I mean, besides him...
From a recent “Ask Carolyn” column by Carolyn Hax:
Dear Carolyn:
The other day, the guy I’ve been out with exactly four times asked me for my “number.” (Not my phone number, the other one.) I was offended that he’d even ask at this early stage, so I didn’t tell him. Instead of respecting my privacy, he decided I must be embarrassed about my number or else I would tell him.
Is this thing DOA? I know asking that question is a no-no, but is it a deal-breaker? I’d almost be willing to tell him my number, which is normal, if it means getting past this awkwardness.
Louisville
Oh for the fuck of shit. I hate hate HATE “the number” question. But first, Carolyn’s answer:
Gah, no, don’t. It’s none of his damn business, but that’s not why this is DOA. It’s DOA because he didn’t respect your “no.”
It’s very important that you don’t cave in to people just because they make that the easier option for you. It is a classic form of manipulation: Ask for something you know isn’t yours to have, and then indicate that a refusal to comply will be punished — by blame, judgment, yelling, stony silence, accusations of ulterior motives that it never occurred to you to have. (You’re embarrassed?) Toddlers do it, adolescents do it, immature adults do it, and abusers do it.
So unless you want to be in a relationship with a toddler, an adolescent, a boundary-challenged man-child or an abuser, please tell him you’re not interested in seeing him anymore.
Carolyn’s right on with that advice, IMO, particularly with regard to the way that the dude pressured the woman to give up her number of sexual partners, as though he had a right to know, and he was going to find a way to make her tell him even if she was reluctant.
The whole question of “the number” came up in a Sex and the City episode where Miranda attempts–and fails–to figure out exactly how many men she’s slept with. The title of the episode is, tellingly, “Are We Sluts?”
That’s where “the number” conversation is nearly always heading: 100% good ol’-fashioned slut-shaming. I believe very strongly that we should never feel obligated to open ourselves up to shaming, so if you’re asked the question the way that woman was, don’t feel you need to answer it. Frankly, unless you are a bride about to hand over that ring Daddy gave you at the Purity Ball, the number is probably going to be an issue. If it weren’t, he never would have asked in the first place.
I have been confronted with “the number” question a time or two, and I usually just ask the dude directly “Why do you want to know that?” Once or twice it’s been a harmless, not-very-deft segue into the safe sex discussion. In that case I usually just say “Oh, I always have safe sex. And don’t worry–we’ll use condoms.” No need for them to know the specifics–the actual number of partners I’ve had is irrelevant. Sure, there have been a few lovers with whom I’ve discussed numbers to simply because we’re comfortable and curious and I know they won’t judge me if we compare notes (yes, there are men out there who are non-judgmental about women’s sex lives). Mostly, though, I just avoid the question entirely; I also don’t ask it.
Sometimes, though, “the number” question can’t be avoided. Then it’s okay to Be A Bitch.
For example, about 10 years ago, I was on a third date with a very attractive man. There was a lot of flirtation, and kissing, and then he asked, “Have you slept with many men in New York?”
Huh? I decided to make a joke of it, “You mean, as compared to sleeping with men in other cities?”
“No, I mean, have you slept with a lot of men? Like, how many?”
I pulled back, gave him the Frosty Eye of Death and said, “Enough.”
He stared back quizzically, and then repeated, “Enough?”
“Yes,” I told him, “I’ve slept with enough men.” I mentally filled in the rest of that sentence, which was “…to know that you will not be among them.”
Eiither he read my mind or he figured that my non-disclosure was a sign of incorrigible sluttiness, because the date ended shortly thereafter and I did not hear from him again.
Do I know the exact number of men I’ve slept with? Yep. Would it matter if I had totally forgotten how many or never bothered to count? Nope. And I’d be perfectly happy if none of us ever had to have “the number” conversation ever again.
*I realize this is a totally heteronormative relationship discussion…it seems to me that this particular issue is full of gender norms and stereotypes that mainly afflict heteros. Does “the number” come up for gay women? Is it fraught with the same baggage? Would be curious to hear commentary from lesbian/bisexual readers.
I heart me some Carolyn Hax.
Yeah, me too. She’s the best advice columnist out there, IMO. Way, way better than stuffy, dull Prudence or that evil rape apologist/victim-blamer, Amy Dickinson (who is dead to me).
If someone is asking that question, they’ve already begun defining you as a slut. There’s no good reason to bring it up unless you suspect their number falls outside whatever range you deem “acceptable.”
