As someone who spends a lot of time reading, commenting, and writing online, I consider myself adept at arguing with people on the Internet. When I come across bigotry or ignorance or misinformation on the web, I enjoy educating, enlightening, refuting, and smackin’ down. But, as I was reminded during the holiday break, excellence in Internet discourse does not necessarily translate to excellence in in-person discussions.
Like PhDork, I was shellshocked by many things I saw and heard whilst staying at my parents’ house over Christmas break. I choose to surround myself with generally progressive, feminist, anti-racist folks online and off. Despite the fact that I spent over 18 years of my life there, I feel like an outsider when I return to my beloved hometown. I feel like an outsider in my own family. It’s not because anyone is cruel or unwelcoming. But my philosophies are completely foreign to most people in my family and some of my acquaintances and high school friends.
I had a wonderful time this year, but I became slightly weary after just 48 hours or so. The complaints about “illegal aliens” and the high school turning into the “United Nations,” the concern about my marital status and pity for my bare ring finger, the misguided jokes about zomgsocialism!1!!1 – it’s exhausting. Now, nearly half the offenses were committed by my grandparents. But still.
I wind up obsessing about these instances long after they’ve happened, wondering how I should have handled them. Because in the moment, I freeze. Dealing with bigotry in person is so different from dealing with it online. There is no time to type your talking points, gather your links, and organize your thoughts. It’s not that I remain silent, but I don’t think I ever make a dent with anyone. I am so used to the online format that I am taken off guard when I encounter foolishness at the kitchen table. And it’s easy to be brutally honest or harsh with a person online; you can just close your browser afterward and hope it got through. The same can’t be said for conversations with your godfather in his home.
Can any of you recommend strategies for combating bigotry when it’s (literally) staring you in the face? I’d love to hear some tips and success stories.
Oh GAWD. I had an uncle (now divorced from the family, thank Maude) who used to say the most hair-curling stuff about blacks, gays and people with AIDS that you can imagine.
My general rule is that people are allowed to talk shit in their own homes. You’re a racist asshole? Well, it’s your house, and I’ll probably be leaving. Come to my house and be a racist asshole, and you’ll Get Told (and probably kicked out).
On the occasions when there’s no escape and the conversation turns ugly, I will often resort to “You know, that really offends me. Can we change the subject, please?” If they want to pursue why I find it offensive, then I will Tell Them (and yes, it’s definitely harder in person than on-line). If not, hopefully they’ll have the good manners to just change topics.
I don’t really have this problem usually as my parents are pretty liberal in their way and I don’t see much of the extended family and when I do there are so many people to catch up on no one talks about anything real. But! At work I do! And here is what I do: I play dumb when they tell racist/sexist/classist jokes (“why is that funny?”) and also allow the “You’re an asshole” expression to take up residence on my face quite often.
i actually shut down when the conversation takes an offensive turn (as it often does with some members of my family). its become a sort of meditative practice…i go to my happy place and pretend that the racist, homophobic things that are being said in front of me are some sort terrible movie that i can fall in and out of sleep during.
its not right that i stand by silently but my family is white trash waspy and there is nothing worse than stirring up a fight in a nest made out of those things during the holidays when there’s too many breakable objects within reach and too many empty bottles of booze around. luckily we only see those people once every five years.
My tactic with relatives is a mild statement of disagreement. I don’t think I’m going to change anybody’s mind, but I think if I can at least get them to think twice before expressing their bigotry, or at least recognize that people they know and respect don’t all agree with them, I’ve made a little progress.
I like BeckySharper’s approach too – I think I might try it.
I’d love to hear some strategies to. I LOVE my in-laws, I want to have harmonious relations with them, but we might as well be from other planets. My FIL started talking about creationism on the ride home from the airport, later mentioned some work of revisionist history he’s reading about how all the Founders were hardcore capitalist Christians, raised questions about zomgsoshalisum!, and started a debate about “male headship” at the dinner table, despite my asking to change the subject and my attempting to leave the table (I was stuck in the corner, so I ended up standing up flustered before having to sit down sheepishly). I know I can’t change his mind, so I usually just try to change the subject, but he seems to interpret this as my “trying to shut him up.” I don’t think “educating” him is a possibility, but I’m really not sure what my strategy should be. I’m thinking next visit, I’ll just refuse. to. engage. If he starts talking about a subject he KNOWS we disagree about, I’ll just refuse to talk.
