I am completely obsessed with this post by Chally and the comments on it over on Feministe. Entitled “Dear USians on the Internet,” here’s the money shot:
USian racial dynamics do not translate anywhere else on the planet. Hence their being called USian racial dynamics. No one else has the precise history you do, that unique racial make-up, those particular constructions of what those identities mean – things that ought to be respected. Likewise, this stuff works differently in other countries because your experiences don’t magically melt over into and obliterate ours. Do not, do not, ever try erase or modify our experiences of racism, Indigenous experiences in particular, by framing my country’s appalling racist history in USian terms. Have some respect for the stuff other people have to deal with every day, some basic consideration of where we’ve been. That means sometimes people are going to be uncomfortable with the use of terms that are benign or even positive to you, like ‘person of colour’ (because it’s often considered a term particular to the USian context, because it indicates a sense of alliance that isn’t universal, stuff like that). Sometimes you are going to be uncomfortable with such non-white-shaped cultural aspects in other countries. It is not cool to force your ideas about race and racism on us and in doing so alter and damage our cultures, our strategies of resistance, so that you’re more comfortable. I seriously don’t know how you stomach doing that.
Obviously, the post is a rant, and to that extent I can see some people getting upset about tone. In fact, I’m having, as I type this, second thoughts about posting it here, because while I bet a lot of you will understand, my experience as a non-American living in America makes me wary of even bringing up this subject, let alone introducing it in strong language. So let’s not talk about tone.
Let’s talk, instead, about the epistemological consequences of power. Because I think you can see how one could reframe the above passage to be about gender, race, or sexual preference, or just about any of the axes along which people form associations and identity. Because I think you know already that the fact is that categories of knowledge are not neutral, but are constructed for and taught to us by the powerful. I think you know that sometimes, when you’re raised thinking and speaking a particular way to people who share some quality with you, that when you have the power even your very way of speaking can become exclusionary to someone from another background.
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about the issue Chally raises, both because I am in all likelihood going to be (somewhat unwillingly) back in Canada six months from now, and because I am wondering if that’s basically going to cut me out of internet feminist discourse – and also the kind of magazines and writing I adore – for good. See, while I’m here, I often feel like I’m “fronting” as an American – while I’m told I have an immediately identifiable accent (!%!&?!), most of the time I’m able to talk as if the society of primary concern to me were America, and I talk about American culture, within the constraints of American timeframes. Living in America has been an adventure in what some might call “passing” for me – I’ve never lived in such a dominant culture before. And it feels – and I know how ridiculous this sounds – like giving up a privilege when I go.
Small things nonetheless keep me aware of how I’m Not From Here. Awhile back when I was putting together a writing sample for what now will likely be a slew of unsuccessful MFA apps (the 1% odds make it hard for me to take personally) I had someone comment on them. About one he said: if you’re going to set this in Canada, you’d best be up front about it, people should be made aware it isn’t the U.S. And since then I’ve been nursing this nagging feeling that maybe I can’t make it here, anyway.
Que pensez-vous, commentariat? Particularly non-Americans…
Well I’ve never said USian and wouldn’t know how, but I don’t see the point of focusing on that word.
I don’t have much experience traveling outside the US but I did study abroad in Australia, which was when I became aware of the world’s US-centrism. Sure, every country might think it’s the best, but I didn’t see the presidents of France or Argentina on the front page of the newspapers every morning. I saw George W. Bush.
For me the problem with the US on the internet (rather than in the broader cultural context addressed elsewhere) is that the US is automatically taken to be the default. I hesitate to go so far as to consider this full-blown privilege, but there are certainly points of contact.
The part you pulled out about racial dynamics reminded me of an offshoot of a recent discussion in media fandom, where a well-meaning US person suggested to a British woman (not me, though I am British) that perhaps when talking about a British show with other British people about some of the British-context-specific material therein, she ought to also acknowledge and discuss adjacent conversations being had with and among USians about how they considered the show to be failing at a decent portrayal of USian race issues. (Some of which were pertinent, and some of which would have benefitted from analysis of how the show reflects British racial issues. Being British.) And if she didn’t acknowledge that USian race conversation, then she was wilfully ignoring an issue that rightfully should take precedence over the depiction of homegrown British issues in a homegrown British TV programme.
Agreed, Pilgrim Soul. The US has, at least in the last century or so, done its best to dominate global discourse, and has crushed a lot of toes. I find such arrogance infuriating, particularly considering the country is an amalgam of pretty much every culture on earth, and the original cultures were either eradicated or put on reservations. All the same, I get annoyed with the eagerness of every other country to immediately pile on the US and point fingers and blame whenever things go wrong.
I went over and read all of Chally’s post, and I think she’s right on. I don’t know jack about most country’s internal workings (culture, history, government, etc), and though I’m from the US I see no reason to think my country’s way is any more amazing. I was raised to think this way, and when I talk with someone from somewhere else, I just assume I’m coming from a place of zero and start there.
I do think Canadians get blasted with a lot of US culture, constantly, and I get the feeling at times it is like trying to drink out of one’s own faucet, while a firehose is simultaneously shooting into your little stream. You’ll get your drink, but it’s hard to separate out which water you’re drinking.
If I was Canadian, I suspect I’d be having quite a few rants about the US everything pouring all over my own heritage, and just wanting to say “stop for a minute so I can breathe!”.
NZer speaking, here. I’m Pakeha, so I can’t speak for Maori or any other people of colour who are marginalised by ‘USian’ discourse, but Chally’s post really struck a chord with me. I think picking on the tone is disinegenous and a way to avoid having to examine your own privilege/power as an American. I found her tone to be the perfect mix of exasperation and sarcasm – which is exactly the way the situation makes me, as a non-American, feel. I recognise that it isn’t some vast conspiracy or even individually purposive, but the blindness to other cultures simultaneously amuses me and makes me want to scream/rant.
