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	<title>Comments on: Well, Women Are Fighting To Be Heard</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/</link>
	<description>As narrated by the most charming and vicious women on the internet</description>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/comment-page-1/#comment-17441</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=11274#comment-17441</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Creating something takes a lot more effort than writing a bad review or a dismissive blog post.&quot; 

This statement in particular sticks in my craw. The idea that the act of writing bad reviews (or good ones!) is not &quot;creating something&quot; smacks of either sour grapes or deliberate obfuscation. Criticism of art, written or otherwise, can extend our understanding of a piece and often expands conversation about message(s) put forth by an artist/writer and the criticized work. Which is why I presume Ms. Gould included her rectified book review in her essay; She was &quot;creating something&quot; in her review that required more effort than a mere plot summary of the book.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Creating something takes a lot more effort than writing a bad review or a dismissive blog post.&#8221; </p>
<p>This statement in particular sticks in my craw. The idea that the act of writing bad reviews (or good ones!) is not &#8220;creating something&#8221; smacks of either sour grapes or deliberate obfuscation. Criticism of art, written or otherwise, can extend our understanding of a piece and often expands conversation about message(s) put forth by an artist/writer and the criticized work. Which is why I presume Ms. Gould included her rectified book review in her essay; She was &#8220;creating something&#8221; in her review that required more effort than a mere plot summary of the book.</p>
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		<title>By: bellacoker</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/comment-page-1/#comment-17406</link>
		<dc:creator>bellacoker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 03:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=11274#comment-17406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[*a w k w a r d*]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*a w k w a r d*</p>
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		<title>By: Natasha</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/comment-page-1/#comment-17398</link>
		<dc:creator>Natasha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=11274#comment-17398</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, interesting. Just as a general rhetorical device, I find that signing off any retort post with &quot;Good luck&quot; or &quot;Enjoy&quot; makes one look immature -- after all, Emily sought this site out, did she not?

Anyway, there are two major points being addressed in the original post: women-on-women dislike, and the lack of representation of all women in all lifestyles. There was also an added element, briefly alluded to, of sexism in the publishing industry. These elements are highly personalized, and so I really feel the author&#039;s privilege did need to be addressed in the piece. If the only hardship you&#039;ve come up against is being jealous of another female writer, you don&#039;t have much hardship.

I have to say that the article really did feel like a backwardly formed way to get back at Traister&#039;s non-criticism. It&#039;s good that Emily has an audience with which she can act out her personal slights. I guess the rest of us will just have to go get a book published to get &quot;our stories&quot; (scare quotes!) out there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, interesting. Just as a general rhetorical device, I find that signing off any retort post with &#8220;Good luck&#8221; or &#8220;Enjoy&#8221; makes one look immature &#8212; after all, Emily sought this site out, did she not?</p>
<p>Anyway, there are two major points being addressed in the original post: women-on-women dislike, and the lack of representation of all women in all lifestyles. There was also an added element, briefly alluded to, of sexism in the publishing industry. These elements are highly personalized, and so I really feel the author&#8217;s privilege did need to be addressed in the piece. If the only hardship you&#8217;ve come up against is being jealous of another female writer, you don&#8217;t have much hardship.</p>
<p>I have to say that the article really did feel like a backwardly formed way to get back at Traister&#8217;s non-criticism. It&#8217;s good that Emily has an audience with which she can act out her personal slights. I guess the rest of us will just have to go get a book published to get &#8220;our stories&#8221; (scare quotes!) out there.</p>
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		<title>By: Pilgrim Soul</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/comment-page-1/#comment-17397</link>
		<dc:creator>Pilgrim Soul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=11274#comment-17397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Who&#039;s having a comment war?  People have presented substantive points which you apparently don&#039;t feel you should have to answer, and you&#039;ve instead rather ineffectively argued against &quot;snideness&quot; by employing it yourself.

