One of the best live discussions on-line is Carolyn Hax’s noontime advice session at the Washington Post. Carolyn herself is pretty awesome, and every now and then the noon discussion resembles good group therapy. Or a highly entertaining free-for-all. Or sometimes, people Get Told in truly delightful fashion. For example:
How come if a woman has dated both “nice” guys and abusive guys, you’ll find out that in just about every case, her longest relationships have been with the abusive guys? Why do so many women require some form of drama to remain entertained in a relationship, and do you find this to be childish behavior?
Carolyn replied:
Not as childish as attributing this to women as opposed to people in general, and lumping all women as opposed to addressing some of them who have a similar set of circumstances, and blaming the victims instead of the abusers. But other than that, I’m right there with you.
If you are a guy, and if you are angry that women aren’t receptive to you when you see yourself as a “nice” guy, and you believe these women are instead receptive to abusive guys, then maybe it would be productive to consider that you’re harboring attitudes about women (and men, for that matter) that aren’t really “nice” at all.
Brava, Carolyn. The whole “women don’t like nice guys” generalization is one that I’m heartily sick of. But then a reader did Carolyn one better, coming into the thread with perhaps the Greatest Comment of All Time. Behold:
I believe Mr. DC suffers from what I like to term: Nice Guy Syndrome (TM). Since he’s busy making generalizations about women as a monolithic unit I feel comfortable making generalizations about people like him who suffer from Nice Guy Syndrome (TM). Guys who label themselves as “Nice Guys” and then complain about women are just as manipulative as any abuser. Guys who label themselves as “Nice Guys” aren’t actually nice at all. They are especially un-nice to women whom they somehow think owe the Nice Guy something (attention, friendship, sex) for simply being “nice.”
Sorry Mr. DC, no woman owes you anything for being a Nice Guy. If you were an actual nice guy, as opposed to a Nice Guy, you would not be making your generalizations about women, you would not be bitter, you would have more self-confidence and, perhaps most of all, you would see women as fellow human beings instead of some subspecies. Women are in fact human beings and respond quite well to being treated as such.
Hell. Yeah. This lady–and I’m 99% sure she’s a lady, even though this is the internet–espouses one of our governing Harpy principles: you don’t get a cookie for not being an asshole. Don’t abuse women? You’re not supposed to abuse women, asshole. Men who go fishing for praise—or dates—simply because they’re not OJ Simpson have a shamefully low opinion of women and an irrationally high opinion of themselves.
Here’s the honest truth about nice guys vs. Nice Guys:
Genuinely nice guys have nothing to worry about. Genuinely nice guys already have plenty of female friends, both platonic and romantic, because treating women (or men) kindly and respectfully pretty much guarantees companionship. But genuinely nice guys are not the ones complaining. The ones being all concerned about why women make these choices—and how they can change their silly womanish ways—are the Nice Guys. Nice Guys can’t understand why their anger, criticism and sense of entitlement fail to attract women, or only attract women they deem “beneath them.” They also don’t see that their need to dictate women’s behavior so that we can better attract them is belittling, douche-y, and classic abuser mode.
Frankly, the fact that this guy is so peevish about “childish” women and their “drama” that he’s writing to an advice columnist in a live thread makes me hopeful—his obvious frustration means the women around him must all have properly high standards and a fully-functioning bullshit detector.
Put another way: kindness begets kindness, compassion begets compassion, love begets love. If you are displaying these qualities, you will get these qualities in return.
what a perfect way to start a morning.
Girls love guys who are nice. Nice Guys consumed by self-pity and resentment are creepy. Not that I’ve had many dealings with the latter. A good Bitch Face scares them away stat.
Being “nice” isn’t supposed to be a tactic. And how is the word even defined? If by “nice” you mean a wuss who is easily bossed around then, yes, that guy probably won’t do well with the opposite sex–think Milhouse and his relationship with Lisa on the Simpsons.
@Charlemagne: I would define “nice” just the way I did in the post: “treating women (or men) kindly and respectfully.”
My abuser father recently posted something on his Facebook account against domestic violence. The gist of it was that all these women who are getting abused would be so much better off being with him because he would make them happy! Nevermind the fact that he has engaged in domestic violence in every relationship he’s been in that I know of… He’s a Nice Guy, everybody!