I’m an internet/media researcher and feminist, and every.single.day. I run up against US-centricism in tech and fem. blogs, as well as in a lot of internet/media research written by poeple who should really know better. It takes so many forms I don’t even know how to begin to catalogue them. The vast majority of the time it is US-centricism by ommission, rather than forcing the US perspective (or an idealised US perspective, anyway) onto other situations an an explicit way. The US experience is used to speak for all experiences. And that’s fine – more than fine – if being American is the intent of the blog/site. But if it’s meant to be globally inclusive, then pretty much every blog or site I visit regularly has failed to achieve that in some way or form. I’ve almost stopped noticing it, because it’s so common. I just automatically filter out content that I know will not bother to recognise or even be aware of the fact that it may need to recognise that the perspective it utilises does not speak for all perspectives (and certainly not for mine). Ditto for comments.
Re: TV, (tangential) of course citizens have no control over the cultural exports/imperialism in a larger sense, but when you by default experience cultural cringe when you hear your own national accent on TV, because you’re so used to hearing American accents, it’s pretty difficult to not become pissed off about it. And although American citizens can’t control this, they can recognise it for what it is, and understand that they are part of a larger imperialistic picture, whether they mean to be or not.
I get where you’re coming from TidgeH, but recognition and understanding require education. It takes a certain amount of power to be able to recognize that you’re participating in a system of cultural imperialism. I’m not sure ranting against the hoi polloi accomplishes anything.
@concernedlily – I am with you on being afraid of the word “privilege” in this concept. Which is why I tried to put it as “epistemological consequences of power.” It’s more like we’re talking about certain cultural blinders than a material privilege. But that gets into a whole critique of the “privilege” concept that I’m kind of thinking about in the background and will maybe have a post on if my real life can get some bearings back.
Because to me, this “privilege” is just a privilege of being able to be blind about certain things; beyond that, it doesn’t mean much power-wise to the ordinary American.
@JetGirl – It seems to me generally that anti-Americanism is another issue, although I will say that as someone who might, in her more drunken and careless moments, curse “Americans,” I often feel frustrated by the fact that apparently no one in this country is responsible for it unless it does good things. When it has the First Amendment, or elects Barack Obama, those things seem to be unqualifiedly agreed to be “American.” But when it comes to things like the Iraq War, I have yet to meet the American who shrugs and says, “Yes, I’m disappointed in this country.” And the fact that so many Americans seem to view any raising of this country’s faults by a foreigner as unwelcome. I like to throw Guanatanamo into conversations about the U.S. legal system, and I can usually time a stopwatch by the one second it will take an American to tell me that that’s an exceptional phenomenon, that the “Real America” resides in the constitution.
The US experience is used to speak for all experiences. And that’s fine – more than fine – if being American is the intent of the blog/site. But if it’s meant to be globally inclusive, then pretty much every blog or site I visit regularly has failed to achieve that in some way or form. I’ve almost stopped noticing it, because it’s so common. I just automatically filter out content that I know will not bother to recognise or even be aware of the fact that it may need to recognise that the perspective it utilises does not speak for all perspectives (and certainly not for mine). Ditto for comments.
This is exactly how I feel. I feel I have to keep my Canadianism “in check” most of the time, too. I had someone on another forum ask, once, when I said something about race relations in Canada, ask “why I had to bring nationalism into this.”
To come at this from another angle: can anyone recommend good international blogs / websites / internet spaces for feminists? I feel like the blogs I read make a stab at being international, but are staffed mostly or entirely with people from the States, and sometimes the “international” flavor comes across as weird fetishism. (I’m thinking of when Another Site went through a period of including at least two women in headscarves in pretty pictures every day, but otherwise … zilch.) If there’re any examples of International / Transnational internet dialogue done right, I’d like to take a look. If nothing else, it’s good to have a positive example in addition to the [totally welcome, IMO] reality check.
I am, in a sort of doppelganger-way, coming from a similar perspective as that of PilgrimSoul: I am a US citizen living in Canada. More specifically, I am an American who grew up in the Deep South, who now lives in Ontario. I think this post is extremely interesting, and hits on a reality that I have become more aware of since moving out of the United States. Because of the cultural dominance of the US, it is difficult to grow up within its borders and be aware of that dominance (and its contingency) in meaningful ways. It was not until I spent significant time outside of the country that I became aware how little I knew of the world, how much virtually ALL the media I relied on assumed a strictly US context, etc.
This has become even more salient to me around questions of race, which are important for me both personally and academically. And in truth, I think that even most US-ians are pretty tone-deaf w/r/t conceptualizing race IN OUR OWN CONTEXT. I remember, for example, in the lead-up to the 2008 election, CNN reports on race in the US repeatedly using phrases like “both races,” a slip that I believe is consistent in much of the population, especially in the South, where the black-white binary has been such a key part of our history. So I suppose I would want to suggest that Chally’s post makes an important point, but it also suggests that many of us from the US have work to do in adequately understanding the complexity of racialization–and the real, oppressive, complex fallout of that racialization–for different kinds of people within the US.
Of course, now it sounds like I’m just saying “but wait, let’s talk about the US some more!” That’s not my intention. (Or, at least it’s not my primary intention. Just a sidenote.)