PSoul, that’s an excellent technique for dealing with smarmy bigots. The more they try to explain themselves, the worse they sound.
When I read PhDork’s piece, I thought of my mom. Now, my mom is a hard-core lefty. But..she has a racist streak that she would never admit to having. Every time I mention Michelle Obama, for instance, my mom makes a comment about the size of her backside. I don’t think that she has any sense that a black person can be attractive. And she doesn’t have much respect for the political effectiveness of the black community.
However. My mom is going on 80. And I feel that if/when I say something about these statements, I’m being disrespectful. So mostly, I either make a gentle remark in opposition or let it go. I don’t feel good about it but I’m not willing to cause a rift in the family over it. Sigh.
I have no problems with my immediate family but I come into contact with this sort of thing all the time both through some of BFs family, extended family, and work.
I alternate a lot of different strategies.
With Bf’s family I don’t engage unless something pretty blatant is said (example: his step father went on a rant during the campaign about Obama’s church and pastor, “why is he so angry, he hates white people” type of thing, and I simply let him go and then said, If I were an African American of his age I think I would have a lot of legitimate causes for anger don’t you? And he conceded that)
With my extended family I sort of let loose, otherwise I will just stew about it for MONTHS and end up way more angry at the person than if I had simply engaged. I do have a reputation as “touchy” and “difficult” as a result though but whatever.
With work I generally let it go, and like PS says, lots of blank looks and/or disgusted silences.
@funnyface: yeah sounds like you should just go to your happy place when he starts talking about stuff like that. The only reservation I’d have was if I ever had kids, I wouldn’t want him to go off like that in front of my impressionable children if that was at odds with how I was trying to raise them. Then I would try to really put my foot down.
my partner pointed out the other day that my family considers me a total Debbie Downer.
Example: last night at dinner, my brother started talking about what a “total asshole” Michael Ian Black is. He thinks this because Michael Ian Black once went on record as hating Tucker Max. I (two glasses of wine = questionable engagement) made a comment about how Black isn’t like that Tucker Max fellow, with the cerebral comedy, which of course made my brother call me a “bitch” and a “fucking bitch” several times, to which I responded “and you’re a rape apologist,” or “oh yeah let’s get girls drunk and then rape them hur hur hur.” Of course I was the one in trouble, because I “started it,” though of course I see finding rapists hilarious stand up dudes, brah! a far more offensive stance than being… um, against rape. But ya know.
So I’ve just decided that leaving the room to read Tamora Pierce is far better than engaging. My family gets angry if you try the playing dumb “why is it funny when a man rapes a woman, again?” thing, and they consider any “gentle” mention of their racism to be a smack in the face by their heathen socialist daughter, so I have decided to disengage. They’re also the type that finds getting up a leaving a huge problem, as they’re the type to prefer everyone to sit, stew, and pretend to get along instead of just leaving. So leaving usually makes more of a statement anyway. Last christmas when I left several hours early, my parents (if not brotherdouche) stopped talking about politics altogether around me. Thank god. Plus leaving usually just means “go home and hang out with my dog,” which is way more fun and intellectually stimulating than spending time with people who always make a point to use the president’s middle name…
I just made a list of all the shitty things they do. But I’ma stop. It’s no good for anyone and just makes me want to throw bricks through my brother’s window.
I definitely promote playing stupid in order to get the person to admit to their bigotry.
It’s become clear to me that a lot of people use bigoted statements as an attempt to bond with other members of the “in-group.” People just assume that everyone else agrees (that Obama is a socialist, and that socialism is bad, for instance) and will join in with them.
Over break, my friend E (who now lives in NYC) and I visited our mutual friend N, who still lives in the area where we all grew up. I feel like E and I have changed so much since we were 18, and don’t have much in common with N anymore. But our history almost dictates that we get together with her whenever we’re in town. So during our get-together, N started talking about another friend of hers who teaches at our high school. She said it was getting “really bad” at the high school and her friend hates teaching there. That’s where the “United Nations” comment came from. I tensed up but E asked, in a confused tone, “…is that a bad thing?” N definitely didn’t expect to be challenged on that, y’know? She struggled to explain herself but the topic soon changed. I was really proud of E and ashamed of my own non-reaction. It just shocks me sometimes – that realization that, wow, our friend is racist.