In other words, I totally agree.
While I understand and support the sentiment, this isn’t quite true. All other things being equal, the genuinely nice guy is likely to have more friends (and therefore the idea that acting abusively will help you socially is just silly), but it’s not a guarantee for everyone. If you’re shy, or ugly, or socially awkward, you’re still going to have a tougher time of it, no matter how genuinely nice you are.
Actually, strike that. I don’t even “agree” because that implies that someone could reasonably argue otherwise. I KNOW.
As always, I love me some Carolyn, and totally <3 her response. What's so funny is that the Nice Guy ™ clearly wrote his "question" (more like rant) in a totally leading way. And she smacked that shit down. <3
And how is the word even defined?
I’m really interested in the answer to this question. It seems to get defined pretty differently around – entitlement and/or bitterness get thrown about quite a bit; the latter certainly often applies, the former’s more complicated. One of (what seems to me, anyhow) the defining features of “Nice Guys” is that they steadfastly refuse to express interest in women and/or to ask women on dates/whatnot. That’s hard for me to reconcile with entitlement.
(I’ll caveat that I’m certainly guilty of Nice Guy-ism to various degrees, and thus pretty biased. Which stems from pedestaling, which I can be faulted for too, if we like. But I find it hard to reconcile my core attitude that leads to Nice Guy-ism, which is something like “Obviously it’d be an unwelcome, unwanted and offensive intrusion to confront (whoever) with my attraction to her, so I should just suppress any expression of it so she doesn’t have to deal with it, which would be the nice thing to do” with “entitled”. When I feel entitled to something, I ask for it, or demand it, or take it. I’m still confused on this point.)
[...] Nice Guys ™ Finish Last–For Good Reason [...]
I heard a really interesting thing about the Nice Guy (TM) issue on another discussion, which is that men and women often define asshole behavior differently. If Man A is more socially dominant than Man B — he’s more charismatic, tells better jokes, is more influential in terms of social choices (what movie do we see?) and so on — Man B might see him as an asshole just for that (this ties into Deborah Tannen’s idea about men being more hierarchically-oriented than women).
Furthermore! The men who make these sorts of complaints seem to have this bizarre misconception that when women date a guy, we’re always in it looking for our One True Loves. Of course, no woman has ever looked at a guy, said, “He looks fun and exciting but I couldn’t live with him long-term — I’ll date him for a couple of months, it’ll be fun”. Ever.
Oh, and @Brian –
“But I find it hard to reconcile my core attitude that leads to Nice Guy-ism, which is something like “Obviously it’d be an unwelcome, unwanted and offensive intrusion to confront (whoever) with my attraction to her, so I should just suppress any expression of it so she doesn’t have to deal with it, which would be the nice thing to do” with “entitled”.”
In my opinion, the thing that would take your behavior into the Nice Guy (TM) realm is if you then got upset at women for a) not figuring out your feelings by themselves and throwing themselves at you or b) rejecting you after you finally worked up the courage to confess your feelings to them. Both of those would demonstrate the entitlement. Does that make sense? If you just develop feelings for women, never tell them, but also never bear them ill will for the fact that they have not read your mind and initiated a relationship, then I’m not sure you’re a Nice Guy (TM) as opposed to just being…sort of…cowardly. (Sorry! But I’d say that about a woman who did the same.)
@Brian: See my response to Charlemagne above, where I define “nice” (which is also in the post).
When I feel entitled to something, I ask for it, or demand it, or take it. Yes, that’s one expression of entitlement. Another way of acting entitled is expecting something to come to you with no effort on your part—just because you deserve it.
For example:
The ladies know I’m a Nice Guy! Why aren’t they lining up to date me?
Well, do you talk to them? Listen to their responses? Engage with them in a thoughtful way (as compared to just expecting them to listen to you)? Show real interest in them that goes beyond the sexual? Do you want to get to know them for reasons other than just sex?
@JFPBookworm: If you’re shy, or ugly, or socially awkward, you’re still going to have a tougher time of it, no matter how genuinely nice you are.
Absolutely true. But being genuinely nice is still the thing that’s going to attract good people to you.
