HOLY SHIZZNIT! Via Christopher Ware @ Flickr.
A few weeks ago, PhDork, Pilgrim Soul and I met fellow fem-blogger Amanda Marcotte for some drinks and a mountain of fries at a local bar. Amanda happened to walk in right as Tha Dork and I were chatting gaily about how, as kids, we received conflicting messages about whether we should wear panties or not, and when and what kind, etc. This is a fairly typical conversation in Harpyland, and bless Amanda, she rolled with it, even though she had never met us before and probably wondered WTF was up with these women talking about their panties in public.
It was a lighthearted conversation, but the wearing of underwear, like so many things involving women’s clothing and women’s private parts, is fraught with socio-cultural bullshit. Some are just plain ridiculous, but some can be pretty damaging. Join me and PhDork as we discuss feminism and the politics of panties.
Full disclosure: I’m not wearing any as I write this (but I am wearing a sweatsuit, since it’s cold in my apartment.)
BeckySharper: I distinctly remember MamaSharper saying when I was very young that I didn’t need to wear panties to bed at night. I don’t remember exactly how it was phrased, but it was something like “your vagina doesn’t like to be covered all the time.” Heh. True on so many levels!
PhDork: I don’t remember hearing anything from my mom about not wearing knickers, and I pretty much always had them on, unless I had a swimsuit on, which was a lot of the time when I was a kid (I was on teams from ages 5-12). She did seem to be concerned about that, and about wearing cotton panties. I remember hearing from her that synthetic fibers would give me “infections.” I had no idea what she was talking about.
BeckySharper: I still pledge allegiance to the cotton briefs, myself. Your mom was right–synthetics are just asking for trouble, particularly if one is prone to yeast. And thongs are…well, we know how I feel about thongs. They’re only as a last resort if I can’t go commando.
PhDork: Definitely commando rather than a thong. And whenever you feel like it. Snug jeans = panties, fer shure, though. I mostly have microfiber, since they’re stretchy and comfy and aren’t likely to show under anything drapy or clingy. Also good to travel with, since you can wash them out in a sink and they’ll dry overnight.
BeckySharper: As a kid, going commando was totally acceptable at my house. My very proper grandma was not happy when she found this out–I think she was getting me ready for bed one night and I picked out a nightgown to wear but no panties, and then explained that “Mommy said I shouldn’t wear panties at night.” My mother and I still joke about the consternation that ensued when Grandma realized that I had been running around the house with no panties under my (floor length flannel) nightgown. Grandma and Mama had a Big Discussion about this and it was decided that I would wear panties at Grandma’s house at all times–even under the long nighties–but could take them off at bedtime.
PhDork: I did have a grade school friend, Lisa, who was like you–no panties at night. The first time I slept over at her house and her mother came in and asked “Lisa, did you take your panties off?” I was shocked. Why would you need to take off your panties at night?
BeckySharper: That happened to me in college, when the nice Southern Baptist girls in my dorm learned that not only did I not wear underwear at night, but I walked down the hall to the showers in my calf-length fuzzy bathrobe with no panties on. I mean, the robe was about as concealing as a wool overcoat, but somehow the knowledge that my ladyflower was just breezin’ around, uncovered, underneath it was horrifying to them. It was like they expected it to leap out and attack passers-by.
PhDork: Well, it does have nasty pointy teeth.
BeckySharper: True. And it doesn’t like Southern Baptists! I think our popular culture really does believe that a woman’s privates must be wrapped at all times or bad things will happen. Remember when Sharon Stone uncrossed her legs in “Basic Instinct?” The audience knew immediately that she must be a crazed, stabby nymphomaniac because she wasn’t wearing any panties! QED!
PhDork: There is a weird double-standard about going without undies. For dudes, “commando,” and “free-ballin” means you’re kinda badass-adventure-y or XTREEM! A woman sans undies is a tuh-ramp, askin’ fer it, or “dirty.”
BeckySharper: So true about the “asking for it.” I confess, I’ve had times where I felt paranoid and worried that if I were the victim of a sex crime, some sleazy defense attorney would undoubtedly cross-examine me by asking “Well, you weren’t wearing panties, were you?” And some jurors might actually buy it: Oh, well, she went out of the house without her cotton-and-elastic chastity belt, so she must have been asking for it!
Ladies, do you go commando? What kind of messages did you get about underwear as a child? Do those messages still rattle around in your mind as adults?
Oh, I love the harpies. I’m having kind of a down day and this is making me smile.
