Over the weekend, Hortense from Jezebel posted a story about Jill Scott’s recent commentary in Essense magazine. Scott, who is black, wrote about her feelings regarding interracial relationships. She describes her spirit “wincing” when she finds out a black man is dating, or married to, a white woman (rather than a black woman). “My position is that for women of color, this very common ‘wince’ has solely to do with the African story in America,” she writes.
Some of the responses to Scott’s piece at Jezebel made me “wince.” I’m not going to say whether I “agree” or “disagree” with Scott, because her experience is not one I’ll ever have. And my own opinion, as an outsider, is not relevant. However, I need to dispel some of the myths and falsehoods I read in the comments.
“Slavery is over.” The Energizer bunny of privileged cluelessness. I infer this bit of truthiness was in reaction to the part where Jill explained:
When our people were enslaved, “Massa” placed his Caucasian woman on a pedestal. She was spoiled, revered and angelic, while the Black slave woman was overworked, beaten, raped and farmed out like cattle to be mated. She was nothing and neither was our Black man. As slavery died for the greater good of America, and the movement for equality sputtered to life, the White woman was on the cover of every American magazine. She was the dazzling jewel on every movie screen, the glory of every commercial and television show. She was unequivocally the standard of beauty for this country, firmly unattainable to anyone not of her race. We daughters of the dust were seen as ugly, nappy mammies, good for day work and unwanted children, while our men were thought to be thieving, sex-hungry animals with limited brain capacity.
We reflect on this awful past and recall that if a Black man even looked at a White woman, he would have been lynched, beaten, jailed or shot to death. In the midst of this, Black women and Black men struggled together, mourned together, starved together, braved the hoses and vicious police dogs and died untimely on southern back roads together. These harsh truths lead to what we really feel when we see a seemingly together brother with a Caucasian woman and their children. That feeling is betrayed.
Slavery may be over, but the scars of slavery remain. White women are still exalted as the most desirable sex and relationship partners. I think it would hurt to feel like you’ve stood by the men in your community only to be passed over by those men when they look for love.
It’s easy for white women to say, “Love is colorblind!” (platitude #2) when they are not used to being rejected on the basis of their race. People’s dating success is heavily influenced by their race. Late last year, online dating site OKCupid processed the messaging habits of its users and published some trends they noticed. As they put it on the OKCupid blog, “despite what you might’ve heard from the Obama campaign and organic cereal commercials, racism is alive and well.”
And a lot of folks who disapproved of Scott’s piece realize that… except the “racism” they see is Scott’s. “Scott is no better than the KKK!” Okaaaay, if you completely ignore context and power differentials.
Which brings me to the question, “Would it be the same if [the details were totally different]?” No, it’s not the same when a white guy gets upset about a white women pairing up with a man of color. Those with racial and sexual privilege are not coming from the same place as those without it. Again: context and power differentials are important!
Scott is not speaking for all black women but I think plenty of black women can relate to what she’s said. These responses are attempts to invalidate Scott’s experiences – experiences white women cannot know. They demonstrate a superficial reading of her piece and don’t even try to understand where she is coming from. I recommend reading Tami’s post on the subject.
As Glenn Beck would say, you know who else dated people? …Hitler.
I’m always hella confused how white people opining on this topic don’t feel like the biggest busybodies in the universe. Such is the internets, I guess.
but but but…if we acknowledge that context & power differentials are important, that means we have to actually admit that THEY EXIST!
“Slavery is over!” is about as smart a response as “women are totally equal now!” You pretty much hang a giant IGNORAMUS sign on yourself with either.
As a white (Jewish) person, I did not understand the defensive reactions AT ALL. I’m as wasp-y looking as they come for a Jewish person, and I still feel a twinge when yet another one of my male Jewish friends dates a tall, slim leggy blonde. And I’m in a relationship with a Jewish man and my father married a slim blonde non-Jewish woman (hi mom!)
