In my imagination, this is where Miss Manners writes her columns. Via joeke pieters @ Flickr.
From today’s Miss Manners column:
Dear Miss Manners:
I took the father of a young lady I would like to pursue to lunch a few months ago, seeking his permission and approval to date his daughter. After an encouraging lunch and conversation about our relationship, we decided that it would be best to wait until she was done with school for the year.
As we parted ways, I was instructed to wait until he told me it was okay to talk with her. Now, months later, I still haven’t heard anything.
Is it wrong to discuss this with him again? I don’t want to come across as impatient, as I certainly believe she is worth the wait, and I trust that he has her best interests in mind. How would you recommend approaching this conversation?
Yeah, I had to pick my jaw up off the floor, too. WTF? He took her father to lunch and asked if he could have permission to date the daughter? And they–the dude and the dad–decided together to wait until the school year was over for the dude to even talk to the daughter? Holy Patriarchy, Batman!
There are a few questions, that, if answered, would provide a much clearer picture of what’s going on here. Is the daughter attending high school? College? Are they from a conservative culture where prospective suitors usually seek a father’s permission first? If they’re from a traditional Indian or Muslim family, or even a Christian evangelical one, that might explain why the dude felt it was necessary to go to the dad, and why the dad apparently negotiated his daughter’s love life over a meal with a relative stranger.
Regardless, I found the whole thing pretty skeevy.
Miss Manners didn’t seem as skeeved as I was–she avoids the obvious “WTF?” response, presumably because of her exquisite politeness. (Exquisite politeness being one of the many areas in which Miss Manners and I differ.) She responds politely but pointedly:
What conversation? The one that starts with the premise that the father is willing and the daughter is eager, but somehow they have neglected to inform you?
Let us hope that the gentleman was charmed or amused or both by your use of the 19th-century formality of asking a father’s permission to court his daughter. Or perhaps you had rather hoped that the daughter was charmed — because one of the two has vetoed the idea. And even in Victorian times, as Miss Manners recalls, daughters would ultimately prevail in such matters.
I especially like the “Let us hope” line, which implies the distinct possibility that the father was skeeved rather than charmed by the dude’s bizarrely retro approach (as both DaddySharper and Bigstepdaddy would undoubtedly have been). Wielding her elegant blade, Miss Manners also deftly skewers the dude by pointing out that regardless of the approach or the conversation, the answer is clear: She’s just not that into you, dude. Now back the fuck off. I give the lady credit for being true to her nom de plume–she’s WAY more mannerly in her response than I would ever be.
I’m a man and my opinions are strictly my own, I don’t know what its like to be a woman or a girl. Enough disclaimers I hope! I tried this approach thinking, oh, this will be romantic, there’s even a folgers commercial on TV depicting this scene, and the Dad laughed at me. Then I realized I was in denial, that I was afraid she (she’s now my shero for other reasons, but at the time I wasn’t sure she would accept me). Old fashioned romantic behavior is best left to movies I begin to think, although carriage rides etc seem to be cool. Anyway, if I were a Dad approached by a suitor for my daughter I’d probably laugh too and say ‘son, why don’t you ask her’.
Yeah, Joe, I think that’s what most dads would do! Which is why I wondered if they were from a culture where going to the dad first is the right protocol–I think most modern American dads would find that approach very weird.
I told my husband long before we were married that if he asked my dad for permission to marry me it was a deal breaker.
I was surprised that a younger relative engaged only recently went through that ritual. It was only slightly mitigated by the fact that she lost her father a while back, and the fiance asked her mother.
I also find it absurdly pleasant that this young man seems to think the lady’s father has any idea what her preferences in suitors is. My father would be the first to tell you, during my teenagehood and now, that he has almost no hope in tracking my preferences in food, clothing, reading material, I’m pretty sure he would not take a stab at choosing my dates.
Also, why would anyone who actually wants a date take this approach? Just doing the math, you automatically double your chances of rejection, Cyrano.
Guys, they must have left out the paragraph about Miss Manners’ new Time Machine Mailbag. Clearly this letter is from 1915 when a young lady needed a signed note from a chaperone to receive mail callers in the dining room after supper.
It is my suspicion that there is a large age difference here because he referred to this woman as “a young lady”. I’ve neeeever been called that by someone less than 10 years older than I am. The way I picture this is that the letter-writer is older and also kind of a creeper (like the kind that things you smiling and being polite is a come-on). Perhaps the father was stifling his giggles the whole time, told his daughter, and they both laughed and moved on with their lives.