To return to Chally’s post: again, I think she’s right to say that racial dynamics or oppressions aren’t identical everywhere. And this is a real thing to both pay attention to and educate ourselves about–and I think way #1 of doing that is to actually LISTEN to other people who have things to say about this. There are plenty of people from non-US countries who have important things to say about race, ethnicity, and color oppression (people like Frantz Fanon and Gayatri Spivak and Chandra Talpade Mohanty come to mind for me, as an academic, but I know that there are bloggers and activists as well) in different contexts, which are worth educating ourselves on. And I think actually doing the WORK of that self-education is crucial, because of one final point I want to make: just because the racial dynamics of the US (or even of parts of the US) do not map directly onto other countries, it does NOT mean that the situation of those countries is hunky-dory, race/color/ethnicity-wise. One thing that I have noticed since being in Canada, for example, is that while many Canadians are aware of this country’s less-than-stellar record on Indigenous relations, they are unwilling to admit that racism is a problem. I have heard several of my Canadian friends say things SIMILAR to what Chally says here–”we don’t have your history”–and this is absolutely true. But, the fact remains that many of those same people will refer to the areas of the town where I live with a greater population of racial and ethnic minorities as “the ghetto,” or “a dicey neighborhood.” The situation is not the same, but race/skin color remains an issue.
Finally, I want to say that I hope this last point isn’t lost, because I have also experienced many US-ians reading such claims about the difference of racialization in other countries as meaning that racism/colorism doesn’t exist elsewhere, which is just false. A good friend of mine, who is a light-skinned Mexican-American woman, and who has spent significant time in Latin America, was recently told at a party in the US–by a white dude, no less–that she was wrong to think that racism existed in Mexico, since “they don’t see it there, like we do.” She replied that, while it might be conceptualized differently (i.e., there’s not exactly the same culturally-shared myth about ‘race’ as biological difference), it was undeniable that she was treated better in Mexico than her darker-skinned friends, and that, in many places in Mexico, de facto color-based segregation exists. The problem was not that she was mistaken about the existence of racism or colorism in Mexico. The problem was that HE (the white guy from the US) was unable to see what exactly the problem WAS, because to him, the lines were ‘white/Latino’–meaning that to him, everyone was simply just “Latin.”
I was born in the states but hold a dual citizenship thanks to mother who was born deep south of the boarder. I was raised in both countries and tragically remember early classes for ESL not because I couldn’t speak English but because the state of Texas was hell bent on making me lose my accent. I wish they hadn’t succeded.
Traveling overseas has forced me to see that among other nations we are viewed as racist and as forceful since many young American men whom I work with don’t stop to consider the social norms and customs of others be that religious or not. I have encountered the “this is the way it is” mantra by many. I by no means am saying everyone is that way but when your in a land apart from your own and you see pig-heads acting like empowered pig-heads it is very discouraging. Because of how I was raised I have been acussed of not being “American” before.
I love the white dude explaining Latin American racial dynamics to the Mexican-American! It’s man-white-US-splaining, all at once!
You are of course correct, philosophyerin, that the fact that racial dynamics are different doesn’t mean that they don’t EXIST, of course. I think white Canadians are often in as much denial. (Quebec in particular has… often scary internal dialogue about race.) The issue is that we have pursued a different model, which has been more successful in some places and less successful in others. And when I try to raise that with Americans, it turns into “I once knew a racist Canadian” stories.
@Pilgrim Soul: It IS man-white-US-splaining! I never even thought about it in those terms before, but it’s a classic example.
I also didn’t mean (though I’m not sure if you meant to imply this) to suggest that “my one Canadian friend said this racist thing once” means that the situation of race in Canada is identical to that of the US. My point was mainly that racism/colorism is still operative in other places, even if it’s not primarily operative on the black/white (or even black/white/Latino) line.
It might also be worth exploring what the exportation/cultural hegemony of American media does to enhance or exacerbate racism/colorism in other countries.
@ Pilgrim Soul
Which I don’t understand since we all know someone who was racist. Wouldn’t that prove that racism is indeed alive and well? They come in all shapes and colors!
I’m a non-US person of color who isn’t seen in the US as a person disadvantaged b/c of her color and I honestly don’t understand this rant. Of course different places have different types of bigotry and identity issues. But – most of the blogs I read are American-centric. Feministe is US-centric. It’s just a result of the people who started it. It’s not worthy of a rant.
It surprises me the extent to which baraqiel’s point was ignored in this thread. Yeah, an individual can’t control what a corporation chooses to import, but an individual can and should make conscious consumer choices. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. End of story. There’s power in the buy local idea, whether local is your county or your country. And no, this isn’t simplistic. Companies will respond to consumer demand-or lack of it.
PSoul, I don’t know where you’ve been during the last 9 years, but there are quite a few Americans who are disgusted and ashamed of our behavior in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are not all right-wing war-loving tea-bagging loonies, and I’m sure you know that.
And I think the coinage “USian” is the biggest piece of jackassery I’ve seen in months.
I’m Canadian. I didn’t really realize how much the US was present throughout the world, not just here, until I arrived in Amsterdam’s airport and what did I see on TV? News about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.
People have pointed out on feministe that most people think their country is great. Well, sure, but that doesn’t mean we think of our country as THE greatest. In a speech on patriotism, Obama said, “As I got older, that gut instinct – that America is the greatest country on earth – would survive my growing awareness of our nation’s imperfections…I believe those who attack America’s flaws without acknowledging the singular greatness of our ideals…do not truly understand America.”
I realize that was an Independence Day speech and he was trying to get elected but…sometimes the things he (and other politicians) say make it sound like the US is the ONLY place in the world that is democratic, with freedom of religion, voting, freedom to protest, etc. If Americans lived anywhere else they would be less lucky.