Of course I know this is not comparable to the subject, just illustrating that her reaction isn’t exactly mind-blowing or unique. As others have mentioned, Essence talks about the subject nearly monthly. I don’t get where all the shocked and horrified reactions come from. Have they missed out on all the talk on the subject around Tiger Woods, for instance?
I didn’t feel the need to comment on the Jezebel article because as a white person, I’m on the sidelines of this issue. Reading some of the wonderful and thoughtful replies to the more offensive posters and educating myself while staying silent and learning about the issues others face is far more valuable to the discussion than me jumping into a fraught thread and speaking my probably clueless two cents. So I’m doing that here instead and hoping I’m not sticking my foot too far into my mouth.
This was so infuriating (the ‘discussion’, not Scott’s comments) that I couldn’t comment about it on Jez. Here’s the thing: my ex-fiance is black. Our son was biracial. With my ex-fiance, his stepmother is from Korea and his half-sister is biracial. And it was my family (or at least one or two individuals) who had ‘issues’ with it.
And my most long-term relationship with a woman was with a black woman. Now, I went to a symposium with my ex-girlfriend, at Smith College, that was for the Queer Women of Color group. And the discussion about interracial dating, particularly with white women, was spirited to say the least.
There’s no way I can pretend to know what the experience of black women is like, whether they’re straight or LGBTQ. So when some of the women at the symposium spoke up against interracial dating, I could not take offense. My girlfriend wasn’t comfortable with me meeting her parents, who knew she was gay, because she worried how they’d react to my being white. So I didn’t, and instead I just talked with her about it in the hopes she’d soon enough be comfortable with that. (In the end, I never met the family when they visited campus.) To say that she was ‘wrong’ to feel the way she did and make the request wasn’t something I could do, and so Scott’s comments are not ‘wrong’ to me either. I can’t move in the same context as Jill Scott, or my ex-girlfriend. And the history does lay the ground for the present. To say, “oh, slavery is over, so don’t worry about it” just boggles the mind.
I didn’t see the Jezebel story until there were a ton of comments, and the first (newest) one I saw was a response to everyone calling Scott a racist. Racist? Really? That was enough to make me click out of there.
But but but…white people aren’t racist! ‘Specially not the tea partiers! No, it’s Obama who’s the biggest racist EVAH. And calling it racist proves that *you’re* the real racist, ‘cuz I totally don’t see race, and like affirmative action is socialist, so there.
[/teapartynonsense]
As SarahMC said – context and power differentials, people! It doesn’t work that way.
What about the substance of what Ms. Scott is saying?
Is she right that accomplished black men often seek out white women over women of color to show that they’ve achieved a certain level of success? Anecdotally, at least, it’s hard to disagree with her.
As a black female, I chose not to join the discussion on Jezebel. There was way to much privilege being shown throughout the thread. I don’t think white women – no matter whom they choose to date – can begin to understand the constant berating that black women receive.
It’s easy for one to say ‘love is colorblind’ when, for the most part, everyone (I’m talking theoretically, here) wants to date you. I was on Match.com for 6 months without a single date. Which is odd since I’m considered conventionally attractive though I am brown. It wasn’t until the OkCupid study came out that I really got an idea of how serious this was.
Though I am currently dating a white man (which is common for me due to my social/professional life) I still sometimes wince when I see a black man with a white woman. Not because I have any issues with inter-racial dating or anything, but because she is the exact opposite of me. Proving all of the crap that black women are being told is possiblyy true.
Sunday my son played a work in an orchestra by William Grant Still, a black composer. The conductor introduced the work in a way that made me uncomfortable. He mentioned three things:
that he had known him personally
that critics colluded ahead of time to give Still’s opera negative reviews because he was black
and that Still married a white woman and was criticized for it.
I don’t know if the conductor was right to bring up his wife’s race or not. Am I wrong to be weirded out by this?
@rodiguez In a modern context that would be weird, but he married her in 1939. That certainly would have informed his experiences and his work.
If it were a living composer who married later it would seem an odd thing to note though.
