HOLY SHIZZNIT! Via Christopher Ware @ Flickr.
A few weeks ago, PhDork, Pilgrim Soul and I met fellow fem-blogger Amanda Marcotte for some drinks and a mountain of fries at a local bar. Amanda happened to walk in right as Tha Dork and I were chatting gaily about how, as kids, we received conflicting messages about whether we should wear panties or not, and when and what kind, etc. This is a fairly typical conversation in Harpyland, and bless Amanda, she rolled with it, even though she had never met us before and probably wondered WTF was up with these women talking about their panties in public.
It was a lighthearted conversation, but the wearing of underwear, like so many things involving women’s clothing and women’s private parts, is fraught with socio-cultural bullshit. Some are just plain ridiculous, but some can be pretty damaging. Join me and PhDork as we discuss feminism and the politics of panties.
Full disclosure: I’m not wearing any as I write this (but I am wearing a sweatsuit, since it’s cold in my apartment.)
BeckySharper: I distinctly remember MamaSharper saying when I was very young that I didn’t need to wear panties to bed at night. I don’t remember exactly how it was phrased, but it was something like “your vagina doesn’t like to be covered all the time.” Heh. True on so many levels!
PhDork: I don’t remember hearing anything from my mom about not wearing knickers, and I pretty much always had them on, unless I had a swimsuit on, which was a lot of the time when I was a kid (I was on teams from ages 5-12). She did seem to be concerned about that, and about wearing cotton panties. I remember hearing from her that synthetic fibers would give me “infections.” I had no idea what she was talking about.
BeckySharper: I still pledge allegiance to the cotton briefs, myself. Your mom was right–synthetics are just asking for trouble, particularly if one is prone to yeast. And thongs are…well, we know how I feel about thongs. They’re only as a last resort if I can’t go commando.
PhDork: Definitely commando rather than a thong. And whenever you feel like it. Snug jeans = panties, fer shure, though. I mostly have microfiber, since they’re stretchy and comfy and aren’t likely to show under anything drapy or clingy. Also good to travel with, since you can wash them out in a sink and they’ll dry overnight.
BeckySharper: As a kid, going commando was totally acceptable at my house. My very proper grandma was not happy when she found this out–I think she was getting me ready for bed one night and I picked out a nightgown to wear but no panties, and then explained that “Mommy said I shouldn’t wear panties at night.” My mother and I still joke about the consternation that ensued when Grandma realized that I had been running around the house with no panties under my (floor length flannel) nightgown. Grandma and Mama had a Big Discussion about this and it was decided that I would wear panties at Grandma’s house at all times–even under the long nighties–but could take them off at bedtime.
PhDork: I did have a grade school friend, Lisa, who was like you–no panties at night. The first time I slept over at her house and her mother came in and asked “Lisa, did you take your panties off?” I was shocked. Why would you need to take off your panties at night?
BeckySharper: That happened to me in college, when the nice Southern Baptist girls in my dorm learned that not only did I not wear underwear at night, but I walked down the hall to the showers in my calf-length fuzzy bathrobe with no panties on. I mean, the robe was about as concealing as a wool overcoat, but somehow the knowledge that my ladyflower was just breezin’ around, uncovered, underneath it was horrifying to them. It was like they expected it to leap out and attack passers-by.
PhDork: Well, it does have nasty pointy teeth.
BeckySharper: True. And it doesn’t like Southern Baptists! I think our popular culture really does believe that a woman’s privates must be wrapped at all times or bad things will happen. Remember when Sharon Stone uncrossed her legs in “Basic Instinct?” The audience knew immediately that she must be a crazed, stabby nymphomaniac because she wasn’t wearing any panties! QED!
PhDork: There is a weird double-standard about going without undies. For dudes, “commando,” and “free-ballin” means you’re kinda badass-adventure-y or XTREEM! A woman sans undies is a tuh-ramp, askin’ fer it, or “dirty.”