Because I know my Dad just does that shit to get a rise out of me, I’ve trained myself to just look at him blankly, kind of like he’s something really puzzling, and go, “Huh” and then go on with whatever conversation I was having as if he never said anything.
Just a short little, noise that in our family means, “Well, will you look at that, a talking dog,” or the equivalent. And you just can’t argue with “Huh,” without looking like an asshole. I mean, the person who said “Huh” didn’t call you a dick or even challenge your beliefs… Nor did they ignore you, they acknowledged you spoke, but not.
At least that’s the way it works in my family. I find that it works pretty well outside the family too. Most people just don’t know what to do with that. Outside the family I reserve it for times when it is neither the time nor place to attempt to educate someone.
see, SMC, thats when I would’ve put the dumb thing into effect. When she made the UN comment I would have said, “Oh wow! How great for those kids to be in a culturally diverse atmosphere, so much better than when we went there.” Missing the point on purpose is so effective and also amusing because then you watch them internally struggle with attempting to “explain” what they meant to you, (ie. see no, I really dislike brown people), which racist people hate to do because they dislike admitting that they are racist over letting it go not getting the chance to “bond” with you about what they believe is your common hatred of minorities.
I’m a firm believer in attacking hypocrisy, racism, and all societal ills where they lie. That said, it’s a delicate situation when it comes to immediate family and friends. Still, I would rather call out such a thing and be damned for it, than let it slide, only because that is the root of the problem when it comes to outlandish beliefs and blatant societal disrespect: no one challenges these things. No one stands up in front of people and says, “No, you’re wrong, and here’s why…” We tiptoe around these things, hoping that by not challenging them, they will simply “go away,” and we know that’s not true. President Obama didn’t win in a landslide — it’s because people we know, who hold these bigoted and misguided beliefs voted against him, based on ignorance.
In the end, it’s up to the individual. Perhaps you do not have the stomach for confrontation. Perhaps you don’t feel you can speak well for an opposing point of view. Whatever the reason, you must handle it the best way you know how.
My dear aunt age 79 invited her boyfriend age 80 to our holiday gathering, which is great. In fact, he is great too. But there was a whole lot of tip-toeing on all sides.
Actually, it was a big success, since my mother caved in and let them sleep at our place. She was against it, since her baby sister is not married to her boyfriend.
In my family we usually handle the Offensive Relatives in a couple of ways. There’s the Shutting Down mode, which we usually use on my hard-of-hearing racist-sexist-pervy grandfather who just wants a reaction – this year my mom and I went out and got crochet and cross-stitch supplies so we could ignore him totally.
Then there’s the Subvocal Snark, where we make a joke like “yeah, the Dominicans are really driving down values at the /walmart/, Grandma” that makes space for a subject change without a confrontation.
And finally there’s the faux-casual “Oh, come on, you know you can’t say that about an entire group of people” response. It doesn’t educate people who won’t be educated, it doesn’t do anything like adequately inform people of your views, but for most, it will alert the offenders to the idea that they can’t just say every thought they heard on Scarborough country without being challenged.
I really like the “your house, your rules, you asshole” approach though, too, because it makes the most room for skating past the mess.
I’m not afraid to confront people (politely), generally speaking, but the one-two punch of “holy shit did s/he just say that out loud?” and “omg my [loved one] is a [x]-ist” does result in l’esprit d’escalier far too often. For when I do freeze up, I find “why would you say that?” rather all-purpose–it’s all in the tone–and it gives you a chance to hear where the stupid is coming from and to formulate your reply.
With the SOSHULIZM! stuff (which I hear a lot, including from students), I usually ask people questions about what socialism is, what it means, etc. If they’re correctly able to define it, then I feel we can have an actual conversation and perhaps agree to disagree. If they don’t know wtf they’re on about (far more common), I find they sort of sputter out on their own, trying to articulate positions that collapse under the weight of their own illogic.
I like GeekGirls’ “huh,” too. The Dude’s dad is another one of those guys who likes to say assy things to fluster other people, and the “yes dear I heard you” response is about the only way to handle that. You can’t engage with someone who’s bullshitting to bullshit. Life’s too short.
