woman will assume the responsibly of infant care.
In a perfect world, we (everyone, not just women) would all be able to access time off from work to tend to personal and family (of any sort) needs. As it is, a lot of jobs in the US don’t even have sick leave.
Well, Cheryl, you’ll be shocked but I don’t agree.
I guess what I am confused about here is why it’s okay to marginalize childless women even as a contingent political strategy. I mean, were we to put this along another axis, it would obviously be wrong for us to step on the heads of some women in order to gain rights for others.
And I do think it’s too much to say that the mommy activists really would be interested in our interests if they weren’t so busy on the mat leave front. My impression is that a lot of these women are very invested in reifying the boundaries between childless and, uh, childful women. Which maybe makes them not-feminists, and fair enough.
I agree that the real targets are male executives/the patriarchy. But I have trouble feeling solidarity with women who are content to throw me under the bus because it’s more important to them personally that their child get the parenting he/she needs.
Again, as I say in the post, I’m not declaring war on mothers. What I am saying is that the motherhood rhetoric is not helpful in terms of achieving equality in the workplace generally.
re your word down point: I have always been envious of my friends who are teachers because of the couple months of uninterrupted vacation they get ever year. They all use it to rest and recharge, travel and generally devote themselves to pursuits completely unrelated to money making. I wish we all had that sort of option. How achievable is it? that’s the question. That’s also why I’m not an economist.
I have a little bit of an odd and related situation at my day job. The vast majority of employees in my department are older males. I am a younger childless female. I am only one of two females in a “skilled” position (meaning not an admin-type position. My job is fairly niche.)
At a conference recently I was talking to young male coworker and young female (admin) coworker about how our (older childless male) boss was always doing and saying things to dissuade me from having children. He does things like refer to “people like us who don’t want kids” and saying things of that nature. Male coworker told me that he is aware of that and knows from conversations with Boss that it is intentional and calculated. Boss really does not want me to have kids. Female coworker said “That’s weird. He’s never done that to me!” Male coworker said (admittedly sticking his foot in his mouth) that Boss didn’t want me to have kids because I’m harder to replace. Since he saw her as easily replaceable he didn’t care if she had kids.
How fucked up is that? On the one hand it’s nice to feel valued, but it sucks that he feels my job is seen as being in competition with my potential motherhood.
WORN down. sorry…
PS, I agree with you. Here’s the way I think it played out. Both the general women’s concerns and the specific parent (read:mom) concerns began to be raised at around the same time. But the mom thing caught on more easily because (1) there were a few men who decided they could benefit by such leave and (2) kids make a much easier argument than more inchoate and threatening issues as harassment, silencing, hostile workplace and so forth.
Moms can be completely myopic on the subject of their kids, but in the workplace that’s neither useful nor appropriate. Other people have problems too, and their problems just might be yours one day.
I wonder what would happen if childless women could say directly to women with kids, “Look, I’ll get your back if you get mine. You have pressures; so do I. Let’s work together here.”
I think you’re conflating two things. Your medical problems are a form of disability. Your invisibility to the moms at your workplace isn’t about childfree vs. mothers its more about TAB vs. disabled persons. Feminism often lacks that intersectional lens, it fails to see how disability affects women. But there is no reason to set this up as a point of contention between moms and the childfree when its really an issue of all TAB, including many feminists, ignoring the needs of those with disability.
I think it’s odd for childless women to ask for an equivalent to “maternity leave,” when that’s not really what they (seem to) mean. I don’t see why that request for more time off is gendered at all; I think all workers could use fewer demands on their time from The Man.
I know I would like to have greater flexibility at my job, but it’s not envy of my co-workers who take maternity leave. I’m sure most of my co-workers, regardless of sex or parenthood status, would like the same thing. Dads should get just as much parental leave as moms. And I wish childless folks had more flexibility, although I don’t see why they/we should necessarily get the equivalent time off as new moms and dads.
Kristen, I guess what I would say is that I feel really uncomfortable calling my stress-related conditions a disability. Not just because they are fairly invisible, but because by and large they do not impair “function” in the way I think we would usually require to deem me disabled.
Freshpeaches, yep, that’s The Man giving you the old backhanded compliment right there. “You’d sure be a valuable employee dagnabbit but I’m worried about them ovaries of yours!”
notmandy, totally agree. That’s why Capitalism Is Bunk.
PS, I’m going to step out of this discussion, because you’re clearly having an argument with somebody else and it’s only pissing me off to see you attaching my name to somebody else’s arguments. Whoever it is who’s marginalizing women as a political strategy, go argue with them.
“The motherhood rhetoric is not helpful in terms of achieving equality in the workplace generally.”
I disagree. I think that the concept of maternity leave has led to paternity leave and “family leave,” which are steps towards equality in the workplace. I think you’re falling into the capitalistic/patriarchal trap of pitting groups of women against each other when you say that women who care more about their children’s needs than your needs are “throwing you under the bus.” I like mischiefmanager’s point that you never know when someone else’s problems will become yours.