I’m bi and have been with a (nearly) even number of men and women. Here’s what I’ve experienced about this question:
1. Dudes ask earlier and more often.
2. Dudes, even when they know I’m bi, still frame the question as “How many MEN have you slept with?” They often either believe my bisexuality is a fairytale, or they’re out to slut-shame and the number of women I’ve been with just isn’t relevant to the shaming.
2b. The same dudes who don’t particularly care how many women I’ve SLEPT WITH do care how many women I’ve been in a RELATIONSHIP with. Because having a relationship with another woman – rather than just casual sex – makes me gay automatically, even once I’ve explained to them that I’m bi. Casual sex with another woman = sexy fodder for male fantasy. Relationship with another woman = totally gay and therefore not at all sexy.
3. Most of the women I’ve been with have also been bi. A few ask about numbers as part of a sexy-foreplay thing, but only after we were comfortable enough with one another (as Becky says in her post) to know that the question was an acceptable one.
4. I was with one lesbian who asked about numbers – specifically numbers of men – fairly early on. When I asked why she wanted to know, she said she was suspicious of bi girls who would only have LTRs with men, and would only have flings with women. I understood her worry, but I told her I didn’t think knowing numbers would really help her know whether we were a compatible couple.
5. None of the other lesbians I’ve been with have asked. In general, in my experience, women were FAR less likely to ask than men. I chalk this up to women’s being more sensitive to slut-shaming, but it could also be that I’ve just dated some really lame guys.
Even when I started having sex, this was the Big Question in relationships. To be contrary, from my very first time I have refused to count my number of sexual partners. If my brain tries to do it, I have got very good at the mental equivilent of sticking my fingers in my ears and going ‘la la la’.
Hilariously (or sickeningly), despite the fact this is the blatant truth – this has resulted in many a potential partner being shocked and actually outraged that I do not know and thus cannot give him access to the knowledge he is entitled to, i.e. how many guys have ‘been there’ before him. (This is inevitably the same kind of guy who thinks ‘being with girls doesn’t count’).
Happily for me, this reaction is my own personal sign of a DOA relationship.
Another aspect I hate about the number question (agreeing with everything you’ve said Becky,) is what is even included in the “number?” Is it strictly PIV? Oral? Do I count every guy I’ve seen naked?
From conversations I’ve had with male friends about the question, they tend to think that only PIV sex should be included, so again, the question really seems to limit a hetero woman’s sexuality to what men deem “real” sex.
You know, reading this it just occurred to me that I have no idea how many women my husband has slept with, nor does he know my number, and we’ve been married almost 8 years.
I mean, I know of some of the women. Probably the majority, possibly all of them. But I don’t know with any certainty, and I really don’t care.
I’m trying to remember, and I think I’ve discussed every relationship that included sex with him, but I’m not sure, nor do I care. Nor do I think he cares. We’ve talked about previous relationships because we’ve talked about our lives. But I don’t think I ever sat down and said, well there was Barry when I was 16 and then Nathan and then . . .
If for no other reason than that sounds like a boring conversation.
On the heteronormative front, I have a bi friend and in her experience, women only care about the number of women and men only care about the number of men. I don’t know if one gender cares more than the other though.
Would an acceptable answer to the question be “All of them”?
@EskimoPie: From conversations I’ve had with male friends about the question, they tend to think that only PIV sex should be included, so again, the question really seems to limit a hetero woman’s sexuality to what men deem “real” sex.
So true. Although that aspect of the discussion always puts me in mind of this classic scene from the movie “Clerks”.
That’s a really good point, EskimoPie. Without question, the hottest, sexiest night of my life was a one-night stand that did not include PIV sex. Until you said this, I wouldn’t have included it in the number I just started counting in my head, which shows how much I’ve let my sex life be defined by the patriarchy.
I find that question to be a sign of huge insecurity. Whenever men worry that a woman they’re attracted to has slept with a lot of other dudes, it’s because they’re scared she’s going to judge their performance and find it lacking (in my experience). And because these guys are probably also of the type that don’t consider female pleasure to be a part of hetero sex, oh how lacking it would be.
I love “enough” as an answer. I’ve been asked by a few dudes in my life, all before I was self-possessed enough to know that it was ok to refuse to answer the question. Thankfully, the dude I am with now has always maintained that it is none of his business–even when that particular SATC reruns on cable–which was very refreshing to me.