My mom didn’t (and doesn’t, as far as I know) wear underwear to bed, but I do. I find it more comfortable-and warmer in winter! Btw, I’m not a fan of the wordl “panties”. I think it’s too cutesy and feminized/sexualized.
I wonder where the practice of wearing underpants came from in the first place. Obviously there are times when women may need something, but why would men ever bother?
My mom insisted on the no-underwear at night bit. Because “a vagina needs to breathe.” She’s an RN, so maybe that’s part of it? I grew up in a clothes-optional house, showered with both my parents as an entire family when I was a kid, and regularly saw my mom walk around naked. My little sister was one of those “naked kids” who basically didn’t wear clothes if she could help it until she started school. They’d have to tackle her and force-dress her to get her to wear anything but a diaper, red cowboy boots, and some strategically placed stickers.
That said, I’m with mischiefmanager. I hate the word “panties” and generally stick with underwear or unda-pants. Oh, and I stick with cotton briefs/boyshorts. I don’t wear things that require thongs.
I’ve been known to go commando under a clingy dress or skirt but when I’m wearing pants I’m much more comfortable in underwear. At night I sleep in the nude unless it’s really cold (like it has been lately here in Maryland) or I’m, say, at my parents house where you don’t keep the door closed because of the cat and thus someone could potentially get an eyeful otherwise.
I was a serious ballet dancer as a kid and I remember it being kind of a big deal when I wanted to stop wearing bunchy underpants underneath my leotard and tights. My mom was like, “it’s not sanitary, and I’ll have to wash your leotards after every class now.” But I think the secret subcontext was, “aaaand it’s slutty and means you will have sex before age 16.”
Did any of you guys get weird advice about always wearing clean underwear? In case you were in a car accident? As if emergency personnel are going to inspect your undies rather than attend to your care in the event of an accident? Because my grandma told me that a lot.
We were an all-underwear all-the-time kind of family. I distinctly remember the night in middle school when I realized sleeping naked was MUCH more comforable and I could safely sleep sans clothing if I locked my door. When my mom found out she freaked but then agreed I could do it when it was hot out.
I think my conservative Christian parents thought underwear was like a magical barrier that would prevent me from ever discovering just what was going on down in lady-town. Because ladies that were knowledgeable about their lady parts were not ladies at all. It did not work.
@funnyface: That’s such a cultural meme and I’m sure I heard it as a kid, although probably on a sitcom, not from family. I’ve joked about it with friends over the years.
Is there an undercover class issue? It always seems insane to me that my folks in hot sticky Cuba wear underwear and undershirts. But it’s because they would rather wash those than wash their outer clothes (and replace them) as often as we do.
This even though MM taught me (like you, Becky) to not wear underpants to bed…I still don’t, except for the first couple of days of my period. And I walk to the bathroom (in college) in just a towel, which my dad wasn’t happy to hear.
But I have neeeever gone out and about in clothes without undergarments. Perhaps this is because all my jeans are snug. But also I’d feel really awkward if I were in a dress without underpants. I think that would just feel too open.
why would men ever bother?
Why there are support issues (and I still don’t speak for all men) that you may be familiar with a bit higher
@rodriguez: I dunno…that’s a good question. In my experience, WASPs of all classes are super-into the WEARING OF PANTIES AT ALL TIMES. They’re stereotyped as uptight/prudish for a reason.
We were an all-underwear house, and the idea of going commando is still a little weird to me, to be honest.
I think part of it has to do with rodriguez’s point – wouldn’t you have to wash things an awful lot more? And, like Baraqiel, I’d feel a bit too exposed if I were wearing a dress underneath. Maybe it’s those childhood fears of having a boy lift your skirt up and show your underwear to the whole class?)
@Endora: Wouldn’t you have to wash things an awful lot more?
Nah. Wear sweatpants without panties? Wash sweatpants. Wear them with panties? Wash panties and maybe sweatpants too. Either way, you’re going to have to wash at least one thing.
Also, if you wear dress pants without panties–as I do sometimes, to avoid VPL–you can take a pantiliner, stick it in the crotch, and then remove at the end of the day. Pants will still be clean, unless you sweat a great deal, in which case, you’d have to clean the pants regardless of whether you were wearing panties or not.
Skirts are more of an issue. If it’s a short skirt, I won’t go commando. Long skirt? Maybe. If it’s not windy out.
I grew up wearing underwear to bed, while my mom did not. I’m not sure why she thought I needed to but she didn’t, but she didn’t treat it like “oh my gawd, put on some panties, you little slut!” It just wasn’t discussed much.