I grew up in the Rust Belt, where everyone’s a Democrat and there won’t be any anti-”socialism” sentiments, but they can still be racist, anti-gay, etc. One day, I was talking to my grandmother on the phone, and she was making some anti-immigrant comments. I talk to her every week, and this was probably the third week in a row she’d made some comment about illegal immigrants. I’d somehow changed the subject before, but this time, I just blurted out something like “You’ve been watching too much Lou Dobbs”. I’m not even really sure where that came from – I’m actually surprised I didn’t say Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck or something. I was just trying to name a conservative commentator. But it must be so ingrained that “Lou Dobbs” = “anti-immigration” that my brain just came up with it. And it was the perfect thing to say. I think she realized that she DID start thinking this way only when she started watching Lou Dobbs more often. And she hasn’t said a thing about it since. And of course she won’t be watching Lou Dobbs anymore!
I don’t know if it would work in a crowd, or for other, more general issues, but I think in this case, it worked because I was blaming a specific MESSENGER, and not the RECIPIENT of the message.
I used to pick my battles and roll my eyes most of the time, but now that I have kids I just can’t do that. My family is pretty moderate, so it’s mostly mild sexism and body shaming that I have to deal with though occasional racist ignorance does come up. At first, I’d take it head on, but I’d often end up in why-can’t-you-just-lighten-up/it’s-a-free-country-don’t-oppress-my-freedom-of-speech kind of discussions. Now, if someone says something cringe inducing I turn to my 5-year old and explain slowly and in simple terms why what Grandpa said is not ok in our family, even if it’s generally over his head. I find it tends to shame the offender into silence and gets nods of agreement from others in the room. It gives me the opportunity to say my piece without direct confrontation, and also lets everyone hear in 101 terms why I find it offensive.
I even works if you don’t have a kid around; I’ve just turned to whomever is next to me and explained kinda wide-eyed and innocent like why I thought what X said was just wrong. Kind of use my neighbor as a kid proxy. Turns out I tend to be more articulate when I don’t have to look directly at the offensive jackass.
I like that, krismcn.
The casual, unexamined sexism really tries my patience and I don’t know if I can deal with it for another year. I don’t know if people are just unimaginative or bored out of their minds, but they cannot wrap their heads around a long-term relationship wherein the woman does anything but sit around waiting for the man to propose to her. I want to be sarcastic and mocking, but I figure no matter what I say I’ll be interpreted as a bitter gal who’s just angry she can’t get her guy to pop the question. I don’t know where people get off intruding on other people’s personal lives the way they do. And what if I were depressed that I don’t have an engagement ring on my finger? Why would they want to rub it in? It seems like no matter how I react, I lose, because people’s sexist assumptions are so ingrained.
Wow- I must say, these are much better tactics than my usual, voice-escalating biting sarcasm…which generally serves only to incense my Da..er, offensive relative and make them think I’M overreacting.
I HAVE however stolen from Shakeville, and used to great effect, a useful comeback for ‘that’s gay’ slurs: “Really, that [behavior, inanimate object, article of clothing] has sexual interest in a [thing] of the same gender? Interesting.”
Works wonderfully, and still allows me to be both confrontational and humorous.
Nowadays I try to avoid the hot button topics, especially now that Grampa has high blood pressure. Cause otherwise we end up arguing which is not good for him.
Still, hard to get over the time my uncle (in my grandparent’s house) said very racist things about First Nations people in front of my sister’s best friend, who is Métis (and who is practically a member of our family; she and my sister has been best friends since they were babies and sharing a crib at our house while her mom worked). There was just stunned, uncomfortable silence from everyone except Uncle Racist.
Harpies… I love you. The holiday with my family is like attending the Racist Republican National Convention of Bigots. I’m glad I’m not alone and I love hearing how you tackle these same problems. I believe it will eventually lead me to no longer attend family gatherings and that’s probably for the best.
There’s no point in arguing with people who blindly believe X, for the ignorant sake of Y. The have given up their rationality. Sad, really.
my most racist family member is my grandmother who when i was growing up always told me not to say anything about a person that i wouldn’t say to their face. so when she bitches about mexicans stealing jobs and arabs being terrorist i’ll ask her if she would feel comfortable saying that in front of (insert whatever friend/cousin/inlaw of that group). or i’ll say “be kind” which was another one of her favorite admonishments. works like a charm.
The kicker is when the kids are old enough to say something but young enough that the adults can’t yell at them.