I can&#039;t say you&#039;ve much reassured me that you weren&#039;t overpersonalizing the issue!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who&#8217;s having a comment war?  People have presented substantive points which you apparently don&#8217;t feel you should have to answer, and you&#8217;ve instead rather ineffectively argued against &#8220;snideness&#8221; by employing it yourself.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t say you&#8217;ve much reassured me that you weren&#8217;t overpersonalizing the issue!</p>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/comment-page-1/#comment-17396</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=11274#comment-17396</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Again: I don&#039;t actually say, or think, that we are &quot;drifting towards the greater inclusion of female voices in most mainstream print.&quot;

I&#039;m not interested in having a comment war. I just wanted to set the record straight about this one thing and got tempted to preach on about some other pet peeves, like anonymity and pointless -- as opposed to pointed -- snideness. This was a mistake on my part!  I&#039;ll leave you guys to dissecting the ideas around this priveleged, expensively educated, &quot;snarky&quot; construct you&#039;ve imagined, and take my real self out of this conversation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again: I don&#8217;t actually say, or think, that we are &#8220;drifting towards the greater inclusion of female voices in most mainstream print.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not interested in having a comment war. I just wanted to set the record straight about this one thing and got tempted to preach on about some other pet peeves, like anonymity and pointless &#8212; as opposed to pointed &#8212; snideness. This was a mistake on my part!  I&#8217;ll leave you guys to dissecting the ideas around this priveleged, expensively educated, &#8220;snarky&#8221; construct you&#8217;ve imagined, and take my real self out of this conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel_in_WY</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/comment-page-1/#comment-17392</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel_in_WY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=11274#comment-17392</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I didn’t intend for my essay to be a definitive last word on this topic.&lt;/i&gt;

But there&#039;s a big difference between the definitive last word and directly addressing the main point of an essay with which you take issue.  As PS has already pointed out, you have yet to address Traister&#039;s main point, and instead mischaracterize it as a function of female pettiness. 

And FWIW, I find it deeply ironic that your snarky dismissal of the economic reality behind blogging anonymously is a more perfect reflection of your privilege than anyone could ask for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I didn’t intend for my essay to be a definitive last word on this topic.</i></p>
<p>But there&#8217;s a big difference between the definitive last word and directly addressing the main point of an essay with which you take issue.  As PS has already pointed out, you have yet to address Traister&#8217;s main point, and instead mischaracterize it as a function of female pettiness. </p>
<p>And FWIW, I find it deeply ironic that your snarky dismissal of the economic reality behind blogging anonymously is a more perfect reflection of your privilege than anyone could ask for.</p>
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		<title>By: Pilgrim Soul</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/comment-page-1/#comment-17390</link>
		<dc:creator>Pilgrim Soul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=11274#comment-17390</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, Emily, you certainly have more experience in the arena of being snide to people on public blogs, so I take at face value your claim that there is more to be lost.  So as to snideness: mea culpa.  I write a minor feminist blog on the internet; I didn&#039;t really think you&#039;d even bother to respond to someone like me.  As to what is gained, like a hundred people maybe read every post I write; we only have around 1000 visitors a day. 

I&#039;ll happily share my real name with you; I just can&#039;t do it publicly on the internet right now because I have to keep my day job since, as you note, I have no current income from my subpar writing in this forum.

In any event, you wrote a blog post that tried to make systemic claims about women.  I, again, take you at your word that it was not meant to be a &quot;definitive last word.&quot;  But I don&#039;t agree with your claims.  So it&#039;s not just a matter of investigating areas you don&#039;t explore.  

For example: I don&#039;t agree that we are drifting towards the greater inclusion of female voices in most mainstream print.  I don&#039;t agree that criticisms like Traister&#039;s are best described as critiques of &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt;.  I can&#039;t help but feel you&#039;ve personalized something that wasn&#039;t personal.  I get that you don&#039;t agree, and hell, you certainly don&#039;t have to.