@baraqiel – I got the same idea. This guy is hella too old for the girl (the whole “wait until she finishes school” line?), knows the dad through some other avenue and asked him over lunch. Dad, crazy uncomfortable, says, “She’s still in school!” and the guy leaves the conversation thinking “He’ll give me a call when she graduates” while the dad leaves the conversation thinking “holy shit old men are skeeving on my daughter.”
This letter no doubt came to Miss Manners via The Wayback Machine. Quaint for its time, but now just strange. Even the romantic in me is put off by this idea in the 21st Century. Mind you, I called my wife’s father from Times Square on New Year’s Eve to ask his permission to marry her, but that might have been the Guinness, more than any idea of propriety.
I’m imagining a follow-up letter: “Dear Miss Manners, when I asked my sweet lady’s paternal unit if he would grant permission for us to have anal sex, he was curiously angry at me. Would you recommend that next time I merely inquire about his feelings on whether he would sanction frottage and/or cunnilingus?”
@baraqiel: I actually got the idea that this guy was a nerdy 15-19 year old who’d been reading too many 19th century novels and thought it would be cool to act like an “old-fashioned gentleman”. “Took the father” out to lunch could mean met him somewhere and used his allowance to buy him a sandwich.
This would actually be the less skeevy option, though, so maybe it’s wishful thinking.
–I think most modern American dads would find that approach very weird.
Thanks for making me feel welcome! Question .. how do you sort out good old fashioned and bad old fashioned romance?
Old fashioned romance designed to shower a [receptive] woman with attention and make it very clear you find her lovely and special (rather than ‘playing it cool’ or relying on casual hookups to eventually build into a relationship) = good.
Old fashioned romance that assumes a woman is a thing that is passed from father to Next Owner (husband) and disregards her agency and personhood (asking other people for permission to date her rather than her, ordering for her without her input or permission, crap like that) = bad.
To be honest, Joe, I’m not sure that there is a lot of “good” old-fashioned romance. The good old days weren’t so good for women, and most of those customs are kind of patronizing or infantilizing, if not outright overbearing. Personally, I don’t like having a dude order my meal at a restaurant when I’m sitting right there, or insist on driving me everywhere–I’m more than capable of doing both.
Even having the man pay for dinner–which a hell of a lot of women still expect–is fraught because plenty of men (and women) still think it entitles the man to sex or creates some obligation on the woman’s part.
The traditional trappings I do like are sending flowers or love letters, but really, those are just kind and romantic gestures, and IMO, both sexes should make them (I have sent flowers to my dude on Valentine’s Day, and send cards, gifts, too).
@SOALG
AWESOME! And especially fitting given that in some of the subcultures where this sort of behavior would be accepted there is also the prevailing idea of no vag sex before marriage. Which leads to higher oral/anal rates.
Yeah, “old fashioned romance” to me sounds like code for “oppressive cliche” (asking Pa) or “ridiculous cinematic fantasy that would never play in real life” (barging into the wedding at the crucial “speak now or forever hold your peace” moment).
The mind boggles. I am happy that Miss Manners put that Etch-A-Sketch in his place (in her own fashion). So many of the advice columns, etc. make me gag with all the misogyny floating around that it’s nice to see one of the creeps well and truly owned.
Unbelievable. What a fucking tool. The dad probably did tell the daughter and she was probably GROSSED THE FUCK OUT.
@soalg: lol!
Still another possibility that nobody here in all of their worldly snarkiness seems capable of considering, and one that I think is more likely… If he’s not from an ultra conservative cultural or religious background, the guy is just completely socially inept. I feel sorry for him more than anything.
@Dave – Socially inept or not, this guy is proceeding under the assumption that the woman in question is not or cannot be capable of making her own choices or running her own life. I don’t feel sorry for him; he’s not entitled to date anyone (or anyone’s daughter, as the case appears to be).
Uh,” Dave,” is it? This might be my just my worldly snarkiness talking, but I don’t think anyone needed to point out that the guy is completely socially inept. That’s crystal clear. In fact, that’s pretty much the point of the post. And I can’t pity someone whose solution to his own problem is “oh well, I’ll just ignore her thoughts and feelings.”
@Dave: He may be socially inept, but in this case, his ineptitude is taking the form of treating a woman as though she’s someone else’s property.
Do you also feel sorry that the woman is being treated that way? Or is your sympathy reserved for the dude?
@PhDork – So remember that post you did a couple days back? Valiant effort, but I guess doomed to failure…
Egads.
And I hate that Folgers commercial, natch.
