As opposed to the botoxed succubi preying on fresh, sweet mannfleisch that rightfully belongs only to the nubile.
In a recent New York Times Fashion section (’cause that’s where the stories for ladies go), Sarah Kershaw noted with incredulity that women over 35 who date men 5 or more years younger than they are not necessarily grotesquely withered demons of neediness.
This all has to do with the new ABC comedy (?) Cougar Town, which is spawning ever more “think pieces” on the shocking news that women do not shrivel up and die once they hit 40. Kershaw seems open to this shocking turn of events, and reports, in an unnecessarily pearl-clutching fashion, that her survey of how older women/younger men couples do not indicate that “cougars” are giant dysfunctional freakshows portending doom for romance.
We’re none of us old enough (35+) to qualify as cougars (although I’m drawing close), but I was curious if my sister harpies had dated anyone far younger or older, and how that played out. Our discussion, after the jump.
PhDork: I don’t think I’ve ever dated anyone more than a year or two younger, and that was long, long ago. I’ve been very very briefly involved with a couple guys who were quite a bit older– 6, 7 years, 16 years, I think, in another and had a heavy, totally inappropriate work flirtation with a guy 19 years older (those aren’t going to be dissected in the NYT–too normal: they wanted my youth/beauty/baby-makin’ capacity, I wanted their money/expertise/daddy-love. Right? ) Also long, long ago. In varying cases, I’ve had the “age is only a number” experience and the “whoa there, we’re clearly coming from different generational viewpoints, and not in a good way” go-round, too. The Dude and I are about 6 weeks apart in age. He’s older. I’m so traditional.
SarahMC: My boyf and I are about one month apart in age. I can’t really picture myself with anyone much younger than myself, but men younger than myself are under 27. Maybe when I’m cougar-aged (no, boyf, I’m not breaking up with you).
I’m baffled and disheartened that a crap show like Cougar Town is supposedly super-popular. Do people just have awful taste in general or is there a real market for cougar drama?
PhDork: A little of column A, a little of column B…
BeckySharper: I’ve been the May in a May/December relationship and hated all the stereotyping and bullshit that went with it (Viagra jokes, being immediately pegged as a bimbo/golddigger). So I’m really not tempted to discover the stereotypes and bullshit involved in being the December.
PhDork: I teach young men in their prime “cub” years, and while there have been some over the years who are cute/smart/charming, I’ve never found myself really *attracted* to them. And not because I’m trying to keep my hands to myself. 18-22 year olds are rather callow, and I can’t get het up about pretty packaging if the box is empty, ifyannowhutimeen. And I’ve (almost) never been the hook-up-with-a-near-stranger type, even when I have been single.
SarahMC: If you don’t want *your* box to be empty, you’re gonna have to take what you can get in your old age.
PhDork: Zing!
BeckySharper: I agree completely that really young men just seem so…young. I’m sure there are rare men out there who are old and wise beyond their years–just as there are men who are middle-aged outside and little boys inside–but in general, if I see a hot dude in his 20s, I just assume he’s got a lot of growing up to do, and–as we say down South–I ain’t takin’ ‘em to raise. I did date a sexy Aussie guy last year who was 27 and very open about preferring older women. I was 33 at the time but his previous relationship had been with a woman in her early 40s. He claimed that older women are more confident, calm and sexually assertive than 20something women, and he preferred them for that reason. He definitely was much more mature–emotionally and sexually–than most 27 year old men of my acquaintance, but I’m not sure whether he was attracted to older women because he was more mature, or he became more mature by spending so much time in their company.
Still, if I’m going to have to take what I can get when I’m middle-aged (and therefore hideous by Patriarchal standards), at least this dumbass Cougar stereotype acknowledges the fact that young dudes might still be interested in an older woman…even though I’ll have to stalk them, pounce and then drag them home in my jaws.
Isn’t that at least somewhat better than the usual image of women over 40 as lumpy old broads who should just stay home and cuddle their 87 cats?
PhDork: Yes, but the “cougar” image is still really limited in terms of race and class and bodytype. Attractive in a conventionally feminine sense, gym-fit, at least middle-class, and white white white.
BeckySharper: Didn’t Fran Drescher do a show a while back about being with a much younger man–based on her own experiences? I seem to remember it coming and going pretty quickly. Maybe it didn’t play into the whole “Sexy…rawr!” stereotype enough. Fran’s gorgeous, but she’s a Jewish comedian with a big loud honk of a voice–not a cougar from the Demi/Courtney Cox mold.
PhDork: Was the term “cougar” even used when Terry McMillan brought us Stella and her sexy Caribbean cub Winston 15 years ago? Are there any non-white characters in Cougar Town? I have the perhaps misbegotten impression that the older-woman/younger man relationship is actually more common in non-white groups, although I couldn’t say why.
So, readers, share your thoughts. Are there any cougars–or aspiring cougars–among us? Have you subjected yourself to Cougar Town? Is the fascination with cougars just about finding another female demographic to exploit and objectify, or is there an upside to this soi-disant cultural phenomenon?
But the stalking, pouncing, and dragging them home in my jaws part sounds kinda fun…
So, I’m only two years past the alleged cutoff, but here’s how it seems to me. When I was younger I was always interested in guys who were older than me for the reason y’all have already identified – for some reason they don’t seem to grow up until they hit their mid-20s. With some exceptions, of course. But more recently I see the appeal of younger men, because there actually are men in that age-group who are sorta grown up. I’ve never been attracted to any of my students either, but I’ve had several fuck-buddies/prolonged flirtations with guys who were in their mid-late 20s. But I think this is partially due to the fact that I hang out with climbers and grad student types, and more of the guys my age around here are cowboys, which just sort of isn’t my thing, and/or they have some sort of messed up ideas about gender. Also, I allegedly look much younger than I am, and I hang out at the bouldering gym, where a lot of the non-cowboy types in that age-range also happen to be. I do think that in some cases it’s a matter of them being attracted to a woman who appears to have her shit together, but that can also translate into a desire to be taken care of, which is a huge deal-breaker for me. I take care of my shit; you take care of your shit; and we can hang out and fuck. Otherwise, forget it.