BeckySharper: So true about the “asking for it.” I confess, I’ve had times where I felt paranoid and worried that if I were the victim of a sex crime, some sleazy defense attorney would undoubtedly cross-examine me by asking “Well, you weren’t wearing panties, were you?” And some jurors might actually buy it: Oh, well, she went out of the house without her cotton-and-elastic chastity belt, so she must have been asking for it!
Ladies, do you go commando? What kind of messages did you get about underwear as a child? Do those messages still rattle around in your mind as adults?
Also, whenever I sleep naked I inevitably dream about /being/ naked and trying to cover myself up, so a t-shirt is just more restful
@baraqiel To each his own I guess, but I am interested in the idea that a night-time bra habit may be damaging.
I don’t think it can possibly be a question of either tendons or ligaments, both of which are cartilage that either suspend muscle from bone (tendon) or link bone to bone (ligament). So a breast doesn’t fit either bill.
There may be some connective tissue that either benefits or suffers from the regular use of a bra, besides skin. Either it 1) gets worn out supporting heavy breasts without a bra or 2) gets a certain amount of pressure relieved when you take the bra off. But I don’t know what that tissue might be and how this effect might work. Anatomy people out there?
@rodriguez: There is a school of thought that says that sleeping in bras or in some kind of supportive garment prevents sagging because the breasts are always supported and therefore there’s less stretching of the connective tissues that keep the girls ridin’ high.
Could be an old wives’ tale, though. I’ve never heard any scientific opinion on it.
I’ve heard that sleeping in a bra can cause cancer because it stops toxins from flowing out of your breasts. I only just realised how weird and implausible that sounds.
I’ve never even considered not wearing underpants. I wear them pretty much all the time. The only time I don’t, really, is the odd time when my boyfriend stays over, but even he usually gets the be-panted me. I wonder why, I genuinely don’t feel ‘safe’ if I’m wearing just PJs in the house with no underwear. Like my curtains might suddenly open and my trousers might drop at the same time.
@PhDork, annimal
Naked sleeper too! But I converted as an adult. I think I shared the same fears of PhDork of being discovered or suddenly becoming slutty. I actually think it’s warmer than sleeping with lots of clothes. It’s certainly less annoying.
Oh, I go commando all the time. But then, my mom used to pee with the bathroom door open and walk around the house completely naked on a regular basis, so there you go. Thankfully, I managed to grow up without many hangups about my anatomy.
I started sleeping sans undies when I was about 12 or so, and once I hit about 15, I started sleeping naked. I find it far more comfortable, especially because the blankets I use on my bed are very soft. Also, I move around a lot in my sleep, so if I wear anything (but especially a long nightie or pants), I end up all tangled up. Also, I walk around my apartment naked whenever I can get away with it (ie, when the roomies are out of town).
@Nicola: I’ve heard that too, and never put much stock in it. Coincidentally, the New York Times ran a piece in the Health section today that debunks the “bras lead to breast cancer” myth once and for all:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/the-myth-of-bras-and-breast-cancer/
My mother never wears underwear to bed, I don’t remember what she taught me about it though. She did, however, tell me not to wear a bra to bed. I used to all the time, but now it’s too uncomfortable.
I used to wear panties all the time, but now I hardly ever do, unless I’m wearing a short skirt.
Ahhh the panties. When I was completely poor and trying to settle into my new job I realized that one thing I was almost out of was underwear but “nice” underwear was completely too expensive!
I resented the idea of shelling out 40$ on a bra and anything else so I took the sad amount I had and bought socks from walmart. I wore what I had and when it was dirty I went without and realized how liberating it was. It felt I’m not kidding like my own personal little secret. No matter who said what to me they had NO IDEA what was going on under my clothing. So I still own underwear but some days I can’t be bothered with it and that suits me just fine.
I do wear panties, mostly because I just find them more comfortable and I get to wear my bottoms more before washing them. I go commando to bed, I hate wearing pj’s; I also find they don’t keep me any warmer and they get tangled. Also if you keep a natural bush the hair can get pinched between your thighs if you wear nothing and that tends to sting.