I don’t know. If a blog has only Americans writing for it, of course it will have a lot of American content. I’ve been mostly skipping or quickly scanning posts on abstinence-only sex ed, pro life people, a superbowl anti-choice ad, pro life license plates, and other topics related to American politics or about Americans I’ve never heard of. This can be half of posts. Those just aren’t really issues for me. I’d say Feministe and other blogs are mainly American blogs about American issues. Anyone know of a Canadian feminist blog? Maybe I should look.
I had someone on another forum ask, once, when I said something about race relations in Canada, ask “why I had to bring nationalism into this.”
Really? Ugh. As a fellow Canadian, I really found myself nodding along to so much of Chally’s post. Sometimes I feel like I don’t even really know what being Canadian really is. But, really, I think that’s not a rare problem here. We get saturated by so much US-dominated media that it’s somewhat unavoidable.
Also, I can say for sure that I know far, far more about the American political climate than I do about that of my own country, much to my chagrin. If I had the time, I’d be sorely tempted to start a blog of my own, focusing primarily on the Canadian political climate and it impacts marginalized groups.
On the other hand, we Canadians spend far too much time patting ourselves on the back about our race relations than we really should. Sometimes it seems like so many people are all like, “well, we’re better than the US.” It’s kind of sickening sometimes. Like, we’re so over race. Which is manifestly not true. On a national level, it seems like we just prefer to turn a blind eye to it. And perhaps it is somewhat easier for us to do so, with our race relations being placed on somewhat less binary terms than in the States.
*How it impacts, in the second paragraph, ugh.
Also, so many “reallys” in the first paragraph
@MM: I agree with baraqiel and your points about consumer choices. But I don’t agree with the “end of story” part. I don’t think it’s that simple. I try to make informed choices about a lot of things: the food I buy, the media I consume, hell, I even bent over backwards to stay out of the vortex of the wedding industrial complex as best I could. Nevertheless, I still spend an inordinate amount of time bitching about our food system, the crap women’s magazines shill, and the WIC. I’m still frustrated that things have gotten to this point, I’m angry at how hard it is to opt out, and sometimes I vent. So yes, consumers have power. Yes, we’re all responsible for making conscientious choices. Yes, consumers in other countries can reject fair that perpetuates US cultural hegemony. But I don’t think that having that choice means that the need to occasionally blow off some steam about the state of things just disappears.
WTF is with the teen-shaming? It’s rude, unnecessary, and bigoted.
I was about to write “I’m in my forties and could have written Chally’s post”, but I stopped myself, because I reckon there’s no way I could have written it as well as she.
Gotta agree with lauredhel. The ageism in the comments is disgusting. “Hey, I can’t actually counter Chally’s points well enough so I’ll attack her for being too young.” I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that it’s being done by people who are also otherwise reacting poorly to being called out on their privilege. It’s the sort of deflection one expects of the privileged (along with the ever-popular tone argument which appeared in the very first comment).
(Also, fwiw, I pronounce “USian” as “usonian”, the word the architect Frank Lloyd Wright created.)
I’m coming to this thread very late. And wow! The irony and hypocrisy of some of the posts critiquing Chally on matters of tone and others was more than a little disappointing. And seeing one of the Harpies actually complaining ad infinitum about some other writer being, well, harpyish, and doing so with dismissive language which I’d normally see from some MRA-er on a feminist site was … actually, I have no words.
@mischiefmanager: Whether you intend or not, for me, your last post comes off as reeking of economic privilege. When you say that “an individual can and should make conscious consumer choices. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. End of story,” you are being incredibly simplistic. I’m from India, living and teaching in the US for the last 12 years, spending some time in India annually. And one thing I’ve seen often enough is that not buying it because you don’t like it, or even choosing not to like it, is simply not an option for a huge number of people in India and in a lot of countries around the world. People with a very limited amount of money, not to mention often a fairly limited amount of education too, will buy whatever is in front of them, most convenient, and will keep them and their families alive. And reducing it to the responsibility of the individual consumer seems strange. We rightly don’t do that when discussing the influence of US advertising and products on supporting the patriarchy, so why here?
Personally, I like many aspects of the US (such as the college system, which is why I’m studying and teaching here) and think it currently is the nation with the greatest potential for aiding meaningful change on the planet. But that also means it has the greatest potential for negative influence. Much of India, for example, is deeply jingoistic, racist, sexist (still doing way better than the US at electing female heads of state, however!), etc. But these elements in India don’t affect the rest of the world in the way US attitudes do. And, as Chally rightly pointed out, one of the most grating parts of international behavior on the parts of the US is to often ignore or erase (often intentionally, of course) the fact that US experiences, beliefs and attitudes are not the universal.
A simple example is the whole usage of “American”. mischiefmanager, you mentioned that “the coinage “USian” is the biggest piece of jackassery I’ve seen in months”. Isn’t “American” a little bit of a misnomer, just like Indians labelling themselves Asian and calling the rest of the continent by the individual country’s names, or the French deciding their national term is European? I personally don’t use the term “USian”, but I do try to make my students think critically about how many (most?) Americans do tend to think about themselves and their corner of the globe (and, by extension, their beliefs and goals) as the center of the world.
Of course each individual American doesn’t necessarily want, espouse or express the views Chally is critiquing. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or that it shouldn’t be discussed, even if it makes you a little uncomfortable and is in an angry rant. Especially if it makes you sit back and consider whether your own beliefs and attitudes somehow aid, however little, in the existence of what Chally refers to. I’m male and I personally hate the idea of misogyny and rape culture. I do my little bit to work against it by trying to make my students aware of and critically engaged with the subject. And if someone makes an angry rant about the subject (as I’ve enjoyed seeing often on Harpyness, which I’ve been following for the last 2 years), I don’t take it personally because I don’t think I should. But I do try to think critically about whether any of that applies to me. The same, I think, should be the default approach when dealing with the subject of the US and its international influence.