I didn’t see the post until there were like eleventy billion comments already. I am always amazed at how DEFENSIVE people can be.
Reading Jill Scotts statement all I took away was a woman being honest about a very raw emotion that she feels. She wasn’t saying there should be no interracial dating EVER, she wasn’t saying that she was the official arbiter on how all women of color feel about interracial dating. It was one woman’s respectfully stated opinion.
I think it’s hard to disagree with her about that too, charlemagneinsweats. Another common reaction is, “But loved one/partner is black and loved one/self is white and they/we really love each other!” And? Again, missing the point.
@rodriguez: I wonder if that would be akin to Jack Johnson’s celebrity/status, especially in light of miscegenation laws that could have impinged on the conductor’s career. I’m thinking of Johnson because his relationships with white women made him an even greater pariah in early 20th century America, and in that case I do believe it was integral to analysis of his life and fame.
@sarah & peaches I am glad to hear these interpretations. I didn’t doubt the conductor was well intentioned and looking to educate his students, who are all in HS.
That was the most infuriating post in recent Jezebel history. People LOVE talking about themselves on that site, such that the default setting is to interpret every single subject from a first-person perspective. Sometime that works, like when Sadie posts a story about herself to elicit similar kinds of narratives, but sometimes (as in the case of the Jill Scott post) it’s more useful to step back and ask, “can I make a contribution here that is NOT about me? And, if I MUST talk about myself, will it make for a productive conversation? Oh, and maybe just once can I put myself in someone else’s shoes?”
During that whole discussion, I kept thinking, “Jill Scott is not talking about you, white commenter with the black boyfriend. Or you, other white commenter with another black boyfriend! And DEFINITELY not you, white commenter with the red herring! She’s talking about herself, and the people she knows. Can we talk about them?” Jesus.
Anyway, thanks for bringing it up here. Sometimes, sad as it is, it is going to take white women to get other white women to listen. Just as feminists need men to step up to other dudes and say, “here’s how we are privileged,” sometimes white women will only hear that when it’s voiced by another white woman.
I’m sure that the exasperation felt is made extra-exasperatey by the fact that we put so many black men in prison in this country.
So, majority culture, which is arguably white, locks a large proportion of black men in prison and then many of the individual black men who escape that fate form relationships with women who are a part of the majority culture. Yup, I don’t have any solution, but I can see how that would be annoying.
It is surprising how oblivious people can be to the degree of bigotry, prejudice, and racist hatred that exists out there, especially with regard to interracial relationships. We might notice it from time to time, but the degree of vitriol, as I once found out, can be astounding when one is out someplace with someone of a different race and they are the only non-white person in that place. I also find it fascinating how people ignore the form of slavery achieved through the use of the prison industrial complex. Additionally, most of the States having laws against felons voting enacted them with the unconcealed intent of reducing the black vote. These laws are still abused to disenfranchise people whose vote is feared or who have anti-establishment views. It can be argued that slavery has not yet ended. With respect to interracial dating, what used to be known as the crime of Sedition may not be on the books anymore, but there are plenty of places where it is regarded that way. Do you remember the way it was put forth as being so horrible that a rumor had been started about John McCain fathering a black child. Why do you think people thought that rumor was so horrible if they had no prejudice? The sentiments expressed in the articles referenced may be evidence of a frequently occurring emotion resulting from the environment each of us was raised in, but we should try to overcome that with reasoning.
Glad to hear Snarf3D chime in with her story of a twinge – it’s in no way unique to black women.
I’m one of the few people I know, of any race, who doesn’t get “the twinge,” or its cousin, “the recoil” (as in, recoiling from the idea of having a relationship with a person of some race, despite a generally progressive outlook)
[Sometimes I want to go up to every interracial couple I see (including the gay ones) and shout, "Breed, multiply, fill the earth with children that will have a difficult time dating within their races and be forced to widen their horizons!" but that's another story, with a different set of neuroses]
That said, I don’t fault anyone for getting “the twinge” or “the recoil.” I wouldn’t exactly say it’s “natural” (what is?) but I would say that personal choice is not political mandate, and the norms of those two things are (and often should be) very different.