Echoing BeckySharper, I’ve dated plenty of guys who were shy or ugly or socially awkward. It doesn’t hurt that I am kind of weird myself. But these were guys who were not only nice, they treated me like a unique human being. They, in fact, realized that I was not exactly “normal” myself.
Which, now that I think about it, also made ME more likely to be passed over by a certain kind of guy in the dating world. But rather than getting angry at all men because some of them wouldn’t date me, I dated the ones who were actually interested in me (and that I was interested in, of course). And now here I am, very happily married to one of those socially awkward guys, too.
…Does it drive anyone else crazy that discussions about Nice Guys always end up being an explanation to guys of what a Nice Guy really is? Is it really that hard to accept that women know one when we see one and treat him accordingly, but that doesn’t mean that all nice guys are automatically Nice Guys and the line is really not as fuzzy as it may seem to a guy?
@waxghost – YES. It is frustrating. Especially since I’ve been dealing with my brother who’s convinced that having concepts like the Nice Guy (TM) hurts him and people like him because he swears he’s not one in any way, shape, or form, but women (weak-minded women who allow feminism to do their thinking for them, so he says) hastily apply such a stereotype to him, and then refuse to date him. Aaaaaauuuggghhh!
@waxghost
(Since I’m the guiltiest party here) I’m not asking questions because I don’t believe or accept it, but because I don’t understand it well enough to apply it to myself (and fixing my own broken behaviour is really the main reason I read discussions like this.) Should merely accepting it as true be the end goal of the discussion? I want to understand it well enough to apply it to my own experience, and correct what’s broken – though that can be fairly dismissed as making the conversation about myself, I think?
@ Brian, it’s nice and all that you’re trying to figure it out, but it’s already been explained. Here, and on many other blogs. Hell, I just Googled “nice guys ™” and found a huge long list of blogs explaining the phenomenon.
In the meantime, we could be talking about the Nice Guys we know, how Nice Guys are actually abusive, how to deal with Nice Guys, or any number of other topics that deal with Nice Guys but don’t require us to describe them in minute detail for the edification of one person’s ego and the progression of one person’s enlightenment. But instead, we’re talking about you, Brian. *yawn* How boring and useless to the rest of us.
Hmm, that “tm” is supposed to be in parentheses.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by John J Genzano, Pursuit of Harpyness. Pursuit of Harpyness said: Nice Guys (TM) Finish Last–For Good Reason @ http://bit.ly/cfnARF [...]
@baraqiel: Frustrating. Concepts like the Nice Guy exist because Nice Guys themselves exist! It’s not like women/feminists walk around being like, “Hey that guy seems pretty nice… but is he a Nice Guy ™?!?!”
If he’s worried, he should tell other guys not to act like tools because they’re making guys in general look bad.
@baraqiel I heard a really interesting thing about the Nice Guy (TM) issue on another discussion, which is that men and women often define asshole behavior differently.
I’ve often wondered about this! I suspect that most of these “abusive” guys the Nice Guys speak of aren’t abusive at all. I was in one long-term relationship where I matured and the guy didn’t. His immaturity and insecurities led to some bad behavior on his part that I certainly complained about to my friends. It could have been defined as abusive, especially when you just heard my side, but it wasn’t.
And I suppose theoretically a woman could gravitate toward abusive guys, but I’ve never known someone in real life like this. I know someone who tends to date immature guys with a lot of problems because she wants to “fix” them, but that’s different, and still not very common. Again, though, it would be easy for someone outside her relationships to claim that she only wants to date abusive assholes.
@Spark – That’s what I’m saying! It’s not like this was invented from whole cloth in order to spread misery to poor, innocent men. This is a concept that arose from many women having similar experiences and then talking about them and finding the commonalities. Then again, my brother also thinks that having dealbreakers in dating that he considers arbitrary (e.g. “I will not date a guy who refuses to talk on the phone before we meet in person”) is morally wrong. *facepalm*
@Brian: If your goal is to understand what’s wrong with the Nice Guy (TM) mentality. I think it’s pretty well explained here—by Carolyn Hax, by her commenter, by me, and by other commenters in this thread.
