One of the best live discussions on-line is Carolyn Hax’s noontime advice session at the Washington Post. Carolyn herself is pretty awesome, and every now and then the noon discussion resembles good group therapy. Or a highly entertaining free-for-all. Or sometimes, people Get Told in truly delightful fashion. For example:
How come if a woman has dated both “nice” guys and abusive guys, you’ll find out that in just about every case, her longest relationships have been with the abusive guys? Why do so many women require some form of drama to remain entertained in a relationship, and do you find this to be childish behavior?
Carolyn replied:
Not as childish as attributing this to women as opposed to people in general, and lumping all women as opposed to addressing some of them who have a similar set of circumstances, and blaming the victims instead of the abusers. But other than that, I’m right there with you.
If you are a guy, and if you are angry that women aren’t receptive to you when you see yourself as a “nice” guy, and you believe these women are instead receptive to abusive guys, then maybe it would be productive to consider that you’re harboring attitudes about women (and men, for that matter) that aren’t really “nice” at all.
Brava, Carolyn. The whole “women don’t like nice guys” generalization is one that I’m heartily sick of. But then a reader did Carolyn one better, coming into the thread with perhaps the Greatest Comment of All Time. Behold:
I believe Mr. DC suffers from what I like to term: Nice Guy Syndrome (TM). Since he’s busy making generalizations about women as a monolithic unit I feel comfortable making generalizations about people like him who suffer from Nice Guy Syndrome (TM). Guys who label themselves as “Nice Guys” and then complain about women are just as manipulative as any abuser. Guys who label themselves as “Nice Guys” aren’t actually nice at all. They are especially un-nice to women whom they somehow think owe the Nice Guy something (attention, friendship, sex) for simply being “nice.”
Sorry Mr. DC, no woman owes you anything for being a Nice Guy. If you were an actual nice guy, as opposed to a Nice Guy, you would not be making your generalizations about women, you would not be bitter, you would have more self-confidence and, perhaps most of all, you would see women as fellow human beings instead of some subspecies. Women are in fact human beings and respond quite well to being treated as such.
Hell. Yeah. This lady–and I’m 99% sure she’s a lady, even though this is the internet–espouses one of our governing Harpy principles: you don’t get a cookie for not being an asshole. Don’t abuse women? You’re not supposed to abuse women, asshole. Men who go fishing for praise—or dates—simply because they’re not OJ Simpson have a shamefully low opinion of women and an irrationally high opinion of themselves.
Here’s the honest truth about nice guys vs. Nice Guys:
Genuinely nice guys have nothing to worry about. Genuinely nice guys already have plenty of female friends, both platonic and romantic, because treating women (or men) kindly and respectfully pretty much guarantees companionship. But genuinely nice guys are not the ones complaining. The ones being all concerned about why women make these choices—and how they can change their silly womanish ways—are the Nice Guys. Nice Guys can’t understand why their anger, criticism and sense of entitlement fail to attract women, or only attract women they deem “beneath them.” They also don’t see that their need to dictate women’s behavior so that we can better attract them is belittling, douche-y, and classic abuser mode.
Frankly, the fact that this guy is so peevish about “childish” women and their “drama” that he’s writing to an advice columnist in a live thread makes me hopeful—his obvious frustration means the women around him must all have properly high standards and a fully-functioning bullshit detector.
See, I definitely get behind the “different definitions of arsehole” thing when it comes to the attitude Nice Guys have about women wanting jerks.
I can see how my other half could appear to be a jerk from the outside. He is loud, laughs at his own jokes, is opinionated and forthright and when drunk he DOES NOT SHUT UP. He is also longterm unemployed, spends a lot of time playing computer games at home and has something of a big ego.
He is also the kindest, gentlest, most loving and feminist man I have ever met. He is a pacifist and a humanist, and has done more to improve my self esteem than any therapy ever could.
There is no such thing as the “perfect” man. All relationships are a trade-off between accepting flaws and embracing annoyances, and enjoying the good parts. Just because Mr Nice Guy sees a woman’s other half as a jerk, doesn’t mean he is a jerk to her. Doesn’t mean he is a jerk in the areas where it counts.
Sorry. As one of those ‘nice guys’ I take offense that we have some kind of condition or anything else. Talk about sweeping generalizations. I can name a whole bunch of those nice guys…and yeah I know them real well. We tend to stick together. Women think they can change the bad boys. Oh also, us nice guys probably don’t look right to them; either too big, small, fat, skinny or like sci fi, computers, are smart, nice, like our parents and go home to Thanksgiving with both of them and our families.
Actually the friend where I found this post said the best thing: she says us nice guys wait around for the woman to wake up and see us. And thus we loose the shot. We need to take more action and also be more pro-active. And we need to be more observant to some subtle signals that those female friends through out to us, as we also want the good looking ladies also. So we need to wake up and wise up. Nice Guys forever!
[...] ****For definitions of Nice Guys ™, see this and maybe this [...]
[...] Nice Guys (TM) Finish Last–For Good Reason [...]
“Genuinely nice guys have nothing to worry about. Genuinely nice guys already have plenty of female friends, both platonic and romantic, because treating women (or men) kindly and respectfully pretty much guarantees companionship.”
So then I should be a “genuine nice guy” instead of a “nice guy” since it GUARANTEES (lol) companionship.
jkjk
I agree for the most part, but the point at which I take issue is the implication that women somehow are not taken in by the same patriarchal system that men are when it comes to choosing a mate. Our culture sets up the Untouchable Male as paramount, and both women and men fall prey to his charms. Women want to have him; men want to be him. So real change takes action on the part of BOTH mean and women–nice guys to move away from a sense of entitlement (if the Untouchable Man gets all the women, why can’t I have some) and women to recognize that the defition of what a man is can be just as nuanced and subtle as that of a woman.
We are all in different places on the scale of enlightenment; both men and women have things to learn about each other. But the way this essay is written makes it seem like only men have to do the changing.
I can offer one small defense of the original poster. If you strip his comments of the generalizations you find one small cry of frustration to which I can relate. How many of us have seen people we like and respect get wrapped up in relationships with other people who are clearly treating them like dirt. If you are having a hard time finding love and see that someone who doesn’t return phone calls, sleeps around, and generally insults their “partners” it can whirl up all matter of anger.
I suspect the original poster is someone young, like a teenager or in his early twenties, who is simply in a rut in the dating department while some less than savory types are simply rutting. No he does not deserve a cookie for not being an asshole, but I will throw him my sympathy for his plight.