This isn’t quite the same, but I’ve been asked about my number far more frequently by Platonic girlfriends…and, funnily enough, it makes me ridiculously uncomfortable. I think it’s usually intended as a kind of light-hearted, just-us-girls chatty thing, but it often comes up in the context of them finding out that, while I’ve been in a LTR with the same dude for as long as they’ve known me, I (gasp!) used to sleep with other people, or that I identify as queer. Then it becomes a how-many-dudes/how-many-ladies thing, which makes me feel like I’m facing a True Sexuality test.
But maybe that’s just the feeling of getting called out for passing-as-hetero?
I DETEST this question. It’s like the gateway to sexual conversation hell.
I always love that when a man is asked this question it involves high-fives and if there is a woman in the room all conversation stops to hear her number. You can almost see the leering either from slut-shaming or the thoughts that she must be easy and would then not say no when a crude invite comes up later.
The “enough” answer sounds like the best I have heard so far. This reminds me of a line I heard in a sitcom: “Its been my experience if a chick will take it up the back there isn’t much she WONT say no to.” I can’t remember what show it was but I recall the assumption turning my stomach about as much as the number conversation.
My ex-boyfriend volunteered his number (high), and then when I mentioned the (high) number later on he denied it and claimed a new number (less high). I still don’t know exactly what was going on with that, but he seemed to think that his number was potentially shameful.
I have lesbian friends who have talked about “gold star” status, i.e. a lesbian who has not ever had sexual contact with a man. I assume this indicates that some lesbians feel pretty serious pressure w/r/t their “number” or “star status” or whatever. Anyone else hear of this?
I’ve been asked by a couple partners, but it was a long time ago (when I was twenty-something), and most of the men who asked were doing from a place of insecurity, and I too was too young and unaware to realize I could refuse to answer. Now that I’m in my 30s it doesn’t seem to be such a big deal anymore. None of my recent partners have asked early on, though sometimes we’ve talked about it later in an amicable, curious way. Though I stopped counting a long time ago and frankly couldn’t tell you my number.
@ Kari
I was seeing a guy who did something similar. At a party when I was deep in conversation with the only other lady present one of his friends asked that question. I wasn’t paying too much attention until the high-fives started. The other chick and I stopped talking to see what the hoo-ha was about and another dude present repeated my dudes number and quickly filled us in on what we had missed.
I hadn’t gotten involved with him physically yet and the self-important leer he shot me ran over my nerves. I am ashamed to admit my very loud and very public comment was, “Thats fucking disgusting.” His face fell and everyone stared at me for a few seconds before the fellow menz started defending him. Luckily for me the girl I was talking to commented that if we had shared something like that the men present would have had a similar reaction even if they didn’t verbalize it. I am embarassed to admit that I had shit on the party atmosphere. He (Mr. Go-get’em) pulled me aside as soon as everyone had calmed down to frantically convince me that he hadn’t been with THAT many and besides, “Shouldnt I be pleased that he obviously KNEW what he was doing?” and “Wasnt that why I was with him? Because he was a real man?”
It didn’t go anywhere after that.
I haven’t used it before, but I think a truthful answer would be: I haven’t slept with every person I wanted to, or with every person who wanted to sleep with me.
Great answer, bella.
I don’t remember any significant “number conversations.” I’m sure the Dude and I have talked it over at some point, but I can’t remember. I certainly don’t remember his number. I don’t remember it mattering.
And EskimoPie beat me to the punch. I’m not sure of mine, either. I could make a fair guess if we’re talking PIV, but once we involve oral (giving/receiving/both), or other significant sexual contact? All I know is that the number would go WAY up.
The other part that makes me nutz is that the NUMBER is more important than the CONTEXT–what about people who have been raped or otherwise sexually abused (which, as we know, if a whole lot of people)? Another way for women to get blamed and shamed. Fuck that noise.
It’s DOA because he didn’t respect your “no.”
I’m so delighted she said that!
I tend not to think about The Number because the people most concerned with The Number usually define sex as PIV. Any act in which a man’s penis is not the center of attention doesn’t count. “Gah” is right.
It occurs to me that another problem with this question is how it ignores/mistreats/erases women who have survived sexual assault. I am a 2-time survivor, and anytime a guy has asked me for a number I always quietly wonder, “Do you count it if it wasn’t consensual?” I mean, I know that that possibility probably just doesn’t occur to them… but when you’re asking someone to recount their entire sexual history for you, you’re opening up a big ol’ can of worms.