Treating women thoughtfully, respectfully and as individuals—i.e. the way you would want to be treated yourself—is not some deep, ineffable mystery of the universe. It’s very simple. You either do it or you don’t.
@JFPBookworm: “If you’re shy, or ugly, or socially awkward, you’re still going to have a tougher time of it, no matter how genuinely nice you are.”
Yes, but this is true for both sexes; it isn’t just some special circumstance that hinders nice men.
I’ve known several genuinely nice guys – and they really rarely lack for friends. To illustrate I’d like to share a story.
We have an engineer (electrical and sonic) here at work who is in his early thirties and seriously socially awkward and cripplingly shy. (I love him to bits.) He posted (FB) recently about wanting to screw up enough courage to ask out his barista. He hadn’t dated in years.
That post got more comments – from both men and women – than anything I’ve seen in a long time. Only one gave him grief – a male, married coworker – and it was slight and teasing.
You know what? He got a date. Not the barista, a lovely young woman who’d been too shy to ask him if he was available managed to express that if he didn’t get a positive response he might want to ask her out. He’d had NO clue that she’d even consider dating him.
Sometimes we’re all just afraid of rejection or making fools of ourselves. And small “n” nice guys are kind and caring and think of women as people – with strengths and flaws and fears – not just holes. And preferences in dates/mates.
And a woman who doesn’t know you’re attracted can’t possibly be responsible for your feelings – a kind and worthy woman will reject your unwanted interest kindly. Any woman who takes the opportunity to be cruel in this situation isn’t worth your time.
Nice Guys ™ think of women as “something” to be won or conquered. And some of them think that they deserve our bodies or attention because THEY are Nice Guys (entitlement). A nice guy knows that nobody owes him anything, or is responsible for his feelings or fulfillment, physical or emotional. We’re all the captains of that personal ship.
Want sex and there’s not a willing woman around? Masturbate. And not onto or into a woman who’s really not into you or you’re not into. That’s a serious waste of fucking time. Intended.
And if she’s drunk, be aware that we’ll call you a rapist.
@Brian: It’s possible for our emotions and our actions to be out of step. It’s possible to feel a sense of entitlement to attention, dates, sex from women (not just any woman, but the most socially desirable women – usually young and very conventionally attractive), but to not act on that entitlement. Oftentimes where Nice Guys (TM) are concerned, the failure to act stems from a deep lack of self-confidence; on the one hand they feel entitled to certain women, but at the same time they don’t feel good enough to get them. To explain that dissonance, they blame the women themselves – they’re picky bitches, they’re stuck up and obsessed with superficial things, they’re childish and only like asshole abusive guys, etc. It’s a toxic combination of entitlement (I want to live in a world where just the fact that I am male entitles me to my choice of women) and low self-esteem. It breeds a lot of anger and bitterness against women for having the audacity to have standards of their own rather than submitting to the hierarchical structure that the Nice Guy (TM) desires (I am male, therefore you owe me your time, your attention, your body, etc.)
Even when Nice Guys (TM) do take actions to meet and ask out the women they desire, there are often a lot of red flags. That sense of entitlement creeps through, the anger and bitterness creep through. They are often unsuccessful in their endeavors because of this. And the rejections only fuel the fire.
Of course it’s true for both sexes. If anything, guys have it a little easier in this regard. I just think it’s does a disservice to people to pretend that all it takes to find friends and romantic partners is being kind and respectful (with the implication that if you can’t, it must mean that you’re not genuinely nice).
In fact, one of the things that feeds the Nice Guy(TM) mentality is the idea that looks *don’t* matter to women, because it feeds the notion that women don’t actually experience attraction, but rather “reward” or “punish” behavior; in his world, she can only be with the “jerk” because of his behavior, not despite it.
@clairedammit – Yep, definitely. And then when you add in the fact that there are idiots of both genders and emotionally unhealthy people of both genders…there are a lot of reasons why any given woman might be dating someone that *some other person* considers to be wrong for her. “Women only go for assholes” is a ridiculous overgeneralization and oversimplification of the situation.
@Tall-in-heels
Hmm, that’s an interesting point/idea/whatnot. Thanks. I’ll think about it anyone.