To be honest, Joe, I’m not sure that there is a lot of “good” old-fashioned romance. The good old days weren’t so good for women.
I couldn’t agree more, as a dude even this coming Sunday this guilt comes over me that I should send this, send that (sorry Mom!) I don’t know how girls are socialized with Valentines Day anymore, but as a boy in the 60s and early 70s we were taught conflicting things (I guess Im going with Valentines as a rather old fashioned holiday), we were taught yes Mom and Sis get them! But ones from girls in class were.. I hate to say icky.. I begin to see that both girls and boys back then were being socialized a certain way.
@Joe: Ugh, yeah, I agree about Valentine’s Day being used to send a lot of bad/conflicting messages. How were the valentines that the girls sent “icky?”
Miss Manners is my hero. She delivers a put-down like no one else, the kind that are like a stab to the jugular that you don’t even feel until your ankles are awash in your own blood. (Sorry if you’re eating lunch.) And her advice is common-sense and almost always right on.
It sounds to me like the guy here was more comfortable talking to men than to women, which in itself is not a great start to a relationship.
Joe, like all girls I’ve been socialized to expect to be lavished with meaningless gifts from my partner on Valentines Day. A few years ago I got angry with my boyfriend (we’ve been together 7 years now) because he didn’t send anything to my office as an expression of his love. All the other women with boyfriends or husbands got flowers or candy! But after I got into feminism I realized my expectation was unfair and sexist. I never send him anything on Valentines Day; my responsibility as a woman is to buy special lingerie and “give” him the sex, right? I think my boyf still thinks I’m going to be hurt if he doesn’t play his role, but at this point neither of us buys into that set-up and we’re both happy.
How were the valentines that the girls sent “icky?
By the way I don’t speak for all boys even from that time period (Im 56). Sarah I used to think Valentines was harmless fun, but you and Becky (my favorite harpy, yes Ive been reading for a time, sell me a tee-shirt!) reveal the dark side of the hobby. I mean beyond crass commercialism, which I know as a man I can’t even piss without reading in public washrooms. But its symbolic maybe of so much more thats wrong with us all today.
I was brought up confused by girls, because they were the other ones we boys didn’t play with or pick for teams, then they became the ones we were supposed to chase or date etc. Its hilarious now because back then we were all in thick glasses, huge braces, and everyones worst highschool yearbook nightmare. You all have helped open my eyes some to what was actually going on. Yesterdays icky may be todays slutty? I’m not sure.
Joe, I suspect that where boys and girls are concerned, there’s been something of a cultural shift between when you went to school and when I did (the 80s). Yes, there was some “girls are who you chase and think have cooties” but by and large, girls and boys were treated more equally and had more platonic friendships. Certainly most of the people I know in their 50s and 60s–not to make you feel old, but you’re roughly the same age as my parents–have expressed surprise that in high school I had many male friends who I spent time with (alone!) who were just friends, not dates. I think there’s been a really positive change in gender relations that way.
Which isn’t to say that everything’s perfect, b/c yes, there are still all kinds of bad or mixed messages being delivered to teens and young people about dating/sex/relationships. But in general, I think things are much more egalitarian and blended than they used to be.
As for “yesterday’s icky may be today’s slutty”….welllll…I’m not a fan of the word “slutty”, and I doubt the girls were sending you slutty Valentines. But yes, they were probably sending them because they were taught that it was cute and romantic and that’s what girls were supposed to be, just as today’s girls are often told that they should be cute and sexxxy.
Re: “slutty”
It reminds me of how Betty told Sally (on Mad Men) “You don’t kiss boys. Boys kiss you.”
Being “socially inept” is frankly no excuse to treat a woman as an unthinking possession of her father. I am so tired of mens bad behavior being excused simply because they are “socially inept” or “don’t know how to talk to women.” Fucking give me a break. Does the man in question live in this world? Then NO EXCUSE.
You don’t kiss boys. Boys kiss you.
Otherwise you’re slutty, right?
[head/desk]
I’m too old for this crowd, gaa! BE IN BY TEN! Glad its loosened up then, I have a teen boy but he tells me nothing at all, even though I try not be a distant parent. I think he lives on FB
Joe, you should get on FB yourself. Make a profile for you and force your son to friend you so you can see his page. That’ll tell you way more than he will.
Also, if you have a FB profile, you can become a fan of this site on our special FB page…
@Dave:
What do you think the cure for this kind of gross social ineptness is?
I think it’s recognizing that you have a problem and practicing. The tone of this gentleman’s letter makes me think that he hasn’t realized that the underlying problem is his to fix.