What I do hate is that Jill Scott had to frame this in “legacy of slavery” bs; that’s just a pathetic politicized cover to try to obscure the fact that, in the immortal words of avenue q, “everyone’s a little bit racist”
So, everyone is to go ahead and embrace your racism – the sooner we come to know and love it, the sooner we’ll be rid of it.
I can’t even imagine being in those shoes. I am not white but close enough to pale to be confused. It’s a shame that while reflecting about the topic and the comments offered I can’t recall a young same race couple in my mind that I would know. So I have to conclude with the original post: racism and racism in gender is alive and well.
@Applebrown:
I’m relieved to hear you’re not going around telling anyone to ‘breed”. That might not be taken kindly, especially by people of color.
As for your reference to the legacy of slavery being bs, I beg to differ. When a quarter of the country still thinks the Civil War was a noble effort on the part of the South, we have some work to do.
And even if it could somehow be shown that blacks and whites had achieved total social and economic parity in the US, there are people alive in this country today who lived through the worst excesses of the Jim Crow era. Who has the right to tell them that their view of society is wrong? Obviously other majority-white countries experience racism without having experienced slavery, but for us, the two are inextricably mixed together. Slavery When DWB and WWB are unwritten crimes in every town in this country, we are all still living with the legacy of slavery.
As a kid who has at one time had to witness her Arab/Mexican mother and white father getting yelled at for breeding me and my sisters, the whole subject interracial couples and the backlash against them has made me feel pretty empty to be honest.
That said, I can still see where Jill Scott is coming from.
I’ve crushed on many men before and many of them had gone on to date conventionally pretty girls—-so many times, it has made me look at myself and decide my hair’s too black and bushy, my brows and nose are too big, that I was too broad-shouldered, too fat, too tall, that it wasn’t any wonder that I don’t get that many dates.
I’ve seen other girls of various races and diverse looks (i.e. not not thin, big noses, etc.) do this as well. Looking at any couple at all, and thinking, “Of course I can’t have that. Look at me.”
That said, I would’nt want to say I can emphasize completely with Jill Scott. I can’t. I’m not black, and honestly, I don’t know about Arabic women (oh, no, we’re either terrorists or victims of domestic abuse)but Latinas are fetishized in America by a lot; though it’s arguable that that isn’t as bad.
I work at a coffee shop. People go there for dates, spend time with their spouses… basically what I’m saying is that I see a lot of couples, interacial or not. And take note that I live in a conservative area. When it comes to white and anyone-who-is-not-white relationships there is a definite gender bias when it comes to race. The white half of the relationship is usually the man. In school I have white male classmates who are married to WOC. A female friend who looks latina (white eastern european) has guys tripping all over her. My white brother has an interracial child. I read all the time that WOC are invisible relationship speaking but my personal experiences say otherwise. I know that there are plenty of racist jerks out there and the problem Jill Scott talks about is definitely real. But I can’t help thinking maybe she is being over sensitive and blowing things out of proportion. I see so many WOC here who are desired and seen as beautiful.
To compare this to something I can relate to (Because everything in the universe should relate directly back to me) I have things in my life that I am HYPERsensitive about. Most of these things are problems solidly rooted in reality but then my own insecurities blow the problem out of proportion. I think the same thing is occuring with this racial twinge. There is a real problem but it is not as all emcompassing as it is made out to be. (There still is a problem, I’m not denying that. I’ve heard some people say some ugly racist things.) I know people here will say I am “blinded by my white priveledge” and such for saying this but I can’t ignore everything I see in my life because people on the internet tell me to.
Why are my experiences with this so damned different from what everyone else here is saying? I don’t live in a liberal utopia.
kiki, were the women of color you saw white men with mostly Latina, mostly black, or mostly Asian?