I don&#039;t know you, Emily, as I say in the above.  But I think you&#039;ve misdiagnosed the problem, and though I think you write beautifully, I think that caused you to miss the point.  Are you seriously contending that the factors you list have nothing to do with why your work is recognized?  Understand that I am not saying that you can&#039;t write very well - you can.  What I am saying is that you lack an account of how you came to be published when others did not.  I assume you&#039;d say you were published on your own merits, and fair enough, but again: the content of &quot;merit&quot; doesn&#039;t strike me as politically neutral.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Emily, you certainly have more experience in the arena of being snide to people on public blogs, so I take at face value your claim that there is more to be lost.  So as to snideness: mea culpa.  I write a minor feminist blog on the internet; I didn&#8217;t really think you&#8217;d even bother to respond to someone like me.  As to what is gained, like a hundred people maybe read every post I write; we only have around 1000 visitors a day. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll happily share my real name with you; I just can&#8217;t do it publicly on the internet right now because I have to keep my day job since, as you note, I have no current income from my subpar writing in this forum.</p>
<p>In any event, you wrote a blog post that tried to make systemic claims about women.  I, again, take you at your word that it was not meant to be a &#8220;definitive last word.&#8221;  But I don&#8217;t agree with your claims.  So it&#8217;s not just a matter of investigating areas you don&#8217;t explore.  </p>
<p>For example: I don&#8217;t agree that we are drifting towards the greater inclusion of female voices in most mainstream print.  I don&#8217;t agree that criticisms like Traister&#8217;s are best described as critiques of <i>you</i>.  I can&#8217;t help but feel you&#8217;ve personalized something that wasn&#8217;t personal.  I get that you don&#8217;t agree, and hell, you certainly don&#8217;t have to.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know you, Emily, as I say in the above.  But I think you&#8217;ve misdiagnosed the problem, and though I think you write beautifully, I think that caused you to miss the point.  Are you seriously contending that the factors you list have nothing to do with why your work is recognized?  Understand that I am not saying that you can&#8217;t write very well &#8211; you can.  What I am saying is that you lack an account of how you came to be published when others did not.  I assume you&#8217;d say you were published on your own merits, and fair enough, but again: the content of &#8220;merit&#8221; doesn&#8217;t strike me as politically neutral.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/comment-page-1/#comment-17387</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=11274#comment-17387</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I didn&#039;t intend for my essay to be a definitive last word on this topic.  If you&#039;d like to investigate the areas I left unexplored, that would be welcome.  But I&#039;m not sure what you hope to accomplish by saying things like &quot;if this is her idea of trenchant social analysis – just write a blog, anyone’ll listen! – I’m not sure her skill with words is going to get her very far.&quot;  I understand why you think there&#039;s something to be gained by writing so snidely about me, or anyone, but I assure you that there&#039;s more to be lost.

As to your idea of what distinguishes me from other the bloggers who you say are my equals, but who haven&#039;t yet been rewarded by &quot;the powers that be&quot; -- my conventional attractiveness, my whiteness, my education, the city I live in -- please add to the list that I write under my own name. Your anonymity -- got it, you have a convenient excuse! -- shields you from your writing&#039;s consequences, and consequences can be good or bad. I can&#039;t help but think you&#039;d write differently if you had to stand behind what you&#039;ve written.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t intend for my essay to be a definitive last word on this topic.  If you&#8217;d like to investigate the areas I left unexplored, that would be welcome.  But I&#8217;m not sure what you hope to accomplish by saying things like &#8220;if this is her idea of trenchant social analysis – just write a blog, anyone’ll listen! – I’m not sure her skill with words is going to get her very far.&#8221;  I understand why you think there&#8217;s something to be gained by writing so snidely about me, or anyone, but I assure you that there&#8217;s more to be lost.</p>
<p>As to your idea of what distinguishes me from other the bloggers who you say are my equals, but who haven&#8217;t yet been rewarded by &#8220;the powers that be&#8221; &#8212; my conventional attractiveness, my whiteness, my education, the city I live in &#8212; please add to the list that I write under my own name. Your anonymity &#8212; got it, you have a convenient excuse! &#8212; shields you from your writing&#8217;s consequences, and consequences can be good or bad. I can&#8217;t help but think you&#8217;d write differently if you had to stand behind what you&#8217;ve written.</p>
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		<title>By: Pilgrim Soul</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/comment-page-1/#comment-17386</link>
		<dc:creator>Pilgrim Soul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:32:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=11274#comment-17386</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Emily - Well, you return to the sentiment at the end when you seem to suggest that women pull themselves up by the bootstraps and be contributors instead of haters.  