Someone up-thread made a comment to the effect that something must have really irked Chally, or perhaps it was a build-up of things.
If you read Chally’s post, you will see that she makes a reference to some commenter demanding that she respond to a comment, at 3am in the morning.
But that would be 3am on the east coast. Of Australia. The commenter hadn’t bothered to understand that even if zie was awake at midday in New York, or 8am in LA, a blogger who lives on the east coast of Australia is highly likely to be in bed, and asleep at that time. Because different parts of the world have different times!!!
See what I did there? Just a little bit of google on “time zones”, and a tiny bit of maths (because we tend to call it maths here, not math), and I can work out what the world might be like, in one respect at least, for other people.
@mischiefmanager – See, your reaction is exactly the kind of thing that I’m talking about. I didn’t say Americans are “all right-wing war-loving tea-bagging loonies.” To leap to that conclusion from my observation that no one in this country seems willing to take responsibility for the bad is exactly the kind of maneuver that is frustrating. It’s trying to make the subject about you, and what you are like, instead of the actual subject.
If you have nothing to contribute but calling aspects Chally’s post “jackassery” please desist. It’s not a useful contribution.
@lauredhel – Yeah, it is indeed disappointing. I don’t know what to say about it, really.
@everyone else – To be clear, the tone discussion was ONE of us expressing an opinion which others do not share. It is certainly not the overall position of the website.
oh, also, belatedly, @philosophyerin – I didn’t think you were doing the thing I was describing, I agree, the racial dynamics are different. In fact, most of the dynamics are different.
@Jenny – I have thought about being more Canadian-centric. The one issue is that Canada simply doesn’t have the volume and the diversity of media outlets that either the US or arguably the UK do. And in general I have a hard time discussing what goes on in Canada with a largely American audience – while there are exceptions, I often have to wade through a sea of Canadian jokes and misinformation if I want to talk seriously. So mostly I just talk about America because it’s easier.
I’m coming late to this, but I did want to say that I think that Chally does express an inherent anti-Americanness that I’m uncomfortable with. I’m a naturalized US citizen, born in Barbados, and not white. I can understand her frustration at trying to speak out against American cultural hegemony, but the truth is, many of us American are not white, not imperialist, and American by choice.
As for pointing out that Chally’s a teenager–well, Becky was being a bit bitchy in her assessment (because that’s what she does) but the post does read like something written by someone who’s young, angry, and questioning authority.
@delanor and everyone else: All due respect, but further comments playing armchair psychologist about Chally’s age and her level of “anger” will be deleted. They are not helpful, and it really pisses me off that people are using that as an excuse not to engage with the actual substance of the post.
So for those of you so inclined to comment, your (IMO invalid) point has already been made.
I expressed my opinion respectfully and clearly. There was nothing unkind in my assessment of the author–I think most of us were also young and questioning authority once. Most meaningful change is born out of that kind of youthful passion.
I really like Harpyness but don’t comment much because as a black Caribbean woman, I don’t always feel that the posts speak to me. In this case, I did, because you specifically asked for the opinions of people from other cultures/races. When I gave it, I was told I was making excuses not to engage with the author’s post and my comment was “IMO invalid” and that I could have my comments deleted.
Discouraging and saddening.
Wow. Way late to this, but I’ll throw my 2 cents in. I read this yesterday, didn’t get the big deal, RE-READ it today in light of all the fury over here and…I still don’t get it. As a US citizen I am not offended in the least, either by the tone or the substance of what she was saying. I am genuinely puzzled as to the issues many have with it, and its CLEAR that people have issues. In fact she seems to have that mix of fed up/sarcastic ranting that is popular in many places throughout the blogosphere from I Blame the Patriarchy to (as already noted) this blog.
As to the substance of the piece I take her meaning, and appreciate her perspective as one that I personally do not share since I am a US citizen, just as I appreciate the perspective of someone who is a different race or socio economic than myself.
er, socio economic background than myself
@delanor: What I am trying to do, and hope you can appreciate, is curb the direction this conversation has taken. Seriously, due respect, I didn’t think your comment was that bad, but we’ve already had enough about everyone’s armchair opinions of Chally’s personality, and your comment could start that up again, and I want it to end. Your engagement with the actual post is fine, but the fact that we have now spent an entire thread discussing Chally’s tone is embarrassing to me as an author of this blog, and I want it to end.
@Shil: You seem to imply that poor people, or those not well educated, have no power or agency. I think that’s disrespectful, and I’d suggest that history tells us otherwise. Granted that poverty often translates to less time to fight political battles, I still think you’re not giving the poor enough credit. Besides, even if you have a point for certain parts of India (which I don’t grant), don’t tell me that Australians and Canadians and Europeans who are educated and relatively well off have no buying power or economic choice. So their complaints about the pervasiveness of American products seems just a tad disingenuous to me.
“Reducing it to the responsibility of the individual consumer seems strange. We rightly don’t do that when discussing the influence of US advertising and products on supporting the patriarchy, so why here?”
Oh, but we do. We are prepared to expose companies for their misogyny (see the post-Superbowl discussions), demand change, and boycott when necessary. Consumer power is in our hands. In fact, there can be no change at all without our individual choices and voices.
[This comment has been edited to delete the rest of it as it did not follow the requests of the editor of this thread.]
I think in general it’s taking a pretty bare view of agency to claim that when someone points out that our choices are constrained by factors we cannot control, they are denying someone else’s agency. A theory of free will does not require that we also postulate that everyone has all choices available to them at all times. There’s a happy medium here that I think is where we all live: we’d sometimes like to make other choices, but for economic reasons cannot. So no, I don’t think it’s as simple as “opting out” of a cultural order “if you don’t like it.”