@Becky
Good explanations can’t always overpower “Brian et al. are dopes” or “Brian et al. have fucked up socialisations.”
@Brian: What? No one here said anything like that. I don’t think I understand what you mean by that.
@Becky
Oh, sorry that I was unclear. I meant that I didn’t mean to imply this (or various other writings, locatable through Google, as mentioned by waxghost) weren’t good explanations, merely that I’m bad at understanding. And – uhm – expressing myself, it seems.
The thing is, though, is now I’m starting to wonder if there is such a thing as a Nice Girl (TM). While the patriarchy would supposedly nullify that possibility, the fact is that women can be just as judgmental, jealous and possessive as men—fuck essentialism.
The reason I say this is, um…I’m pretty sure I used to be one. :/ Throughout middle and high school, if I had a crush on a guy and he was involved with someone else I would HATE that person with all my energy. I would work myself into a furious state thinking, “She’s dumb, she’s a slut and she’s not even good-looking! Why can’t he be with meeeee?” (Granted, I didn’t have very much confidence in my own looks back then—in fact, I thought so little of them that I assumed nobody could ever have a crush on me, and thought that immediate entitlement to someone you have a crush on should be The Way Of The World.) As much as I believe myself to have moved beyond that stage, I still do have a habit that I’d very much like to be rid of in passing judgment on others’ relationships, albeit in my own thoughts. At times I’ve zeroed in on both (straight) guys and girls’ judgment—if I see a girl with a fratty-looking guy I’ve thought, “Why are you with that douche when there are lovely shy guys like My Boyfriend out there?” and if I see a nerdy-looking guy with a traditionally attractive girl, I often can’t help but think, “That’s not fair! She’s not really interested in you, and there are lots of nerd girls out there who would give their front teeth to date you!” (As for gay couples, sometimes I take an overly rosy view of them when I see the rare same-sex couple holding hands on campus as a refreshing turn away from crushing heteronormativity, forgetting that of course gay couples can and do have all the same problems that straight ones do.) Admittedly, I had these sorts of thoughts more when The Boyfriend and I first got together and before issues that needed to be worked out arose, when I thought that our relationship was perfect and nobody else could measure up to us.
I’m not asking for a solution for this as this is something I’m gradually coming to accept I have a problem with and resolve, I guess I’m just owning up to my own bad behavior in this regard.
I think that Nice Guys deny women inner lives, they think that we are black boxes who walk around doing mysterious and random things completely unconnected to our surrounding and external stimulus. So they are like that “abusive” guy is putting in “bad” input, and getting a good response (sex, companionship, attention, etc.), and here I am trying to put in “good” input and I keep getting a bad response. Why?!?!!
The whole idea that women are people as good, bad, and varied as men just does not get through no matter how many times it is repeated.
@Cat: I hear you, but I think what you’re describing is more along the lines of garden-variety insecurity, meanness, judgey-ness, etc. Which is kind of asshole-y, but not exactly the same as Nice Guys (TM). (And sorry if it sounds like I’m calling you an asshole, I’m not. The behavior sounds asshole-y, and I have certainly had some similarly asshole-y moments myself.)
Here’s why Nice Girls (TM) will never rise to the same level as Nice Guys (TM):
We do not have the gender privilege men do. Our society does not teach women that they’re entitled to sex, love, attention, approval, praise from the opposite gender, as it does with men. We’re expected to work hard to get those things by making ourselves likeable, sexy, deferential, cute, non-threatening, submissive, fatter, thinner or whatever male-dominated society tells us they would like us to be.
We’re also told to devote positively ENORMOUS amounts of time, attention and brainpower to whether men find us sexy, likeable or want to date/shag/marry us. If we choose not to do so, we’re belittled and marginalized by society. And if we do choose to do so and we still don’t find a mate, we’re always told the fault is OURS.
So, no. Nice Girls will never be the same as Nice Guys…at least, not until women reach full political, social and sexual equality with men. (At which time, let’s revisit this conversation!)
@ Cat, I agree with what BeckySharper said above. I also think that women in general tend to externalize it less.