Cheryl, if you come back – I didn’t think you were making those arguments at all. I was saying that I see the mat-leave-centric activism in the workplace making them, and marginalizing women. Sorry I pissed you off – I genuinely did not mean to imply that you were making these arguments.
Pedimd, I don’t see how I can be pitting women against each other when I have said repeatedly that none of this affects my support of more reasonable family leave policy. What I am saying is that what I see going on in workplace environments is often a support of mat leave issues to the exclusion of all other gendered problems – including, of course, elder care!
I have to say that this is why I find this hard to talk about, because eventually it turns into my being divisive, when I’m simply pointing out that if it really is ok to be childless, if it doesn’t affect your status as a human being, I am not sure why working mothers can’t be supportive of others’ issues. Particularly where, as in the sexual harassment and gendered crap I’m talking about above, they are already affecting working mothers.
I think being a mother changes your priorities, so that you focus on things that are important to raising your child and keeping the child safe and happy. I don’t think it means that working mothers don’t care about other issues, just that there’s only so much time and energy in a day, and what energy they have, they want to put towards their kid. I say this as a non-mother, but very doting aunt.
You seem devisive when you assume that when working mothers don’t focus other issues, it’s because they think you’re less than human because you don’t have kids.
Well, pedimd, I’m not saying necessarily that they think that, or, as I say in the post, would phrase it that way. What I am saying is that that is how they sometimes make younger childless women feel, whether they intend to or not.
@SarahMC: I completely agree with what you have said. Exactly how I feel.
It sounds to me like the bottom line here is that women with kids expect understanding, respect and flexibility because of their decision to have kids, but PS doesn’t feel that they are willing to give the same things to her, a person who has made a different choice but still has demands in her personal life that may benefit from those same things. [Run-on sentence much, MM?] I know that when yo have kids your vision can become very narrow and highly focused, but I don’t think it has to be that way. Becoming a parent doesn’t mean the rest of the world is less important. I think it makes you a better parent to keep your family’s needs in perspective. We *all* have needs for time that may conflict with work. How can we balance all legitimate calls for time off without judging each other’s choices or trying to say that kids are more important than parents/partners/ourselves?
I love my kids more than anything (except my husband) but I’m not willing to say that other people should make sacrifices on their behalf or mine, especially if I’m not willing to do the same for them.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Akhila Kolisetty, Yancey Thomas. Yancey Thomas said: Maternity Leave as a Feminist Flashpoint – The Pursuit of Harpyness http://bit.ly/1Ge9I3 [...]
Thanks MM, that made me feel understood.
I think this is a very good point, mischiefmanager: “It sounds to me like the bottom line here is that women with kids expect understanding, respect and flexibility because of their decision to have kids, but PS doesn’t feel that they are willing to give the same things to her, a person who has made a different choice but still has demands in her personal life that may benefit from those same things.”
That’s at least what I got from PS’s post.
Oh, thank you for posting this. I saw the post on Jezebel (although not until today) and immediately decided that I was not stepping in that comment thread. Because this always gets framed as mothers vs. non-mothers, and the idea that I, as a single, childless woman in her 20s, have no issues, no problems that need to be addressed has always infuriated me. And unfortunately, whether they like to admit it or not, that’s exactly how mothers in the workplace have behaved in my experience. Most of the time I do feel as if by being single and childless I lack importance when it comes to workplace issues, and frankly? A lot of the time it pisses me off.
I think one of the things this highlights is the tension in feminism where, while feminism is (must be) for all women, not all women are feminists.
And I don’t mean that as a devisive feminists vs non-feminists way (eek!). It’s just that I’ve been thinking a lot lately about who we do this (feminism) for and I think there is this unresolved tension/contradiction where feminism has to support the needs of all women, but at the same time there are an enormous number of of women who don’t really have a feminist consciousness and therefore aren’t alert to the ways in which the idealisation of motherhood and caring (for example) can be used to exclude childless women AND how it reinforces gendered oppression by placing the burden of care on women by default.
Very interesting, and I feel very fortunate that my workplace is generous with flextime for all employees. Arranging a flexible schedule to, say, volunteer somewhere is as accepted as flexing to spend time with one’s children. At least, that’s been my experience (as one without children), and I hope it is the same for others.
But to address another point – I’d love more discussion of how to talk about other feminist issues in the workplace, specfically silencing/mansplaining. Again, I feel fortunate that I haven’t experienced these problems myself in my current job, but I absolutely think we should talk about them (just because it hasn’t happened to me doesn’t mean it’s not happening). But I don’t have a good idea about how to start that discussion…. Anyone had success?
After more than 30 years in my profession and ten with my company, I still only get three weeks – which must be taken separately. I am feeling cheated.
But I do mean to say, you are SO right. We work too hard for too little so too few can get too rich.
AND (I meant to add this but I’m tired from working) it benefits business if we’re arguing about family/maternal leave and who is entitled because then they don’t have to pony up because it’s such a devisive issue and “not fair.” Bleargh.
So much to synthesize from this post and the comments. Hard to leave comment as I’m typing one handed while I nurse my newborn, from my couch while on maternity leave.