“I don’t think it’s as simple as “opting out” of a cultural order “if you don’t like it.””
For sure. At least 95% of movies are American, radio stations play lots of American music, and there’s mostly American TV too and all American tabloids. Part of globalization is Americanization, at least with regards to restaurants, and famous people. I don’t mind too much. A more feasible action than avoiding anything from American would be to watch and listen to Canadian TV and music. I hope it doesn’t go away and we support it because there are some funny and entertaining Canadians.
@Pilgrim Soul: Thanks for making my point much more succinctly and in better phrasing than I could have. Also, since I didn’t mention it earlier, thanks for keeping the thread on track. I find this a really interesting discussion.
@mischiefmanager: As Pilgrim Soul indicated above, saying that people’s choices are constrained is hardly implying that said people “have no power or agency”. And noting that many poor people around the world have their power and agency significantly mediated by their material conditions is hardly disrespectful. It’s just realistic. Have you had much interaction with poor people (or any people) in countries outside the USA? I might be wrong, but the points you made makes me seriously doubt it. Poverty in the USA is not the same as poverty in countries such as India. Nor is lack of education. By now, I’ve spoken to and interacted with thousands of people who are functionally illiterate and/or who earn and live on less than $10 a month. I’ve seen what they go through and exactly how horribly constrained their options are. If you think I’m not giving them enough credit, I think you’re letting romantic ideas about the poor and uneducated (and, probably, lack of any real experience with life outside the USA) get in the way of realizing exactly how different the situations and experiences of people around the globe can be.
Also, I was really amused by your “Besides, even if you have a point for certain parts of India (which I don’t grant)”. Unless I’m misunderstanding, I think you’re actually US-plaining to me about how people in India live. And people wonder why Chally made the post she did.
I am Canadian and I agree with the basic precept of the post originally quoted here. I would really like to hear more about these issues as they pertain to my country specifically. While I consider it valuable and engaging to talk about other countries, including the US, I think it is a tragedy that we so lack an internal discourse on many of these matters.
Also, I agree that saying that talking about the restriction in choices brought about by poverty is simplistic and involves willfully pulling the wool over your own eyes in regards to the privilege we embody as people with a certain socioeconomic status. Poverty exist even in Canada, Australia, and the USA. All of these countries have homeless and people with homes who must buy whatever is cheapest to feed their families. That does not sound like choice to me.
Today at lunch, my friends and I were talking about what passes for news in this country while important events are ignored. Someone brought up how our “news” helps keep us ignorant of other countries and this gave me the opportunity to bring up Chally’s post. Everyone found it interesting and eye-opening. No one felt offended and they all understood the viewpoints.
So for whatever it’s worth, Chally’s message got through to a few Americans off the internet. Also, I work with doctors from all over the world. Because of that post, I will pay attention to how I interact with them when we talk about social or political issues. Thanks for linking to it.
I have been reading this thread avidly, and wanted to comment yesterday. I sat here for ages trying to come up with a non-threatening opener. “Although not all Americans are *blank*,…” “While I can appreciate some may interpret Chally’s presentation as an attack” etc etc.
It hit me later, that that is the same placating, appeasing, pussy-footing around that I do when talking about anything vaguely feminist around men who are, well, resistant. Which was surprising, because I didn’t think this was a pussy-footing blog.
So I won’t. As a fellow Australian, I think Chally makes some great points. US culture is everywhere, to the point where it is a conscious effort to even point it out, let alone reject it. The advice to ‘buy Australian or get over it’, is a bit simplistic. Obviously, yes, I could do that – you could even argue that I should do that, as a relatively well-off individual who has that financial option. But that advice shows a lack of understanding of just how ubiquitous US culture/exports is, which was kind of Chally’s contention. E.g, soft drink. I am sitting at my desk now and can’t think of one single Australian soft drink I could buy if I wanted a can. And the scariest thing is that I have never noticed that before. Even here, America(n) = default.
So I get that that is not your, personal, individual fault, and I also get that as a rich white westerner brought up on American culture I myself benefit from Americanisation, but I don’t think I am not allowed to be annoyed, enraged, or smothered by it.
I’m coming to this incredibly late as well, and am also perplexed and surprised by many of the comments I’m seeing here. I grew up and currently live in the States, but have traveled a lot and lived in Central America for several years, and I think this post is right on and not in the least offensive.
There are many things I love about the US culture and about living here. But one of the main things I dislike about US culture is exactly what Chally described – the all-too-common self-involvement and belief that nothing worthwhile exists outside our borders, and no other ways of living or viewing the world are worth attempting to understand. I’ve spent much of my life – and all of my adult life, certainly – trying to learn about and understand other ways of living and viewing the world; reading books written by foreign authors; traveling; befriending people from different backgrounds than myself. Yet, still, I was influenced enough by the US-centric culture to be surprised that, while in Central America, what was going on in the US just wasn’t that big of a deal (except in the broadest outlines). For example, I was living in Nicaragua during the bank crash in the fall of ’08, and though we all heard and worried about it in the form of how it was going to impact tourism and the ex-pat real estate industry, it just really wasn’t talked about. Even though it is now affecting them, dramatically (somewhat tangentially, as Shil pointed above, one of the downsides of US hegemony is harmful actions in the US trickle down and affect the rest of the world, unlike similarly harmful actions carried out by other leaders. I used to get in debates with my friends about who was worse, Ortega or Bush, and Bush won every time because the whole world has been affected by his acts and policies).