Enter exhibit A: Grandma making a recist comment and 12yo son who says “Grandma, what do you mean by that? I don’t understand” (no coaching on my part, I swear).
Exhibit B: flustered Grandma attempting to explain her racist comment to puzzled 12yo boy.
Every so often I snap at my Mother in Law when she starts in on the CONSTANT diet bullshit. She leaves me alone for the most part since my husband ripped her a new one for calling me fat several years ago, but we have a friend with a tweener daughter who comes over and the most frequent comment I make is, “Do NOT give that child an eating disorder” or “No body shaming near tender ears.”
My parents are awesome in that even if they say something I do not agree with (usually my dad), they will let me rant incoherantly at them and then explain what they meant, which is usually a much more balanced point of view.
My brother, however, just gets on my nerves with his generally sweeping generalisations. (One young dude of nationality x nearly hit him with his scooter, therefor every person of nationality x is an illegal asshole who should never have been let in to the country. Never mind that they’re usually like, third generation)
When he shouts something random like: ALL THOSE DAMN POLISH PEOPLE STEALING MY JOB. I then point out, hey, our most awesome neighbour lady is Polish and not after his minimum wage job, so the ‘all’ part is not correct, if he hadn’t dropped out he wouldn’t have a minimum wage job to steal, etc.
I tried throwing my slipper at him every time he said something offensive, but that didn’t work very well…
krismcn, that’s brilliant. If I ever have kids, I imagine that the amount I spend putting up with my family’s bullshit will drop very quickly. I would never want to expose a child to their hate.
As for marriage, SarahMC, my partner (male, hetero) has told his parents that we weren’t getting married until gay marriage is legal in all 50 states. They have since left him alone entirely. They, of course, are liberal and enjoyable, and they think his solidarity is a valid reason to stay unmarried. My family has not yet started in on the marriage business, though I’ve been prepping them for years on my intent to stay single forever. We’ll see how they (gay marriage haters) react when they realize I wasn’t joking, and I start having to give excuses. “Marriage is a tool of the patriarchy” just will. not. fly. with those folks.
My partner is a lefty who (somehow) comes from a somewhat conservative family. The only issue with them, really, is homophobia. There’ve been a couple of incidents… his mum and I were talking and she said that she thought gay marriage ‘just wasn’t right.’ I just stared at her, totally stunned, because I actually didn’t expect it. She got really uncomfortable and apologized, and we’ve never talked about it again. Also, once her boyfriend used the word ‘faggot’ at the dinner table. I just said, “I’m sorry, what did you say?” and he got the message. He was an asshole and I was glad to see my mother in law break up with him.
My parents are very liberal, so it’s not a thing that ever comes up with my side of the family.
I just asked the boyfriend; he says at work, he just tells people to shut up. He’s in management so he gets to do that. At my work, I either try to explain a little (most common thing I’ve found is homophobia and people not understanding trans issues) or say to people when they make bigoted comments, “I don’t think that’s an appropriate thing to say,” and drop it.
If it’s someone I don’t think I have any chance of swaying, I generally just put on a stoic expression. That way if the person is saying something they know I don’t agree with just for the joy of seeing me get pissed off and dance around, I don’t have to waste my energy.
funnyface: Your FIL story raises some serious red flags with me, that guy’s sense of entitlement sounds dangerous.
MY brother and I are very close, but also very different. (Think city mouse vs. country mouse.) His biggest vice, imo, is to frequently refer to things as “gay.” (I think this is pretty small potatoes, considering some people’s families.)
We have reached an agreement: Every single time he calls something “gay” in front of me, I will call him out on it.
It helps that we are close, and while we used to fight about this issue, now if he calls forgets and calls something “gay” in front of my, he just sort of looks over expectantly.
Also, I wanted to say how much I love this thread. Thankfully my family (grandfather aside) is pretty liberal and also pretty rational so that if they do say something terrible, you can at least engage with them.
But people in the outside world? My, how they are terrible. So thanks for this long list of tricks.
And @Cimorene: Tamora Pierce! Also, Max Tucker is such a piece of garbage. I immediately loose all respect for anyone who finds him an acceptable human being, let alone humorous. Good luck with that brother of yours.
Cimorene’s family seems like mine. Saying something immediately is MUCH worse than stewing for months.
PilgrimSoul’s approach is mine, as well. I’m still in high school, and most of my classes are dominated by the type of boys who’d admire Tucker Max. My go-to phrase is “i don’t understand” accompanied by a stern look when i hear their offensive jokes.