Now, I usually wear underwear to bed (I get cold without it!), but I often don’t wear anything under skirts. The reason for this is actually related to the reason that I actually LOVE thongs (sorry Becky!): I’m a lady whose booty is a good bit bigger than the rest of her, and it has always been extremely frustrating to find full-coverage undies that fit comfortably. If they fit the cheeks, they’re too bit in the waistband/hips area, and if they fit there, the cheeks are uncomfortably squeezed (with, of course, the “unsightly” panty line). The thong was a revolution for me–and frankly, once I discovered cotton ones, I never went back. If you wear them for even a few days, they stop feeling odd, and if you make sure to get cotton, I’d venture to say that they’re never more uncomfortable than any other underwear that might occasionally bunch.
I occasionally wear boy-shorts (usually if I have my period), but after years of sporting nearly-commando thongs, they feel bulky and uncomfortable. I would just go entirely commando all the time, but, well, I think pants are uncomfortable against my ladyparts. So, to sum up: skirts = nothing; pants = thongs, which is to say, the next best thing.
Back when, a friend’s mother used to say: “Don’t change your clothes again, you haven’t farted in those clothes twice!” I remember howling with laughter at that comment.
I should probably add that I sleep in socks (!) and full regalia because I have bad circulation and wake up cold otherwise. Oh, and I like to sleep in tanks with built-in bras, because I don’t like flopping.
And about the washing – that’s kind of what I thought, and would be another concern for me. I’d rather have to put underwear in the wash every day than sweats, because I have to pay each time I do a load, and I can cram a lot more underwear in the machine than sweatpants!
I wore underwear to bed but I def. knew people who didn’t. I think I asked my mom about it once and she was like, “whatever, do what you want,” but by then it felt weird to go to sleep sans underwear.
I don’t wash my sweats each time, except for the undershirt and underwear. Depending on the sweat, of course. Sometimes in wintertime I do loads of laundry composed of socks, underwear, undershirts and camisoles only.
bras too
I never go commando! And I’ve never slept in the nude. Like you, Endora, I usually wear lots of clothing to bed, including socks because my feet are always freezing. Sometimes I’ll go commando under my shorts/pants for sleep-time but it’s not a habit.
I don’t remember getting any instructions about underpants as a child but I remember always wearing them and it never even occurred to me that people slept naked on a regular basis until I talked about it with the other harpies.
@Joe: ok, that makes sense.
There’s a line in the 4th Harry Potter book in which wizards are wearing Muggle clothing so as to pass in the Muggle world. One old guy puts on a nightgown with nothing under it (for daytime public attire), and when his mistake is pointed out to him, he says “I like a healthy breeze around me privates!”.
Nekkid sleeping FTW! I wore nightgowns as a little girl, but as I got older, I guess I became a more active sleeper, and they’d get all bunched and twisted around my waist, so I stopped wearing them. I only wear clothes to bed if I’m REALLY cold, which doesn’t happen much in my apt. because of the overactive radiators.
I think Blondgrlz was onto something with her comment about parents freaking out when they knew their daughters were lying in bed sans panties because it might lead to exploration of the ladyparts. But really…a pair of panties is not going to do much to deter exploration.
@sarahMC: seriously. The only time I go without underwear is when I wear a bathing suit. Maybe this is TMI but after I do the sex times, the FIRST thing I do after is put my underwear back on.
I wear underwear out most of the time, but the only time I wear it to bed is when I’m on my period. Also, given my apartment is approximately the temperature of a sauna in the summer, naked sleeping happens. I mean, hell, the cat doesn’t care, my girlfriend definitely doesn’t mind, and its not like I go to get the mail nude.
Bluebears me too! I’m like OK move I’ve gotta find my undies.
I like spending time just hanging around nearly-naked at home, but I tend to put my undies on before I do any sitting or lying down. I guess I just want to keep the magic contained.
@sarahmc: lol. I like that explanation.
@SarahMC: Okay, now I’m picturing fireworks and fairy dust coming from your hoo-ha!
I don’t remember ever having a conversation about panties as a child. Then again, there are many important conversations left out of my adolescence.
I wear panties at all times. UNLESS I have on shorts or pj pants during bed time. I was a thong whore for most of my 20s. After turning 30, I like my boy-leg cotton thingies, thank you very much (good thing the boy enjoys them as well).
I have a sister who goes commando at ALL TIMES, which always kind of grossed me out. Jeans? Ouch. “That time”? Ew.
@Mel: I’m with you and PhDork on the panties-with-jeans. That seam can hurt if you don’t put something between it and your privates!
But I sometimes go commando during my period. I use a Diva cup, which never leaks on me, so panties are no more important than at any other time of the month.