Also, if you have a FB profile, you can become a fan of this site on our special FB page…
The Harpies are on FB? Far out as we boomers say, gotta link? As for the son, I don’t want to pry, he’s a freshman at a really good small private lib arts school and seems to have it together. All the girls there though are career minded!
Yep, we’re on FB: http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Pursuit-of-Harpyness/469562165696?ref=ts
@bluebears: Totally! That’s all I’ve got really.
This reminds me of the dude who asked the woman sitting next to me for permission to read my shirt. In this case, he couldn’t find a male who was my default owner, so he just asked the nearest person, NOT ME, for permission to stare at my chest.
He had spent the previous 20 minutes having a fairly animated conversation from the wall across from where we were tabling, so “socially inept” probably doesn’t go far enough. Still, I have never felt more like a thing than then.
Yep, we’re on FB: http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Pursuit-of-Harpyness/469562165696?ref=ts
Thanks! This is a great blog
I remember reading about Judith Martin in journalism school, and how she used to cover the White House back before she became Miss Manners. They used to keep women in the balcony away from the so-called more serious male journalists at press conferences, and the male journalists would often get better interviews with the male politicians because they would join them in smoking rooms or accost them in the men’s room. She and other women in the business agitated for equal treatment of male and female journalists. So yes, I’d say she has some feminist street cred. And her answer to that gentle reader was perfect.
Disgusting.
The one thing, ONE thing my ex husband did correctly was TELL my parents we were getting married. He didn’t ask, he was informing because I had already told him mother wanted me to wait for many years before marriage. I recall mom crying and ranting that she did not give their (mom and dad) consent and I happily sat back and watched the battle-royal that took place. Yes I am aware I am horrid for letting someone else fight that fight but at the time I refused to be in it alone.
I hope that dude figures his shit out before he has children.
@BeckySharper and Joe
Being in school in the 90′s and 2000′s I recall that the boys were taught not to really pay attention to Valentines day at all and we the girls are the ones who gave the candy and cards. In High School I recall my first boyfriend commenting, “Of course I got you nothing! I remember all that feminism shit we got taught and I didn’t want to demean you.” AKA he was a cheap fuck and didn’t want to even write me a card. Most of the High School relationships I saw were like this. They claimed to be respecting so they ignored it all together and the girls pitched fits until everyone figured out were everyone stood.
I like the Mexico take on the holiday better. It’s “Friendship day” so everyone gives everyone something nice like compliments or little candies.
I don’t know, when I was in school in the 90s, everyone brought in valentines for everyone and everyone was excited about the chocolate. I brought cards in through high school — I’d get good chocolates and tape them to holographic grocery store cards for Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings and everyone liked them and would request their favorite character.
But then, Valentine’s Day is one of my antifeminist guilty pleasures. I just find it cute and heartwarming.
@baraqiel
Oh, don’t get me wrong the boys brought in shit too but they were more along the lines of, “cool, candy.” I recall the girls being the ones who would see if Matt or Joey or Chris gave them a valentine. The boys didn’t care who got them what as long as candy was attached. And mother kept a few of my valentines cards for me every year and I recall picking out the store cards and writting everyones names. The cards I had all had nice “adult” hand writting which makes me suspect that their
moms wrote them for them.
@Ocean_breeze – “I recall the girls being the ones who would see if Matt or Joey or Chris gave them a valentine.”
Yeah, I went to one of those “sensitive” elementary schools where it was required that everyone either not bring stuff in or bring stuff in for the whole class. If Matt, Joey, and Chris were giving extracurricular valentines, I was oblivious to it…like I was to 99% of social interaction in grade school
@ baraqiel
I remember paying attention because it made no sense. EVERYONE got one. But the, “ohhhh guess who I got a valentine from?” did make me laugh even at that age because I was always taught it was Friendship day and not Love day.
Amazing that even in third grade the idea of finding some hidden meaning in every male gesture was still there.
Someone needs to start a snarky feminist advice column. I’d do it myself, but I don’t think I’m snarky enough…
Someone needs to start a snarky feminist advice column. I’d do it myself, but I don’t think I’m snarky enough…
You know, every time I read Miss Manners and Dear Abby and the Dear Carolyn advice columns in the paper, I spend inordinate amounts of time responding to the letters in my imagination. Funny thing, the answers really frequently involve “What you need to do if find and embrace feminism! It will solve all your problems!”
I’ve often wanted to write a snarky feminist advice column, but don’t think I can write enough to support an entire blog.