@kiki:
It’s also possible that your coffee shop is a place white guys like to go on dates, while black guys like to take their dates somewhere else. It would be interesting to do a study and see how it lines up to the demographics of your area.
Kiki: “I know people here will say I am “blinded by my white priveledge” and such for saying this but I can’t ignore everything I see in my life because people on the internet tell me to.” I can’t agree more and I feel like you and I are coming from the same perspective. I like reading these articles/posts/comments because it makes me more aware of my surroundings, but sometimes it seems to be made a bigger deal than maybe it really is. And I don’t mean to trivialize anyone’s experiences by saying that. While reading through all of it, all I wondered was, what are you going to do about it – how will we sole these issues?
@kiki and blindirishpirate: No one is asking you to believe this because some people on the internet said it was true. We’re asking you to believe this because it’s been demonstrated in more than just a few sociological studies (you can read the link on the OKCupid analysis for similar findings), and because the “legacy of slavery BS” is historical reality, not BS.
Assuming that personal sightings of white men with women of color contradicts this is shortsighted, and a bit like claiming that because it snowed in your state, global warming can’t possibly exist.
@RocktheDebit
The women I see are all colors under the sun with latina being the most common. There is a large latin population in my state (Utah) so that would be expected.
@bellacooker
That is a really interesting idea. The few black men that bring their dates/wives to the cafe are generally older. I can’t recall ever seeing a young black man bringing a white woman. Other MOC usually have WOC as their dates.
@blindirishpirate
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that I think it is important for WOC (and anyone really) to know that the things that bother them while real are often not as all encompassing as they have been made out to be. With my personal issues I have found this to be a great comfort.
@philosophyerin
No one is saying this is BS. Just that it has been blown out of proportion. My experiences show that WOC are not undatable as has been claimed repeatedly.
And your global warming remark. Oh the pain! (It is snowing right now in Utah. Ha ha. Seriously it really is.) It is called Climate Change! You know temp going up in some places, going down in others. An increase in extreme weather events. People calling Climate Change global warming is a huge pet peeve of mine. Misnaming it global warming has made it that much easier for ignorant/stubborn people to deny its existence. Climate Change!
I agree, we have to consider the legacy of slavery in this country. No one wants to talk about that or its long lasting affects.
Younger whites may know very little about slavery in America. I’ll spare you the grusome details here but if you get the chance watch an old movie called ‘Mandingo’, watch it, if you can. I couldn’t watch it. But I couldn’t watch ROOTS either. The brutual depictions of slavery were too much for me. It was all too close to home. Those were my people being boiled in oil for trying to learn how to read. Those were my mothers, and sisters and daughters who were being raped, and beaten and sold, and their children sold like cattle at market. For me it was not that long ago. I have not forgotten. I still bear the effects of that system in my mind, and in my spirit. It follows me wherever I go like a dark shadow. Whites say ‘just forget about it’, I wish I could.
After slavery Black people were promised 40 acres and a mule. We could have used some therapy instead. Unfortunately we got neither. We could still use the therapy. The real trauma of slavery and it effects has never been addressed or studied in this country. Black people have been brutalized, terrorized, and traumatized in this country, and told we was stupid, ugly and no good and lazy. And now, like in any other dysfunctional family, no one wants to talk about it. ‘It’, the topic of slavery, might be the 800 pound gorilla in the room, but it is not ‘bs’.
People, we can’t heal what we refuse to see. We need more open talks about slavery. Black people are affected everyday by the legacy of slavery. This race issue will never go away in America until we talk about it.
Then the question becomes how can we make all the madness go away and how do we finally find peace?
Ultimately by understanding that anything that separates us is a lie. We are not Black or White or American or Mexican or Gay or Lesbian or Middle eastern or Democrat or Christian or Buddhist. We are non of those labels that divide us. We are all brothers and sisters of One God/Source, sharing this planet together.
Ultimately Love is the only answer. We just keep forgetting.