Step 1: Make obvious joke about Av0gadro’s number
Step 2: Dodge rotten fruit
ok, sorry, @PhDork, you made the point for me while I was typing! So I guess, I should just say: What PhDork said!
dillene, I love you and I promise not to throw fruit. Also, no matter what kind of sexual contact we’re counting, I guarantee that my number is not as large as Av0gadro’s number.
I’ve only been asked once, and it was by a guy who had so little business asking the question — a drunken makeout session that I did not ever intend to have sex with — that I couldn’t help myself. I gave him a tremulous smile and said, “I was hoping you’d be the first.”
Unfortunately, his look of shock/terror did me in and I couldn’t keep up the charade. Totally ruined the mood when I couldn’t stop laughing for 15 minutes.
@dillene bwaaaahahahahahah! I am so sorry I did not say that!
I have a question for the crowd:
Although I hate to admit it, I don’t like to hook up with boys who have a low number. I don’t ask outright, but if it seems that they are inexperienced it is a bit of a dealbreaker for me. I’m sure I would make an exception if someone was rock awesome, but is this an opposite and equally shit standard that I am holding the men to? What do you think? If you were talking to a guy who turned out to be a virgin or close to, would it affect your desire to “get to know” them?
@bellacoker: I understand the impetus, but I have to say that I’ve had BAD experiences with both super-experienced and near-virginal dudes. The dudes I was with who were less experienced ( they volunteered their own numbers, even after I told them I didn’t want to know) were VERY self-conscious about that inexperience, and I think that the self-consciousness caused the problem more than the number itself.
I’ve heard dudes say shit things about “sluts”, but in my case, I personally got shaming from dudes for admitting not to being very sexually experienced (I’m a woman in my 30s). Also some shaming from women.
Bellacoker – sorry, but you can’t have it both ways and it would be great if you look into your biases (as you are doing) and ask yourself how much you are affected by antiquated ideas of males as wanting to spread their seed.
I’m a woman in my 30s and I don’t think I have quite the same pressure that men face to be sexually experienced – after all, the patriarchy prefers female virgins and mocks male virgins.
But none the less, let me tell you, it can feel horrible to be told you’re rejected because you don’t have enough experience. For me, it’s part of rape culture – I am forced to put out a minimum to be ‘legitimate’.
Personally I’m ok with it when it happens to me b/c their reaction is a way to weed out shit dudes, but it doesn’t make it less superficial and cruel. And if a dude isn’t offended by it, it’s probably only because he is dismissing you as a shit. Sorry, just being honest.
Queen_George -
I know! Same with me! I never know which is worse – say I’m a virgin or say, “I slept with 5 men but they all raped me”. Huh? WTF?
Another pet peeve is ‘who was your first time was with’. You have no idea how many times I’m tempted to say, “with my dad. so screw you”.
Occasional:
That may be true. I am both prejudice and sexist because it’s impossible to swim without getting wet. But I also know that the world is not black and white. I don’t think that men have to have multiple partners in order to be acceptable, but I also know that most of the men in the world are not going to be an acceptable partners for me for different and various reasons. Some of those preferences are going to be based on prejudice and some of them are just going to be preferences, I am interested in discovering how to tell the difference.
@bellocoker
I think you are going about this the right way; realizing your own prejudices can be a very powerful tool. Of course the difficult part is when you attempt to change those assumptions. I wish you luck on that endeavour.
Who can remember whole decades of their lives, I mean some of us might have to estimate their ‘number’ plus or minus 10 etc. Is it a myth women prefer not to be with ‘beginners’, therefore might ask the number question more than men even?
@bella: To answer your question: I think it might give me pause, but it wouldn’t turn me off completely. Yes, experience does tend to make a difference when it comes to skills, but not always. I have been with men whose “number” is in the single digits who were fantastic lovers and with men in their 40s who had slept with dozens of women who were kinda lousy. Also, his number might be low because he’d been in a long-term monogamous relationship, and I wouldn’t hold that against him.
It just depends on the person, and anyway, we should be looking at the person, not the number. If you’re attracted to him and he seems like a good candidate, go for it!
Bella–Number doesn’t really correspond with experience anyway, so don’t be fooled. He might have had sex with only one woman, but 1,000 times; better than being with 6 women once, but he might come off as inexperienced simply because he isn’t so good with the lead-up with a new person rather than because he won’t know what he’s doing when he gets there.
So it’s not only bad to judge for reasons previously mentioned, but it’s also just bad math.
