Anyway, I’m off for the night!

I think you’re right that in general outspokeness is rewarded in America but understatement goes over better in Britain. Normal American-style tooting your own horn, complaining, telling someone off, etc. is much dicier in the UK, as you know. So some of that difference is undoubtedly cultural, not gender-based.

What I do notice, though, is that when I visit London with my male US colleagues, my asserting myself in a meeting, or contradicting someone, seems to create more discomfort than when the male Americans do the exact same thing. Tough American businessman? Hard-charging cowboy! Tough American businesswoman? Shrill harpy!

That’s definitely a gender issue. The male-to-female gender ratio is about the same in both US and UK companies in my industry, but when I’ve been in meetings, the women speak up WAY less in London than they do in New York, and the Mansplaining from male execs seems much louder and less openly challenged in London.

I’ve been queried about jobs in London a few times, and given it serious consideration, but one of the things that kept bothering me was that aspect of UK corporate culture. I’m popular with my UK colleages, who find my outspokenness sort of refreshing and enjoyable, but I suspect that’s only because I’m a visitor and it seems exotic to them. If I were working there, I’d have to fit in, and I’m not sure how well I’d do it, or if I could do it without feeling stifled and resentful.

By the way, it sounds like you know the UK pretty well, but it’s worth asking – are you sure that the reaction to your outspokenness was gender-related? My read (half-American, half-British, lived in both places) is generally that Americans are just much more straightforward than Brits generally (Americans will complain in restaurants, Brits won’t, and British language is full of ‘would you mind’ and ‘if it’s alright’ and ‘so sorry to bother you, but’…in both men’s and women’s speech). And understatement is the name of the game too- I know Brits who have had trouble with that, because letters of reference over here are written much less glowingly than in the US, so what is actually an excellent reference might sound just so-so to American ears. (Of course there is still plenty of straight-up sexism over here too, I don’t mean to deny that!)

(In case you didn’t notice, I find pragmatics fascinating. I could go on, but I’ll save it for another time).

Hell, even when Britain had an openly religious Prime Minister, he wasn’t nearly as obnoxious or intrusive with his Jesus-love as his crony in the White House.

Awesome. Thatreally answers my question, thanks. I guess I’d conclude the upside to “feminism” being hi-jacked by women attempting to make money–if there is one–is that it’s given it a (very little) cache/acceptability? Even if that acceptability is only of some trite empowerfulment form of feminism? I still think the trite form is better than nothing, and it can be used as a gateway drug to the harder stuff!

If we’re citing anecdata, I have read many things by US women and thought ‘You put up with WHAT?! You’re expected to WHAT?!’ That made me laugh, because it’s exactly the response I’ve had to some of what I’ve seen going on when I’m immersed in the UK corporate culture. I guess we’re both responding to the same shit, just in slightly different formats. For me, the laddishness I see in my industry’s UK companies would simply not fly in the US ones: men joking about a female colleague’s breasts/sex life, getting falling down drunk with colleagues etc. And yet at the same time, I’ve observed that my own brand of outspokenness, which has served me very well in New York, would be a real problem if I worked in the UK wing of the industry, where women are still encouraged to play nice and default to being deferential.

@Endora: The Katie Price/Jade Goody as a role model trope REALLY irritates the shit out of me. But I agree that it’s probably the same as Kim Kardashian or Paris Hilton and other sexxxy dumbasses with a homemade porn flick who get rewarded by the US media.

Just a quick note on whether the UK is more chauvinist or not – I really don’t know. But I will say that the legal rights of women are generally better in the UK (6 months to 1 year maternity leave and abortions available up to week 22 are the first ones that come to mind).

Sorry harpies, long day.