For instance, you said that you didn’t think you were pretty so you didn’t believe that anyone would want to date you, which was an evaluation (however wrong) of yourself and what you needed to bring to a relationship. Nice Guys, on the other hand, don’t seem to be able to consider that what is causing them to not have the relationships that they want with women might be at least partially their own flaw(s); they instead project any and all flaws onto women (and not even just one woman or a few, which might be more reasonable, but all of womankind).
To me, it’s pretty simple what makes an actual nice guy (not “Nice Guy”). It’s the same stuff that makes a nice human in general – the kind of person I want to hang around and be friends with. Now, just because I want to be friends with a person doesn’t necessarily mean I also want to be romantic partners with them, and it’s not a slight. There are scads of nice people in the world if you look closely, but not all of them are also going to light up the attraction receptors of every person of the opposite sex. I’m sure I have male friends who think I’m fun to pal around with but don’t want to date me, and that’s cool.
The problem I have noticed in “Nice Guys” is that they generally have a low opinion of women, view women as a monolithic unit, and feel that they should be qualified for a relationship with the woman of their choice based on a lot of factors that don’t actually make a lot of sense. For example, the guy who feels that because he has a high-paying job everyone should want to date him. Or the guy who feels that because he dresses well, has a nice car and meets minimal standards of human decency he should automatically be attractive to all women. That guy would likely see a woman who dates a guy who doesn’t have much money or who dresses badly as a personal affront, without taking into consideration that maybe the woman just likes the personality of that poor, badly dressed man. “Nice Guys” seem to have an over-reliance on external factors, and don’t seem to be able to look inside themselves and ask why the common factor in all their failed relationships is themselves – and if they have some emotional work to do in their own lives. It’s always someone else’s fault, usually that monolithic mass known as “women”.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/but-if-we-started-dating-it-would-ruin-our-friends,11473/
Hi, I’m a bit late to this discussion but I was wondering if any of you have read this article. It’s meant to be humor, but I think it basically describes a Nice Guy’s relationship from the girl’s point of view. I think many times it could be a relationship with a woman just like this that has soured the Nice Guy and started him down his path.
One other thing that bothers me is an idea I’ve seen echoed on several feminist websites when talking about the Nice Guy type, and I’ll quote it from the original post: “Genuinely nice guys have nothing to worry about. Genuinely nice guys already have plenty of female friends, both platonic and romantic”. So basically the main criterion for whether you’re a genuinely good guy or a creepy loser is whether you’ve already got a girlfriend. In other words, guys who are lonely, maybe for being shy, socially awkward or simply not attractive, will come online and read that it’s all their fault for being horrible human beings, and since they don’t have a relationship, they probably don’t deserve one! On the other hand, abusers who are also in a relationship will be assured that they are, in fact, “genuinely nice guys”.
I’m not defending genuinely dishonest guys, manipulators or abusers. I just think there’s so much hate and venom spewed toward this “Nice Guy” character, that many otherwise decent, well-intentioned guys end up getting the label just because they’ve been unlucky or inexperienced in the past.
@Johnny_b:
Genuinely nice guys have nothing to worry about. Genuinely nice guys already have plenty of female friends, both platonic and romantic”. So basically the main criterion for whether you’re a genuinely good guy or a creepy loser is whether you’ve already got a girlfriend. In other words, guys who are lonely, maybe for being shy, socially awkward or simply not attractive, will come online and read that it’s all their fault for being horrible human beings, and since they don’t have a relationship, they probably don’t deserve one! On the other hand, abusers who are also in a relationship will be assured that they are, in fact, “genuinely nice guys”.
I think you misunderstood. I did not say anything like that at all—you’re twisting my words to serve your own rant. I wasn’t talking about “criteria” at all, or whether or not a man deserves to have a relationship.
Look at where I said “plenty of female friends both platonic and romantic.” Platonic does not equal girlfriend. Platonic means plain old non-romantic friends. I’m not saying that that you can tell who’s a nice guy and who’s a creep is whether they have a girlfriend. What I said was that genuinely nice guys already have female friends because they treat women decently and kindly. In my experience, this is true even of ones who are shy, awkward or un-handsome.
As for the “hatred and venom” being spewed at Nice Guys, well, if you had to live in women’s shoes, you might feel the same way. Try empathy for a change—it’s also a hallmark of genuinely nice guys.