Your quoted retraction seemed to me quite qualified.  I see a lot of male bylines in n+1, for example, which is hardly written by &quot;dinosaurs.&quot;  I think we just disagree on how much structure is against this gradual drift towards equality.  Nevermind that merely incorporating a voice like yours (and I should say, mine - my background is not dissimilar to what I know of yours) wouldn&#039;t quite get us there.

I also quote the portion you say I&#039;ve missed.  I&#039;m not going to claim the above is a masterpiece; but as I point out above (and you don&#039;t respond to) your criticism of Traister was pretty dismissive too.  It seemed to me your piece didn&#039;t address the larger questions it ought to have because you were focussed on your view of her piece, which, I think, you mischaracterize not just a little bit.

As for the scare quotes &#039;round my name, I have to blog anonymously for reasons related to my day job.  But thanks for &quot;asking&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emily &#8211; Well, you return to the sentiment at the end when you seem to suggest that women pull themselves up by the bootstraps and be contributors instead of haters.  </p>
<p>Your quoted retraction seemed to me quite qualified.  I see a lot of male bylines in n+1, for example, which is hardly written by &#8220;dinosaurs.&#8221;  I think we just disagree on how much structure is against this gradual drift towards equality.  Nevermind that merely incorporating a voice like yours (and I should say, mine &#8211; my background is not dissimilar to what I know of yours) wouldn&#8217;t quite get us there.</p>
<p>I also quote the portion you say I&#8217;ve missed.  I&#8217;m not going to claim the above is a masterpiece; but as I point out above (and you don&#8217;t respond to) your criticism of Traister was pretty dismissive too.  It seemed to me your piece didn&#8217;t address the larger questions it ought to have because you were focussed on your view of her piece, which, I think, you mischaracterize not just a little bit.</p>
<p>As for the scare quotes &#8217;round my name, I have to blog anonymously for reasons related to my day job.  But thanks for &#8220;asking&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2009/10/28/emily-gould/comment-page-1/#comment-17384</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 20:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=11274#comment-17384</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But my argument is emphatically NOT &quot;just write a blog, anyone’ll listen!&quot;, &quot;Pilgrim Soul.&quot;  Via this piece I retracted this sentiment, which I&#039;d expressed earlier, and admitted that yes, there *is* limited space allotted to women&#039;s writing in mainstream, paying print publications: &quot;Of course, the preponderance of bylines in the most august–and the most high-paying–magazines and newspapers are still male. But as those dinosaurs fade into obscurity, the scales will naturally shift in women&#039;s favour. Unless, of course, they won&#039;t. It&#039;s just possible that they won&#039;t.&quot;  

Another part of the essay that you might have missed: &quot;Creating something takes a lot more effort than writing a bad review or a dismissive blog post.&quot;  Good luck eventually doing so; you certainly haven&#039;t here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But my argument is emphatically NOT &#8220;just write a blog, anyone’ll listen!&#8221;, &#8220;Pilgrim Soul.&#8221;  Via this piece I retracted this sentiment, which I&#8217;d expressed earlier, and admitted that yes, there *is* limited space allotted to women&#8217;s writing in mainstream, paying print publications: &#8220;Of course, the preponderance of bylines in the most august–and the most high-paying–magazines and newspapers are still male. But as those dinosaurs fade into obscurity, the scales will naturally shift in women&#8217;s favour. Unless, of course, they won&#8217;t. It&#8217;s just possible that they won&#8217;t.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Another part of the essay that you might have missed: &#8220;Creating something takes a lot more effort than writing a bad review or a dismissive blog post.&#8221;  Good luck eventually doing so; you certainly haven&#8217;t here.</p>
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