I always wore underwear until I moved in with my husband and discovered he was pretty much a nudist. He got home from work and out of his clothes immediately (to be fair, he’s a chemist, so even in the hottest part of summer, clothes included long pants and close-toed shoes). I got used to less and less clothing until we had a kid, and now we’ve eased into more and more clothing as he gets older and asks questions (and, once as I was getting dressed, he followed me around the room, poking my bottom, chanting “Butterflies! Butterflies!” because my underwear had a pretty pattern).
I must say, going to bed without underwear was a revelation. I can’t believe how much cleaner and dryer and more comfortable I feel down there if I let my girl parts breathe at night. It always reminds me of the Handmaid’s Tale when they talk about crotch rot, but I think it’s true!
@Endora – it takes me until like late June to stop wearing socks to bed. My boyfriend is completely mystified by this, he takes off his socks as soon as he gets inside at all times of the year. But my feet get so cold! And then I wake up too early.
@Joe – I found out a couple years ago that there are brands of brief/boxer briefs aimed at gay men that have “support”. For a “visible bulge”. I did not know that some men preferred this given how loose many men wear their boxers and jeans. But I suppose that some guys do like some support.
@baraqiel: Yep, I know those briefs (usually 2Xist, although other brands have jumped on the bandwagon). They’re not just for teh gayz anymore. It’s basically the modern equivalent of the stuffed codpiece.
I would say that about half the guys I’ve dated prefer briefs or boxer briefs for support and because, as one put it, “I like to know exactly where everything is at all times.” Also, dudes who are into tight pants prefer them.
When I was a kid, I called my lady bits my “china,” which I now realize is a version of “va-china” in little kid speak. But I remember being confused as to why my peeing organ was named after a country. My mom told me that underwear to be wasn’t necessary, and that it was good to “air out” at night.
I hate sleeping naked. HATE. It makes me feel too hot. I hate (with a crazy-person passion) the feeling of skin-on-skin, like when my toes rest against each other I have to wiggle them, and when I lay on my side and the skin on my legs touches the other leg. It’s a very strange thing, I know. But the feeling of skin-on-skin makes me sweat, so I always need to wear a shirt to bed. Otherwise my boob-skin touches my stomach skin and I get twitchy. My partner doesn’t understand this (which is legitimate, because articulating it just now I realized how crazy I sound), and he’s from the south, where summers are much hotter than they are in the Great White North. He sleeps naked or next to naked all summer.
Going out, going commando makes me feel weird. Like I’m crossing the invisible but real social appropriate line, even if nobody else can tell. But lately I’ve just been so over bras, and now I wear tank tops instead, even though I pretty much have big boobs. My whole life, and occasionally still, being bra-less was painful because of the big boobness. But lately I’ve just totally given in to all the stereotypes of 2nd wave feminism: no bra, hairy armpits and hairy legs, no makeup. Only when I’m with my family do I concede some points (like I’ll probably shave before my very normal cousin’s wedding, in which I’m standing up).
I’m so jealous you got to hang out with Amanda Marcotte!!
I think snug drawers for dudes are good–if their junk is immobile (or close), then there’s less reason for a lot of fiddling and adjusting.
Naked sleeping is the best. When it’s super cold, I’ll bundle up, but otherwise, jammies are to be worn around the house and chucked immediately before slipping into bed. What can I say, I like to share “the magic.” I remember shucking the PJs early in high school and being really worried that my mom would find out. Not see me naked, but find out I slept naked. I guess I thought she’d think I was slutty?
And I am laughing my panty-covered-ass off at that picture of Jerry Van Dyke. If I didn’t already dislike the word “panties,” that sign would do it in.
There’s a zipper right in front of the penis in most pants. It ain’t fun to have jagged bits of metal run across your genitals, at least for most people.
Why there’s a social stigma; I dunno. Maybe the underpants industry ran some really effective ads back in the day. But “you’re supposed to” and “people will chastise you if you don’t” probably figure into it too.
I’m with SarahMc and BlueBears — put me in the Always Travels With Underpants At Night contingent.
I get cold. And I find pajamas too constricting, and always wear sleep shirts. And I don’t like the floor-length nightgowns (again, too constricting), so wandering around the house in an over-the-knee sleep shirt without something underneath is asking for exposure (and drafts).
I do go with cotton always, and lately embraced the full coverage brief. They’re not as matronly as they used to be — no creepy “flesh” tones or tummy panels. I found some really cute ones at Target in all kinds of bright colors for less than a buck a pair. For a starving journalist in a recession, that’s a bargain!
@Brian: point taken.