I do engage every once in a while, though. In my health class we were going over rape when those same guys that shock me so much with their horrible sexist/rasist jokes decided to explain to the teacher WHY GIRLS GET RAPED. As soon as they said that IT’S THEIR OWN FAULT, DON’TCHAKNOW? i whipped around in my seat, called their statement ignorant at best and told them that they horrified and repulsed me.
It was a long time before they talked to me again, which is why i don’t look for times to engage. But when my blood is really boiling, i can’t just sit there.
SMC, you and I have discussed this very topic several times before, but I am shocked to see how many others have such similar situations during home visits. I’m from York, PA, which was immortalized on NPR, that bastion of liberal indoctrination, last fall for its “diverse” racial opinions:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95934562
Read a bit of this and you can guess what I encounter at home with my (white) family.
I have tried most of these strategeries from time to time over the years, and I am sorry to say that I’ve had between virtually no success and no success even getting my opinions heard. I don’t even try to engage my extremely conservative dad anymore, but he’s got me tagged as a socialist, a feminazi, and someone with “little feelings” that are way too easy for him to hurt, like that’s something I need to work on.
For my own entertainment, I have started pointing out his logical fallacies in a completely nonconfrontational way and laughing to myself when he doesn’t realize what I am doing. He was complaining about Donovan McNabb over Thanksgiving (for those who don’t know — he’s the quarterback of the Eagles, and he is black) for being a princess and bossing the management around, insisting on starting. Then, in the next paragraph, he started talking about Brett Favre (obviously, white) and how great it was when he told Green Bay to go suck it when they wouldn’t let him start. I tried to get him to reconcile those views, and of course he couldn’t do so because he knows by now that blatant racism will not resolve any discussion with me. Perhaps that is progress?
Anyway, after 20 years, he has now reached the point where he brings up incensing topics on purpose just to see what I will say, and he pick pick picks until he gets a reaction, even if it is a subject change. I was appalled last spring when he used the words “monkey” and “porch” to describe #44, but honestly, what can you do about that? I do use BeckyS’s “your house, your rules, but keep it to yourself at my house” strategy, but like some of you, I worry about what will happen when there are children in the picture. Their future dad and I completely agree that this sort of talk has no place in our childrearing, so I think my parents will be a little disappointed with the infrequency of our visits to the homeland.
I’m bringing my male/hetero partner to the hometown for the first time on Friday. Add a dash of familial alcoholism and a mildly abusive past to a very conservative (and politically active) family and I am extremely anxious. The family history makes actual discussion extremely loaded and unproductive, so my plan is to simply limit our conversations to non-political and non-religious topics, and refuse to accept bad behavior in the form of sexist/racist/homophobic “jokes”. I love my parents, but at the age of 30 am finally accepting that there are limits to the level of communication in which we can engage.
There are so many more of you/me out there than I expected!! Maybe we are the norm?
I had grown up knowing that one large chunk of my family was verrrry socially conservative, but recently I’ve learned that another huge chunk is too. I hadn’t realized this and in fact had spent the last several years wanting/trying to get closer to them. Now I’m not sure that’s either desirable or possible.
My responses over the years have varied greatly depending on who was saying stuff, how taken by surprise I was, how much I’d already listened to, etc. A couple of times I was so shocked at unexpected racist comments that I said, “You’re teasing, right?” They weren’t, of course, but the conversation stopped there.
My BIL is one of those people who loves to bait, and I seem to be his favorite target. There’s not much that seems to work with him; sometimes I pretend not to be listening at all and invent an errand or excuse to leave the house, which deprives him of his fun and gives me room to breathe. A few times I have yelled at him which earned me reproaches from whichever family patriarch was around at the time. Of course BIL loved that, but the last time it backfired on him because he had clearly gone to far and people shielded me from him for the next couple of days. Other times I have called his attention to the incongruity between the hateful political rhetoric he spouts (or quotes, more accurately, straight from the talk shows) and the uber-Christian he thinks he is, asking him how he reconciles the 2 clearly incompatible views. He had no answer for that.
Now I just mainly avoid him. They live several states away and I just don’t make the attempt to visit any more. Life’s too short to subject myself to that.
