In my imagination, this is where Miss Manners writes her columns. Via joeke pieters @ Flickr.
From today’s Miss Manners column:
Dear Miss Manners:
I took the father of a young lady I would like to pursue to lunch a few months ago, seeking his permission and approval to date his daughter. After an encouraging lunch and conversation about our relationship, we decided that it would be best to wait until she was done with school for the year.
As we parted ways, I was instructed to wait until he told me it was okay to talk with her. Now, months later, I still haven’t heard anything.
Is it wrong to discuss this with him again? I don’t want to come across as impatient, as I certainly believe she is worth the wait, and I trust that he has her best interests in mind. How would you recommend approaching this conversation?
Yeah, I had to pick my jaw up off the floor, too. WTF? He took her father to lunch and asked if he could have permission to date the daughter? And they–the dude and the dad–decided together to wait until the school year was over for the dude to even talk to the daughter? Holy Patriarchy, Batman!
There are a few questions, that, if answered, would provide a much clearer picture of what’s going on here. Is the daughter attending high school? College? Are they from a conservative culture where prospective suitors usually seek a father’s permission first? If they’re from a traditional Indian or Muslim family, or even a Christian evangelical one, that might explain why the dude felt it was necessary to go to the dad, and why the dad apparently negotiated his daughter’s love life over a meal with a relative stranger.
Regardless, I found the whole thing pretty skeevy.
Miss Manners didn’t seem as skeeved as I was–she avoids the obvious “WTF?” response, presumably because of her exquisite politeness. (Exquisite politeness being one of the many areas in which Miss Manners and I differ.) She responds politely but pointedly:
What conversation? The one that starts with the premise that the father is willing and the daughter is eager, but somehow they have neglected to inform you?
Let us hope that the gentleman was charmed or amused or both by your use of the 19th-century formality of asking a father’s permission to court his daughter. Or perhaps you had rather hoped that the daughter was charmed — because one of the two has vetoed the idea. And even in Victorian times, as Miss Manners recalls, daughters would ultimately prevail in such matters.
I especially like the “Let us hope” line, which implies the distinct possibility that the father was skeeved rather than charmed by the dude’s bizarrely retro approach (as both DaddySharper and Bigstepdaddy would undoubtedly have been). Wielding her elegant blade, Miss Manners also deftly skewers the dude by pointing out that regardless of the approach or the conversation, the answer is clear: She’s just not that into you, dude. Now back the fuck off. I give the lady credit for being true to her nom de plume–she’s WAY more mannerly in her response than I would ever be.
The one thing, ONE thing my ex husband did correctly was TELL my parents we were getting married (ocean)
Thats the ticket! I know I’m an old timer (I saw the Beatles on Ed Sullivan, who used to work in David Lettermans theater), but in my day you did’nt even have to tell them, you eloped and they found out after it was too late! Question. What is ‘snarky’
@bella – I’ve wanted to write a snarky feminist advice column but I worry I wouldn’t get any letters!
@Joe re: snark
Combination of “snide” and “remark”. Sarcastic comment(s).
Also snarky (adj.) and snarkily (adv.)
Also, I would say that Becky’s advice to friend your son on FB is not great advice.
I don’t do it. My daughter’s 17, close to your son’s age. I’d rather give her some space to explore her own ideas and interactions than remember that I am virtually hovering. Also, she can’t control the comments her friends make, and their comments don’t always reflect on her. Same goes for my 15 yo son.
Combination of “snide” and “remark”. Sarcastic comment(s).
Thank you Rod and sorry for the 101 nature of the question, I am trying to educate myself and I am a feminist definitely, the world needs all its citizens equally. Snarky seems to inject a bit of eye-winking humor also that perhaps is lost on some?
Also snarky (adj.) and snarkily (adv.)Also, I would say that Becky’s advice to friend your son on FB is not great advice.
Well I think Becky was responding to my lament that I knew very little of my 19 yearolds doings, and for that I am grateful for any help. I do have access to his Flickr so can see his pictures he takes. I try to remember what it was like in college, sounds like your kids are well adjusted. I HOPE mine is too.
@Joe – For what it’s worth, my mother (who comments here as mischiefmanager) is my facebook friend and it’s been fine — but then again, I’m very straight-edge for a college student and also very open with her. So, it’s not always a disaster, but you’ve got to judge on your own situation.
@rodriguez: Sorry, but I stand by that advice. When you’re a minor, and doing something in a public forum–which is what Facebook is–it’s not a violation of your privacy for your parents to see it.