I, for one, really like the term USian. This is the first time I’ve come across it, and I’ve already incorporated it into my writing at a Central American website. We’ve been struggling with a term by which to refer to people from the US, as ‘gringo’ refers to anyone white (not to mention offensive to some), and ‘American’ refers to anyone from the Western Hemisphere (the continents are named South, Central, and North America, after all). Some have used “USano”, which is basically just a Latinization of the same term. I think “USian” is perfect, and I’m perplexed as to why some here react to it so strongly.
I’m also perplexed by the reactions to her tone, which I see as no more angry or snarky than many posts I’ve seen here or at other feminist blogs.
Finally, I want to back up Shil re: poverty and consumer choice. Many people I know in Nicaragua are surviving on $1/day or less, and living in towns that usually have 1 or 2 large grocery stores: a Pali (owned by Walmart), and maybe another US-owned chain. US brands are ubiquitous and unavoidable, and because they’re mass-produced and -shipped, often cheaper than locally produced options. Also, much of the media (TV, music, movies) comes from the States – and exactly how much choice does an individual have about what comes on their TV? Not much! For many items, especially clothing and electronics, the option of buying local is simply not there, even for those rare few who can afford it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_soft_drinks_by_country
Australian Soft Drinks:
Bickford’s (full line of juices, sodas, teas, and bottled water)[1]
Bundaberg (family owned producer of Bundaberg Ginger Beer)
Cottee’s (brand of cordial drinks, owned by Cadbury-Schweppes)
Count Cola (now discontinued brand of soda)
Farmers Union Iced Coffee (popular flavored milk drink)
Golden Circle (brand of carbonated beverages)
Kirks (line of sodas marketed by Coca-Cola Amatil)
Gest (line of sodas purchased by Coca-Cola Amatil and discontinued)
LA Ice Cola (cola available in four varieties)
Leed (carbonated lemonade)
Lido
McSars
McMahons soft drinks (popular family run soft drink company in Ipswich West St Qld 1934-late 80′s, founded by Frank McMahon)
Passiona (passionfruit-flavored soft drink available from Cadbury-Schweppes)
PipeLime
Pub Squash
Saxby’s – possum juices, thirst quencher.
Solo – lemon-flavoured, owned by Cadbury Schweppes lightly carbonated for fast drinking after hard work or exercise in Australia’s hot climate and marketed as such.
Schweppes a range of mineral water/fruit juice drinks developed in Australia, with flavours that include orange-mango, and lemon, lime and orange.
There you go.
viajera if you would be willing to email me I would love to pick your brain on how you say certain things in Spanish, especially terms re: sexism and race relations. I am frequently at a loss when translating seemingly simple things.
As a Canadian, I completely understand Chally’s points. It can indeed be frustrating to often seeing/having the US-lens on things. But when you are at a US-based site – this is to be expected. How can you ask someone not familiar with a different country to deal with things through a lens of that country (would that not be US-splaining?).
The fact of the matter is that there are so many more US blogs. Analogy: When you are on a US blog, although you may be sitting in your own part of the world, you are, in essence, in an American living room, discussing a topic of interest to the owner of that home. Of course the lens will be different – as frustrating as that can sometimes be, that is in many ways the nature of international discourse. That said, as any host knows, it is preferrable to be a least somewhat of who your guests are, so as not to offend too badly. On the internet, though, that becomes almost impossible…a blog is accessible by everyone, anywhere, anytime. So, respectfully-worded cross-education may be required (and isn’t that a great thing!)
It is great, too, to have people originally from different countries/or who really know in depth about a different county to be one of the bloggers (as occurs on Harpyness). International guest bloggers and international commentators can also add a view through a different lens. How about international Harpies-follower offer to guest blog about a country-specific topic or a view through a different lens? I think that there are probably many stories/issues from many countries that could use a little harpy-analysis. And what a great way to introduce each other to different lenses!
Rodriguez – sure, I’d be happy to help where I can. I can’t see your email address here, so contact me at viajera 06 at gmail.com (without the spaces, replace the at, yada yada)
But when it comes to things like the Iraq War, I have yet to meet the American who shrugs and says, “Yes, I’m disappointed in this country.”
Not one?
And as for how Americans tend to point out how they are individually different when confronted by ill fitting stereotypes– we’re a culture of individuality, we’re raised to think of ourselves as unique individual snowflakes, and right… Frankly, being an American is a privilege in the same way that me being visibly a white male is a privilege.
Also, discussions about the tone of Chally’s post should have no reflection on you, her tone overrides her point, which is why so many people take issue with it. Also, we yanks have no sense of humour. (And that was me trying humour, as I would never call myself a yank in all seriousness.)
Immersion in other cultures is really the only way to fully develop a sense of cultural differences and respect. As Americans, we aren’t really forced to immerse ourselves. I think, possibly, my university being in Northern California was an immersion compared to my entire life before that in suburban Texas. Thus, I was more prepared for going abroad and encountering new cultures. I still make a tasteless joke from time to time, but I figure that is less my privilege and more my failure at humour.
Yes, we can be US-centric. We’re also more likely to be individualistic and selfish. But we’re not that much more so than other peoples.
@ FW Australian Soft drinks.
Thanks for the list- will print it off for future reference. Now if only I could find a Coles, Woolworths or 7/11 store that that regularly stocked more than two or three of those brands..I’m sure the aussies reading this blog will understand what I’m talking about!
So, I’ve never read this blog or the feministe blog before, and found it via Rachel Hills. I couldn’t help but add my two cents because I just spent a while reading every comment.
As a twenty year old “USian” relatively well off and well educated (or at least working on it) I’m having a little trouble understanding where the rage is directed. There are a lot of different issues at work, some that have nothing at all to do with the attitudes of the average US citizen, and some that have everything to do with it.