My brother and I both slept in just our underpants as kids — we hated pyjamas, they were too hot. And most of the time, because we lived in the country, we’d get up, get some cereal, and go outside to play, still in our our underpants. Like, until lunch. I still remember being bummed when I had to start wearing a shirt, and being mortified when P. showed our xmas morning pictures on the schoolbus — both of us, in underpants only. I was in third grade. That was a tough week. But my parents thought kids weren’t sexual, and so nakedness was never an issue. The only hippy thing about them, actually.
I got the message as a kid (don’t remember, must have been from my mom) about not wearing underwear at night. It was important to let those parts “breathe” or something. I still work that way today… yes during the day (except when I don’t get dressed or where sweats or something), no at night.
I was a naked child, but im only sans underwear in the house altought bra-less all the time (small boobs, i don’t care being called hippie) and most of the time i have pijamas on (Nicaragua is a really HOT dusty, humid country). Actually i think the main reason i wear underwear is because i sweat so much, and here houses don’t have central A/C, we pretty much are used to 30ºC+ temperatures, even in the nightime we are 20ºc+, sometimes i sleep naked, and a lot of friends get weirded out by this.
@BeckySharper Becky, I’ve come to break the WASP stereotype! My mom is as WASPy as they come (raised in CT, boarding school, ancestry dating back to John Winthrop), and she doesn’t wear underwear to bed! Never has.
My personal preference is to wear underwear most of the time, but often not when I go to bed. I waffle between microfiber and cotton, always hipster or boyshort. Sometimes Spanx, because, well, they’re still more comfortable than a thong, and have the added bonus of smoothing my bumps (as well as being invisible under most clothes).
count me in the folks who wear ridiculous layers to bed. half the time i just fall asleep wearing whatever i had on that day –jeans, sweater, tights, whatever. my partner hates it and thinks it shows some deep pathology on my part. i actually can’t even imagine sleeping naked or hanging out naked. i don’t feel free, i feel exposed and vulnerable and physicall uncomfortable. cimorene i totally share your skin on skin skeeviness, can’t fall asleep cuddling with anyone or even touching, and absolutely cannot sleep without at least a sheet covering me. it may be deep-seated uptightness and prudery, but it feels really physical rather than psychological — not that one can reliably tell the difference some of the time.
i do go without undies sometimes, but only and exclusively if all mine are dirty.
in general i am pretty grody.
Before reading this post I had never even heard the suggestion that you should wear underwear when you sleep and I certainly had no idea that there were people who would judge you for not doing so.
Now that I think about it, my mom didn’t have anything to say that I can remember on the sleeping-in-underpants question, but she was firm on not wearing a bra to bed. She said it wasn’t good for your breasts. Of course, this was when bras were a lot more structured than they are now.
Did anyone else’s mom tell them that?
@MM: Ugh, I can’t imagine sleeping in a bra. How uncomfortable. Then again, I’m a member of the IBTC, so maybe my larger-chested sisters might want the support. Still…ugh. The last thing I want when I sleep is more elastic encircling me.
I am so late to the pants party, but I always wore underpants as a kid because we were Not A Naked House. I used to love being in just a t-shirt and panties, but once I started to hit puberty my mom told me I had to wear pants (my teenage brother, meanwhile, spends his life in pajama pants with no shirt on – double standard much?!)
These days I might wear pjs without undies, but I never go commando in clothes – I prefer the feel of cotton to any of the various fabrics one usually wears on the lower half…
@Becky @MM People …of my acquaintance…, with bigger tits, wear bras to bed.
As a teen, my mother would pitch a serious fit if I left the house without a bra, and really, my tits aren’t all that big.
She would say “Your tits will hang down like Raquel’s!” It took me a long time to figure out who Raquel even was. It’s Raquel Welch! As if I knew her personally.
Naked sleeper here! My mom was a big believer in letting the ladyparts be free and uncovered. As a kid I wore a nightgown, but the only time I routinely wore underwear to bed was in college when I lived in the dorms.
During the day, I usually wear underwear unless I really need to do laundry, it’s really hot out, or I’m expecting to have a bedroom romp in the very near future. I’m not a big fan of pants seams in my ladyparts. I’ll make an exception if I’ve just showered at the gym and don’t have a clean pair of underwear with me, and then I’ll go commando.
@rodriguez – I don’t know, I am…more endowed in the chestular area than I sometimes wish to be and the only days I wear any sort of support to bed is shelf-bra camisoles when I’m tender before my period. But it is bad for you to sleep in a bra! There are tendons (ligaments?) that atrophy, or so I’ve heard.