I love the title of this post, because I think it exactly speaks to Scott’s point. It doesn’t matter whether the “wince” is racist/justified; what matters is that it is part of (some/many) black women’s experience. I’m one of those white women who’s with a black man. I’ve been winced at. My mother-in-law clearly prefers my black sister-in-law. At first I took it personally and was defensive. But once I came to understand the why of the wince – which is extremely complicated – I just couldn’t be upset about it anymore. To take it personally is to dismiss someone else’s perspective and pain as less important than my own.
@kiki: The title of this post is “stop dismissing black women’s pain.” And your response is: “black women, you’re blowing this out of proportion.” Think about it.
@ Spark – I don’t think that is what Kiki or I ever meant. For me, I’m recognizing that there is more to this than I had originally perceived, and I’m learning from it. But my response to this issue, just like every issue, is that you can’t just complain or make statements, you need to think of a solution.
And I completely, 100% agree with AJ’s sentiments.
@kiki: Apologies, the “BS” comment was supposed to be directed at Applebrownbettywhite, who actually said that it was BS.
I know that “climate change” is now the preferred term. And I certainly did not claim that women of color are undateable. The point of my analogy was to illustrate that your isolated experience of seeing Latina women date white guys in no way illustrates that Jill Scott’s claims that Black women are systematically de-valued (particularly, in this case, as potential romantic partners) in American culture are wrong or “blow the problem out of proportion.” Because this phenomenon is both well-documented sociologically AND attested to by actual black women, it is unfair and yes, shortsighted, to suggest that your experience of seeing white guys with women of color somehow shows that Scott is being overly sensitive.
@Blindirishpirate: I’m confused as to why you think anyone who complains about mistreatment is responsible for thinking of a solution. Why is it the job of those speaking out against their own oppression to ALSO give us all a plan on how to fix it?
I’m guessing by saying she winces she means it’s like an involuntary action. It’s not like she’s running up to people and slapping them in the face, or shouting them down in the street – but merely writing about, what I’m sure is, a fairly common feeling.
Obviously in an ideal world, which I hope we will one day reach, we will all just love each other for who we are.. but the facts are we, as a species, are still ‘dealing’ with issues and circumstances occuring that are within living memory of some people, or their parents or grandparents.
So yeah, some people are still going to be wincing – perhaps sometimes when they don’t really want to be but can’t help it.
@joytulip: I think you put it beautifully here. Way to go recognizing the need for seeing things from someone else’s perspective! Especially in a sea full of people determined to see it only from their own.
Also, I’m going to second philosophyerin’s comment that someone who recognizes inustice cannot be solely responsible for coming up with a solution. Solutions take work, and often take privilege. Part of being oppressed or lacking privilege is that you CAN’T fix the problem yourself without cooperation from others. That’s why Jill Scott’s expression of her perspective is so important. Because it can help many of us see injustice where we might not have recognized it before. To shut down her arguments just because we don’t SEE what she’s talking about is just another example of doing exactly what Sarah MC warns us against in the title of her post: denying a black woman’s pain.
Not to be all “what about the menz”, but I do feel that there is a lack of the voices of black men in this conversation. After all, they’re the ones that are making the pertinent choices here. It seems to me that Scott’s piece was directed primarily at black women and talking about a phenomenon that she interprets to be primarily at issue within black communities and then a lot of the reaction on Jez was from white women saying, “I feel that my perspective has been left out of this conversation”. Well…yes. It has been. Sometimes that happens and it’s not always a terrible thing. But, I do think it would be productive to involve black men in the conversation (obviously not something Jez is very well-positioned to do, unfortunately).
Regardless, I agree with everything you’ve written, Sarah, and I think it’s important to state.
@ Queen_George
Very well said. And no ones pain should ever be ignored. Even when we can’t fathom it. What we should be focusing on, especially the privilaged, is a solution. We are all human and while some of us can’t relate we are all sister and brothers and sisters and brothers should talk and help one another.
I was afraid that my statement was going to be interpreted that way. I’m sorry for it happening that way – my meaning was what can WE, as a society, do?