First of all, the fact that most companies from the US have taken over the local economy is a basic result of capitalization. I realize that this is a Western based ideal (and a touchy subject to most) but the fact is that these companies are allowed to expand to the highest of heights with no (or extremely little) limits, and few people understand the negative effects of that. I’m not sure who to be angry at for that, since most (I think?) countries have bought into it voluntarily. It would be a lie to say that all have as “we” (the typical USians, whoever they may be) hate those who haven’t, but that might be a different story than places who already had a Western culture, like Canada, Australia, etc.
And then there’s that other little thing called patriotism that seems to be so upsetting to others. Doesn’t everyone love their country? Why is that not okay? I can be disappointed that my government makes certain decisions (hello Guantanamo, way to go Iraq, let’s get this show on the road, universal health care) but I was under the basic impression that every country tried to instill a certain amount of patriotism in its citizens. Maybe some are better at doing that than others, but I feel like the main thing about US patriotism is that we’re capable of being louder about it, since our economy has a history of domination (though that’ll probably be over soon enough) – back to capitalism. I don’t think it’s all that different from the attitudes of citizens from other countries, but please correct me if I’m wrong. I mean, come on – what’s wrong with Thanksgiving? Doesn’t Canada have it’s own form of the harvesting holiday? And so we have Independence Day – Mexico has an independence day too! The French have Bastille day! I don’t think any American expects other countries to care about our culture’s special holidays.
Finally, though the US culture has a basic isolationist tenet that is influential and is in the minds of the people dating from our reluctance to enter WWII until Pearl Harbor happened. There’s a “not our country, not our problem” thing going on that is more prevalent I think in some areas than others. Lack of education does have a lot to do with it as well – I feel like the only people that would be surprised that foreign countries have soda and wear jeans are generally uneducated.
So I guess given my long and rambling comment, my basic point is this: with all these issues at work, who’s really at fault for this? What is anyone supposed to do about it? Because I think anger at the general population of US citizens is misdirected and basically unhelpful.
(1) Not sure why it’s a problem to say “but I’m American and I’m not like that, and neither are most of my friends and neighbors” when someone makes a negative generalization based on their small slice of experience with Americans. Is it better to let people toil along in ignorance? Isn’t Chally’s whole point that others should not presume to define your experiences for you based on their own? Are you only allowed to hate being incorrectly defined if you’re not American?
(2) Also not sure why tone is not a valid point of discussion. To me, both the positive and negative aspects of it are useful to notice. On one hand, frustration given a free rein turns a lot of people’s ears off, and often speaks to whether the writer has been thoughtful about taking responsibility for her own reactions. On the other hand, “asking nicely doesn’t always get the job done,” a wise older woman once said to me. Sometimes the one who doesn’t ask nicely is the one who finally turns the conversation in a new direction, and someone with the courage and clarity to do that should be celebrated.
(3) Further not sure why American economic, cultural, and thought hegemony is an issue that the US is blamed exclusively for. In a global economy, that is the height of disingenuity. (is that a word?) I hate our crappy TV as much as you do. Don’t watch it and it will go away, like Conan at 11:35. Or, be consistent and get busy being outraged at every country that has a corner on any market. Myself, I’m working up a pretty good snit about Denmark and their clean-energy hegemony, because it makes my gas-guzzling American minivan look even dumber than it already did. Who the Chrysler do they think they are?
At the risk of seeming humourless:
1) It strikes me that as in most situations where one is considering an experience not one’s own, it’s a little out of place to declare that all other places are “just like” America in their adoption and/or definition of patriotism unless you were raised/have substantial experience of those places. What you’ve read or seen on brief tourist visits doesn’t seem to me to count – much as one can walk away from a trip to say Disneyland with a very narrow and shallow view of American culture, one can walk away from a few trips to Paris with a very narrow and shallow view of French culture.
2) If you have arrived in this thread to make a point about capitalism, please note that people have discussed this above and respond accordingly. I understand and respect your argument, but I don’t think we get anywhere by repeating ourselves.
3) Finally, this thread has made me realize that perhaps some of our readers are not that familiar with the arguments about American cultural imperialism that are common in other cultures. I would ask that rather than simply offering your view that this “doesn’t exist,” you respect the fact that the issue of cultural imperialism is very important to other cultures and thus try to listen a little to that perspective before coming to that conclusion.
Thanks.
The irony here absolutely kills me, since Chally’s post was, among others, about USians projecting US experiences onto other cultures-
Actually, no, not all countries try to instil patriotism, not everybody loves their country, not everyone thinks patriotism is a good thing. I’m from Germany and our relationship with our country is, um, a wee bit different than you seem to be expecting (I will just point at Germany’s history over the past century here…) Our general attitude is less “yay Germany!” and more “um, if you vaguely hint you might like this country it’s just another step to breaking out the swastikas”; this may have changed a bit since the World Cup but we’re a far cry from so much as commonly celebrating our national holiday. I essentially considered the word “patriot” an insult for the longest time and although I’m slowly reconsidering it in general I’d still be offended if you applied it to me.
And coming from this background, speaking as someone who lived in the US for six years – US patriotism flat-out terrifies me. Trust me, it is NOT something everyone does.
And yeah, as a German living in the UK, I was going “right on!” to all of Chally’s post. The US-dominance gets seriously frustrating, both RL and in the blogosphere. I discovered recently that I’d somehow absorbed the attitude that I shouldn’t bother to seek out German-speaking feminist blogs because all the *important* issues got covered in the English-language blogs and of course German feminism must be lagging behind US feminism anyway because the US was at the forefront of the world. And I know where I absorbed that from.