Apparently I’m both a cougar and a non-nurturing hard-ass.
I don’t think “cougar” was in use back when HOW STELLA GOT HER GROOVE BACK was published. But I felt it addressed the older woman-younger man phenomenon honestly and with humor, even if the real story it was based on later turned into a sordid tabloid-y mess.
I hate the word cougar. I hate the way we seem to need a predatory term, and a tv show to illustrate the, clearly titillating, phenomenon of older women dating younger men.
I haven’t seen the show, and didn’t really have any interest in it until this post. I might try to catch an episode to see if Hollywood has anything redemptive to add to the debate.
Hello, Cougar here. He’s 31, I’m 41. I’ve got kids, he doesn’t. We’re not “serious” but that leads to a lot of healthy behaviors that I think have taught me a lot about relationships: being myself, not trying to control someone else and accepting them, not trying to change them to fit my happily ever fantasy, having my own life. He’s pretty laid back, open minded–to me it’s more interests and temperaments that match. And as the first poster, I look a lot younger than I am, active, adventurous etc, so no one is really shocked. I don’t think it’s a “trend”, I know I’m certainly different than the rest of my suburban married friends in the carpool line at school, who are all for it, by the way!
OH, and I’ve never seen the show. Not interested. I don’t feel like it applies to me.
I’ve seen the show, it’s pretty one note; typical sitcom filled with clueless men and the women who tolerate them.
From my perspective (47) there is something REALLY satisfying about being pursued and caught by a man 10 years younger. Especially after being abandoned by a cheating husband. It’s sweet revenge even if X doesn’t know about it. Jilted women my age can likely get down on themselves, so having a gorgeous young lover, for whom even my lesbian friends are hot, is the best medicine. The older you get, age matters less. Just are you fit and are you fun?
So what is exactly is the cougar image PhDork?
I was under the impression that any woman who is 8 years or older than her boyfriend/husband is a cougar. Plenty of non-white have been called cougars (at least on E! and VH1).
I think that may be just your view on the the image, but not the general consensus. Although I have never heard a black woman refer to herself as a cougar, except for Vivica Fox.
Dirty, I was borrowing the NYT author’s definition: a woman over 35 in a relationship (of whatever sort) with a man who is 5 or more years younger.
I’ve only recently gotten cable, which may be why non-white “cougar” references are unknown to me. When I think cougar, the names and images bandied about are the Demi Moores, Kim Cattrals, and Courtney Coxes and Madonnas. White, slim, pretty, rich. No doubt my view is limited (it can’t help but be so), but even if the various “feature” pieces I’ve seen in MSM sources have focused on purty, and well-preserved white ladies.
Although I have never heard a black woman refer to herself as a cougar, except for Vivica Fox.
There’s an older Black gentleman, Mr. Tanner, that lives in our neighborhood that I’m friendly with. A few months back I saw Mr. Tanner at the grocery store with a “friend” of his. He’s in his late 70′s and the woman he was with announced that she was in her mid 80′s then asked me with a coy smile on her face as she touched my arm, “Doesn’t that make me a cougar?”
I am 38 and I have two FWBs who are younger than I am – one is 33 and the other is 29. These two relationships are warm, easy and fun. Sometimes we’ll just hang out and other times we hook up. (Not all three together, LOL, I mean me with either one of them.)
I’m particularly close to the 29-year old and we love each other, though not in a romantic sense. I can turn to both my FWBs when I’m feeling low and they will support me (and vice versa).
In the past I preferred dating older men (as in anywhere from 2 to 19 years older) but these days age is not much an issue to me. Though I draw the line at late-20s. Any younger and I simply don’t find them to be particularly interesting.
I hate the term cougar. Lables generally make me uncomfortable but this one really grates on me. I am not a cougar. I am a woman who happens to have satisfying relationships with younger men.
i cannot stand the discussion of “cougar” it is just another way to pin women into stereotypical categories that keep them from getting the respect they deserve. Instead of “hot attractive woman in her late 30′s” she’s a predatory animal who gets what she deserves when the 20 something uses her for sex and discards her.
Gee, well, she had it coming. She is over 30 and female-she no longer has any of the protection from society that younger “virginial” women have – use and discard as needed.
Where as when a man is 20 years older than a woman, he is just taking good care of her. He is not taking advantage, not stealing her youth.
Have dated and fallen for a man 8 years younger, I just wish people could be people. Maybe he and i would of lasted if society weren’t so fucking evil and considered me dirty because I am in my mid-thirties. He loved me but just could stand the mind bending reality of loving a woman eight years older. Cause, you know, its so WEIRD! Let’s make a lame-ass show about it with Courtney Cox. Cause gosh I am so out to use men that I am still single. Such evil users those cougar woman. Makes me want to puke.
guess who came out on top on the use,abuse, and loose on that one? Gee, yup, he bailed for an UGLY 26 year old. Still unmarried, still alone, and now I am bitter and pissed. I didn’t even know there was such a thing as a cougar when I started dating him, and I certainly never considered a 34 year old dating a 26 year old “predatory”. He was a lucky little fucker, and he knows it.