@BeckySharper
You bring up a very good point. Just because it’s not Above a certain number doesn’t tell you about the amount of experience. It’s very generalized to think that a persons “number” means only having sex once with that person as being “counted”. What then if you’ve had sex with 30 people, but someone says 7 and that might mean at least ten times with each of those 7? The question for the purpose of finding experienced partners is worded wrong I think. And of it’s for slut-shaming it’s STILL worded wrong!
Or I agree with DangerMouse. I realized I just beat that dead horse.
@BeckyS: Going back to your post, I think that your response is the perfect one. The question “why do you ask” is the best response to a rude, overly intrusive question under any circumstances (thanks, Miss Manners!). And asking it might lead to a very valuable conversation.
Yup, I was gonna chime in too with the logical fallacy of the number equaling experience. I have a single digit number, even couting oral and manual stimulation, due to being in long term monogamous relationships. But keeping the passion alive for ten years with the same person requires a lot of experimentation and variety. My current lover is certainly not complaining!
Agreed with DangerMouse and BeckySharper re: irrelevance of number of partners. Also, I find that my experience is influenced more by my partner’s willingness to please (versus viewing sex as all about him and his pleasure), than by his sheer experience level. I dated one guy who was a virgin when we met. The initial process was awkward, and it took him *months* to even get up the nerve to kiss me, but once we finally got physical he was so eager to please that he ended up being a fantastic lover (to my surprise, actually). On the other hand I’ve dated guys whose numbers are way up in the double or even triple digits who were ultra-charming and had the lead-up part down pat, but in bed just didn’t give a da** and were horrible lovers.
So, yeah…what Becky said
@ yvanehtnioj: that is brilliant!
I was only asked this question by people who pushed for an answer when I was pretty young (under 20) and what these guys really wanted to know was if I was a virgin. These were guys that I was in a casual relationship with, who most certainly did not want to be the first – because they didn’t want me to fall in love with them.
In my opinion, making assumptions like those is just as big in the patriarchy as slut-shaming.
I wish that I had possessed the confidence and forsight to reply the way you did, instead of getting embarassed and telling them it was none of their business (I was a PIV virgin at the time).
In my current long term relationship, we’ve discussed it in a no-pressure, talking generally about our lives, kind of way. And perhaps also for some friendly competition. But there was no obligation, in fact I’m pretty sure that he said he didn’t need to know.
Pretty much straight ‘ditto’ to Queen_George – thankfully the question hasn’t come up often, but the dudes often discount the ladies, and relationships are icky and scary, but casual sex is hawt. (Obviously, this is only true for the douchebags.)
Kari, thankfully the ‘gold star’ issue hasn’t come up for me, largely because I’m close to obnoxious about being clear that I’m bi. I ran into some pretty virulent anti-bi sentiment back in the day, and have chosen this route to avoid misunderstandings. One thing I’ve always wondered, though – when is the gold star revoked? PIV only, or any ‘sexual’ contact? Seems pretty twisted to define sex by PIV standards if you’re coming at it from this angle…
Just to play devil’s advocate here…
I have no problem telling anybody my number. And here’s why: If someone is going to judge me negatively for what I do in the privacy of my bedroom, then I don’t want to associate with him or her anyway.
Of course, I’m not going to go telling my boss or my parents how many people I’ve had sex with. But if a friend asks, or if a potential romantic interest asks, I’ll probably be upfront and tell them. If they start judging me, they can expect a pretty stern lecture from me about shaming people based on their individual sexual experience. If they still insist on judging me after that…bye bye.
However, I certainly applaud the notion that you shouldn’t HAVE to tell your number to anyone if you don’t want to. But I just wish we were at a place where the number of people you’ve been with just doesn’t matter in the first place.
@rossignol – “But I just wish we were at a place where the number of people you’ve been with just doesn’t matter in the first place.”
Yeah, that’s why I think people take a dim view of being asked that question in the first place. If it doesn’t matter (and it shouldn’t), and it’s none of their business (and it’s not), then why are they asking?
@rossignol: I hear ya. There’s always an angry, contrarian part of me that–when anticipating the slut-shaming–wants to say: “You really want to know? Well, I fucked 20,000 dudes…and YOUR MOM.”
But I find that if someone is asking with the intention of slut-shaming, it’s actually more aggravating and frustrating for them if I DON’T tell them the number. Then they don’t actually have anything to judge and they get angry and stew about it, which is what they deserve for being judge-y. Sometimes withholding is the best revenge!
@BeckySharper
Or it backfires. The ideal situation would be someone throws out their number to try to entice you to tell your and you just sit there and smile.
Imagine how frustrating!