I grew up with a mom walking naked everywhere, leaving the bathroom door opened, etc… but I am the complete opposite. I can’t sleep without underpants and have never went out without them. I guess I just dont feel comfortable. I also always wear at least a cami under my shirt all times even though I rarely get cold.
A couple of years back a groups of us (all women) had a similar discussion one night at a studenty dinner party.
Somehow the discussion turned to underwear and underwear free days (the day when we didn’t wear underwear under our clothes). Underwear free days were commonly associated with needing to do some laundry.
It also turned out that all of us regularly had underwear free days (it didn’t matter what was worn as outer clothes – jeans, skirts, dresses).
Most of us slept/went to bed without underwear, so that our most covered and beloved parts could breathe and be unconfined.
I am also a member of the IBTC, so I enjoy sans bra! And really haven’t worn one regularly for a good long time. Though I did feel for a colleague who had to let me know that my “roseate tips” were showing in a light coloured shirt I was wearing one day.
I do remember my mum saying we shouldn’t wear underwear to bed, so that our ‘chinas could breathe. (As youngsters, my sisters and I had trouble saying vulva and vagina, but we all could say “china”).
I had this idea that our ladyparts were delicate and beautifully hand painted like the dinner sets mum had.
Hm. I know my mom doesn’t wear underwear to bed, only long nightshirts. I, on the other hand, do, because I usually wear pjs and want to be able to wear them more than one night (same goes for trousers during the day). I only own cotton panties, though, in combination with cloth pantiliners.
(Btw, once I had a bad yeast infection and the doctor forbade me to wear underwear or trousers – walking around in long skirts with nothing on was rather liberating, I must say! *g*)
I don’t wear a bra unless I’m doing an acting thingy and the role calls for it, but I’ve never considered not wearing underpants in public. It sounds pretty awesome though. Just a sec…. there! No underpants! Whoo-hoo!
I remember a nurse gave a talk at my school once and she got this snotty look on her face when I asked if one should forgo underpants at bed time. What I learned is that your vulva/cunt is bad and must be covered at all times! And until I read this article, it stuck with me. Thanks to you, my vagina now has a tale of freedom!!!
[...] No, we have to unbutton, unzip, drop trou or pull up our skirts and wrangle our panties around (or wear none at all). Under the best of circumstances, it takes longer for us to do our business than men (hence, the [...]
So happy to have found this! I gave up panties many years ago and cannot imagine not going commando anymore, but every time I come home to visit and my mom asks for my laundry and comments on the fact that I never have any underwear, she makes me feel so gross and abnormal. It is nice to know there are people out there who dont see a big problem with no undies!
I grew up around my mom being comfortable being naked in front of me and the bathroom door open peeing. But she didn’t really tell me not to ware underwear to bed. I am prone to yeast infections and she wasn’t so I think that is why she didn’t think to make it clear. I figured it out myself. I don’t ware underwear to bed unless they are new and clean and often if do that is all I ware on on the lower half. I wore bras to bed when I was younger for some reason even though my mom said I didn’t have to and didn’t know why I wanted too. But I do don’t anymore. It is not comfortable and can bend the under wire. I ware underwear during the day and sometimes I don’t. I feel comfortable both ways but I feel sometimes those external thoughts about not waring underwear out like I am somehow more vulnerable. Like somehow underwear offer some kind of protection. Underwear also keep any fluids from getting on clothes which is good too. But there needs to be air circulation too. I hate those ideas that women without underwear are somehow asking for it or are dirty! The history of the unmentionables is pretty messed up and interesting. How what we ware under our clothes can reflect so much about a culture and a period of time is pretty fascinating. A lot of the reasons why people wore underwear and still do today is really to protect their clothes from their sweat and other body fluids or secretions that could damage them. For example in the past corsets were only to be worn under clothes and they got dirty and stained. The undergarments that lay under what you saw served that purpose when baths were less frequent and or people were waring their best clothes and wanted to protect the nice undergarment from getting ruined and dirty to prolong its life. For example pantaloons, or drawers and knickers and combinations of those.