My father and his wife have absolutely no idea what their sons–my little brothers–are doing day to day. They always say to me, “How do you KNOW that?” when my brothers come up in conversation, and I’ll say “It’s on Facebook.” Their friends see it, their relatives see it, prospective employers or admissions counselors will see it…but their parents shouldn’t? For parents to be that ignorant about what their children are doing and putting out in public is just plain bad parenting, IMO.
@Becky what you say is true about employers and counselors etc, but what they see (these others) is exactly what a parent can see, without friending. I suppose the hair gets split over how public is public, and how locked down the FB (or twitter or what have you) accounts are.
I think that shades into a tech discussion, not so much a parenting one, especially when the kids are as old as mine and Joe’s are. It’s parenting in the sense that it’s for the parent to explore and discuss the tech issues with the child as far as they are able.
Re: your family’s example
ignorant about what their children are doing and putting out in public is not the same as not friending your child,
and
(Not being FB friends with your kids) /= bad parenting
Clearly Joe needs to asses what’s best for his kid given their relationship. He says his son is 19. I don’t think it’s a parent’s place to force a friendship with their child in the same way that a child has friendships with their peers. It depends on who Joeson’s other FB friends are. Mom? Grandma? At Joeson’s invitation? Ok, Dad too, then. Otherwise, not so much.
I don’t see how not being FB friends with your adult child = bad parenting. Joe’s kid is 19. If you want a closer relationship with your child I think there are better ways to go about forging it than simply watching what they do on FB.
Now, if you don’t know what your 13 year old child is doing online that’s a whole different story.
I think it matters less if it’s an adult child, like Joe’s son, although I still think if you want to friend your kids on Facebook, it’s a reasonable request unless the relationship is really busted.
If your kid is a minor, in your house, you should be able to monitor all their on-line activity, IMO, including Facebook, blogs, etc.
@becky ok so for me in this sentence you should be able to monitor all their on-line activity the accent is on able.
Here’s my experience, FWIW:
Of course I am able, I just don’t monitor it all.
It’s grey: my son’s 15, exactly in the middle, and (sorta?) mature. I look over his shoulder (POS! Joe look up that acronym), and I am his tech support. But I don’t friend him. As for my daughter, also a minor in my house, for me it’s not grey. She gets her own space. We talk about tech issues.
There was a time when I outlawed certain sites and monitored devart and whatnot. But, at 15 & 17, for me and my kids, those days are gone.
@rodriguez: Yeah, I agree. I wouldn’t be inclined to police the kid’s every move–to a certain extent you have to trust your kids. But it also depends on the kid. If your kid is troubled or depressed or you suspect drug use, you’d probably check up a lot more often.
Personally, I find that a lot of parents who say “Oh, I don’t need to monitor” or “I wouldn’t violate my kids’ privacy like that” really mean: “because I might find something that troubles me and I wouldn’t know what to do, so I’d rather not know.” Plenty of ostriches with their heads in the sand, esp. in the suburbs where I grew up.
really means: “because I might find something that troubles me and I wouldn’t know what to do, so I’d rather not know.” Plenty of ostriches with their heads in the sand
so true
What I DO find troubling, and maybe your kids/family too, are the mysterious charges on the Visa! You know… the oh mom/dad, I get all my music free! Except for this 50 bucks to I-tunes, whats THAT! etc. So there is definitely secrecy.
another post, another time: should we pay for music or does music want to be free? If all music is free, then what happens to musicians?
baraqiel: Lol, I’m completely comfortable with giving unsolicited advice.
I just wanted to thank everyone who gave me ideas, I’ve actually had a talk with Nathan about this (home this weekend from college in Kentucky) and while he turned visibly pale when I suggested he ‘friend’ me on FB, I took all your suggestions about reminding him that I do have a right to know while he still ‘lives’ with me. Thusly, we had a better talk. So Becky, Rod, Sarah, Bara, and all others .. THANK YOU
[...] day after I wrote about Miss Manners’ takedown of a dude who consulted a woman’s father before asking her out, the UK’s Daily Mail ran [...]
I spent the past couple hours reading her column. It is terrific! I was especially pleased at her publishing a letter written by a gay couple who had adopted a child: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/01/AR2009120103663.html
I always wished my mom would do a little more snooping. Back in pre-Facebook toys, I’d actually tape paper letters from friends open on my walls, or leave my diary out (open). I never cleared the browser history of pro-ana sites.
I think online is just one expression of your child’s emotions/activities/thoughts. My mom wasn’t paying attention – period. I think it varies by kid, but I was trying to get an adult to help, so a little bit of notice would have gone a long way. I still don’t think policing me would have been helpful at building a trusting relationship though (maybe just taking an interest/paying attention.)