My SIL is extremely homophobic and seems to dislike and disrespect most other women in the world. I’ve called her on her homophobia before and told her that it hurts me when she talks like that about a group that includes some of my friends and relatives. This SIL loves me, so although she’s not happy that I called her on it, she has pretty much quit talking like that around me. When she gripes about other women (stuff like, “You know how women are” or “You know a bunch of women aren’t going to be able to get along”) I’ve said simply, “Geez, you must know the wrong women.”
My family is not bad, but we’re living in my husband’s family’s territory now, and some of them are BAD (racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, bla bla). So the question of what to say in those awkward moments never really came up for me until recently, and I’m ashamed to say I usually meet their comments with stunned silence. But after it happens, I always pick my brain for what I _should_ have said, and these are the best ideas I’ve been able to come up with so far:
“Well, I think that’s my cue to freshen up this drink/grab some dessert/head outside for a minute.”
“Why do you say that?”
“This must be really embarrassing for you, because _I’m_ American/a woman/an immigrant.”
Although I’m not sure I’d be brave enough to use that last one.
LaurJ:
I’m impressed by how good you are at setting boundaries.
I’m obviously coming into this way late, but I have a funny story to tell.
Someone was telling me about a business trip they took to Africa (don’t remember which country), and how it was “kinda scary behind around a bunch of black dudes.” Yeah, I dunno. So I just said “It’s only scary if you’re a racist!”
But since I live in Israel, I can get away with telling people anything when they offend me. I say things like “You’re a racist and you hate all non-Jews!” to people on a regular basis.
Israelis generally like arguing and don’t get offended by it, so I can say ridiculous things back to them when they offend me, but we’re still fine the next day.
I know that is totally unhelpful to your situation, but I guess my suggestion is to get Israeli relatives you can yell at???
Just a quick note on a good comment I’ve found when the marriage discussion comes up (if you’re in a heterosexual relationship). This is essentially to laugh and say ‘Yeah, well, ___ knows that proposing is a dumpable offence.” It could work even if you’re not currently in that kind of relationship as well: “Haha, well, I’ve always made it clear that proposing is a dumpable offence.” It’s a humorous way of making it clear that you’re not just saying that you don’t want to get married because no one has asked you, but that you actively want to remain unasked.
I’m so glad to have read this discussion because I’m often at a loss with how to deal with that kind of… uncouth behavior, particularly from one guy friend who I know says sexist crap just to get a rise out of me. (Which does leave me wondering why he is my friend). I usually roll my eyes and ignore those comments, which usually works. But now I have a couple other ideas of what to do Bwahaha… thanks ladies- especially to Pilgrim Soul and GeekGirlsRule!
Amazing thread! Wonderful to know so many share the same boat. I can say nothing at our holiday thing- my 65 y/o mother has moved in with her 75 y/o fiance, and so it is really not at all my family home. It’s the home of the fiance, the biggest “good ole boy” there ever was. He spent the entire day talking about his new “gay” reading glasses (they are very cool), and bragging about how his son wrote an essay on how The Catcher In The Rye is a “gay” book. Every thing they talk about is how white men can’t get ahead anymore. When I walked in, they admired my necklace and asked if it was a Christmas gift. I said no. Then he laughed and said “oh, so it’s a good girl gift. You did something good, then he came home with your good girl gift.” (i.e.- that I had performed well sexually and was being rewarded with gifts). I told them I had bought it for myself. What do you say to that kind of garbage? They are exactly the kind of people who cannot wrap their brains around any challenge of their worldview. There is no challenging. There is no leaving. And the worst part is they think that I’m young and naive for being liberal and not racist, and that I’ll grow out of it and into their ignorant, conservative hatred. I think maybe I might be able to get away with the wide eyed explaining to the neighbor thing. Thanks for the tip!
Gosh, I really feel for some of you on this. My family are basically good, but have some blind spots; luckily, they fear my interminable drunken rants.
The exception is my brother: there was a great conversation once where he informed me that he would have no responsibility for a child if his girlfriend got pregnant; it was *entirely* her problem.
I made the obvious protests, at which he informed me that I was naive and that all men thought like he did. Pointing out that I had been having sex for fifteen years (without being left with child) compared to his five or so didn’t help.
Luckily, at that point he recklessly asked my boyfriend and my sister’s boyfriend, who set him straight about what ‘all men’ thought. That was a pleasant, if passive, victory.
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