I think maternity leave is a family issue. I don’t think it’s a women’s issue. I think framing it as a women’s issue makes the debate a wedge issue, and a tool of the kyriarchy.
Yeah…too much spinning around in my brain to get out coherently with one hand.
Excellent post. Per ushe.
I’m sorry I’m so late to this post, but here goes anyway.
I agree with the overall message here that maternity leave has become the sum total of “women’s issues” in the workplace, and this needs to be changed. Issues like silencing and mansplaining need to be addressed are also important and should be addressed as well.
However, I do have some issues with this post. Besides wanting to punch the computer screen every time I read “mommy” in the comments, I feel like maternity leave is misunderstood. Women are only given 4 weeks before and 4 weeks after (6 weeks for a C section) the birth, and this isn’t necessarily at full pay (I had a total of 4 weeks full pay after that it dropped to 2/3 and if I stayed any longer, it would have dropped to no pay). Anything more is either covered by the state or the company. Maternity leave isn’t for spending time with the baby. It is for recovery. The four weeks before is given because at that point it is hard to even move around. The four weeks after is because the abdominal muscles are incredibly weak, the mother is still losing massive amounts of blood, and the vagina is swollen, usually torn, and it is painful just to sit normally. In the case of a C section, she is recovering from surgery. To add to this, mothers are recovering while getting no more than two hours of sleep at a time (assuming she is keeping the baby) Maternity leave is synonymous with disability leave not time off to spend with the kids- This is why maternity leave is given even if the child is being adopted away.
Next, I don’t give a shit if it doesn’t affect all women- it is still a women’s issue; just like issues for black women are still women’s issues; just like sexual harassment is still a women’s issue (even though not all women are sexually harassed); just like homophobia and thin privilege are women’s issues even though it doesn’t affect ALL women.
I understand that childless women are pressured to become mothers and when they show no interest, they are excluded from some circles, told they are selfish, and treated as if they are somehow non-women. But it isn’t any better if you become a mother either. Mothers are subjected to constant scrutiny. Mothers are seen as less valuable than childless women in the workplace. Mothers have to fight to be seen as themselves instead of X’s mommy. I know as a childless woman in a group of mothers you feel excluded and feel like they see you as lesser because you don’t have kids. But they probably feel that you see them as just “mommies” and nothing more. Even though you are trying to be on their side, they feel defensive because usually no one but other moms are on their side. Yes it’s frustrating, but they will continue to immediately go on the defensive until they feel safe around you; and treating maternity leave as vacation rather than the medical leave it is, doesn’t do you any favors.
Alyssa, I guess all I can say is that in substantial part we are in agreement, and the only thing we seem to differ on is who “has it worse,” which is, I think we could both agree, a very stupid argument. I think what I was trying to give voice to is the sense that some of the defensiveness is unfounded, at least in my case. And I kind of feel like the tone of your response supports my feeling that the volume gets ratcheted up too fast – on both sides sure, but in this context I do seem to be in a minority of childless women on this thread.
For example, I didn’t treat maternity leave as a vacation. (I don’t think anyone else did either.) I shouldn’t have used the word “mommy,” but honestly, at no other point have I even implied that maternity leave is a vacation. If anything the post was a reaction to the notion that it was. I mention above the physical side of it, of which I am aware, though I tried not to make too much of a big deal of it because, for an adoptive parent, parental leave can be an important issue too.
Again, what frustrates me here is that we seem unable to have a conversation about the concerns of childless women basically ever without being accused of not being sufficiently deferential to women who do have children. And I have to say, I get really tired of playing that dynamic out, again and again.
I completely agree with you on the point that concerns of women that don’t deal with children go grossly unnoticed. As as you’ve already alluded to these really aren’t concerns for childless women, but all women.
Also I’m sorry if I started a who has it worse argument. I certainly didn’t mean to do that- just trying to remind everyone that mothers aren’t having children to be part of the in club (which I know you weren’t implying at all).
And I actually do agree that you haven’t given any mothers reason to be defensive about you, but I’m hoping that you see that unless they know you really well, they are going to be. I’m assuming (maybe wrongly) that the group of mothers in Becky’s comment don’t read this blog, and don’t know her well enough to understand her intentions. I’m assuming that most mothers that you meet in person are in the same situation where they don’t know that your intentions are good. If you react to their defensiveness with defensiveness of your own (which is incredibly hard not to do, and I don’t blame you if you do), it will solidify that gap between you and that group of mothers. Unfortunately after that, everything becomes mothers vs. women with no children when it really should both sides helping each other.
Just to be clear, I don’t think you are doing/saying anything wrong here. I’m just trying to offer an explanation for why a group of mothers often go on the defensive when it seems like there is no reason for them to.
Anyway, I think I’m rambling and I’m not sure if I’m making sense, so I think I better stop here.
Thanks for listening.
I think parental leave is a women’s issue because caretaking work wouldn’t be so devalued if it weren’t traditionally done by women. This doesn’t leave you out of the sisterhood, it just mean the patriarchy finds ways to screw everything even vaguely related to women.