Only Einstein could get a job these days.
Anyone who is half as overeducated and underemployed as I am could tell you that the academic market is Teh Suxxor.
Times are tough in every field, but combined with the increasing corporatization of the university, the production of more PhDs than there are positions for them, and the continued casualization of academic labor (meaning the hiring of more and more underpaid adjuncts who don’t get benefits or job security, or y’know, offices) means that it’s bleaker than average for this “profession.”
How bleak? In the humanities, anyway (the field I know about) approximately half of those who matriculate don’t graduate, but even with that attrition, approximately 2/3 of those who graduate don’t get tenure track jobs.
To use hard numbers: 100 people start grad school. 50 people earn PhDs. 17 get real jobs. (Last year, nobody got a job.) And those lucky few who do, work an average of 60 hours a week for far less money than than the hours and the training would merit: starting pay for an Assistant Prof in the Humanities runs between 42K and 50K at most universities. Less at a community college. The 33 who toil as adjuncts tape together schedules semester by semester, sometimes teaching as many as 10 classes per term to earn enough to stay solvent, at least until some crisis strikes. (A heavy load for the decently employed is 4 classes per term) . I couldn’t find 10 classes this term. I couldn’t even find 4. I am not solvent.
But that’s not the problem. Well it’s a major problem, but it’s not the problem I’m asking about.
I have a student, a senior, who accidentally turned in a Request for Recommendation form for an Ivy League university MA/PhD program to me, so I know she’s planning on applying. She’s very smart, a good writer, and a mega-achiever. She is the type of student for whom grad school was intended.
But.
But given the craptacular prospects for the excessively educated, I feel like I should say something. It feels irresponsible not to. But I don’t know his student very well, and and she hasn’t asked for my advice, so it also feels nosey.
The above XtraNormal video made the rounds on Facebook last week (and was also sent to me by a thoughtful reader). It’s a joke, obviously, but it’s also frighteningly accurate. Students have no idea what is expected of them, nor what they can expect 5-10 years down the line (hell, I can’t either, but I’ll wager that a humanities boom is not forthcoming.) They’re not reading The Chronicle of Higher Education, or Tenured Radical, or any number of other blogs that would cause the ivy-covered scales to fall from their eyes.
I wish I’d known before I began, if only to adjust my expectations. I do love teaching, and I do love my field, and my colleagues, but I can’t eat them (although I have some very tasty-looking colleagues). I feel I was sold of bill of goods, and the long, slow realization of how seriously fucked up higher ed is the US (I can’t speak to other countries’ systems) has been an enormous blow to my sense of…well, everything. My sense of Self, of Purpose, of How the World Works. I wish I’d known.
So my question is: should I say something to my student? Would she even listen if I did? This is really a question about balancing my knowledge/doubts against her ignorance/hopes. I don’t want to crush her dream, not at all, but I fear that the enterprise she’s hoping to embark upon will do just that. Parents: how do you handle the tricky balance of sharing the wisdom (or “wisdom”) of your experience without stepping over into meddling?
YES.
I tell my students about the job market all the time. I teach a “trade” so to speak, so prospects are better than you describe. But I tell them that STEM fields have a way of chewing people up and spitting them out (Dilbert cartoons), and that they just may top out at age 30 and that the jobs just may go to Asia, permanently.
So yes, tell her. Rehearse a short thing, a sentence or two, and that’s it. If she’s receptive, show her your blog posts here over the last few months.
As someone who just started grad school: I think you should say something. We in science land don’t have quite as bleak post-grad prospects, but I still wish I’d known going in how much stupid, political, pointless bullshit you have to put up with in grad school, and apparently that happens in every field. The only think leading me to put up with it is that I have a 90% certainty that it will actually help me get a fulfilling career eventually. If I was wrong about that, or didn’t have it in the first place? No fucking way. Here’s the thing: she can always go back. Tons of people work for a few years and then get an advanced degree, or apply and then defer. Working now doesn’t rule out grad school later and it might lead to less wasted time.
Yes! Counsel her. It is part of your role. You have to frame it in a way that is not totally soul crushing and still supportive of her hopes and dreams. I would ask her to come in (to your non existent office) and have a chat about what she hopes to achieve, let her start out so you get a sense of how realistic she is, praise her, then contextualize her dreams with reality. That is how I would do it.
I am forever grateful to a high school acting coach who told me, you’re a good actress, but that career success in that field depended on luck and looks above talent, and that someone who liked reading, writing and doing things other than make believe should pursue any option before acting, which should be reserved only if it was the ONLY thing I was willing to do with my life. I am SO GLAD I listened to her and am thrilled that I am not a struggling actor.
Another friend’s mom told me not to pursue a PhD in Performance Studies or Literature and to go to law school instead because she said that women aren’t brought up to go after power and money but I should think about it, and not get shunted into female-heavy, low status and low pay academia if I had other options. I’m not rich, and I took offense at the time, but now I see the wisdom of her comments and thank my lucky stars to have a profession that gives me options.
I agree that you should speak with her, but I please realize she may get offended or even hostile. I received similar advice when I was starting out, and I was polite but in my head I was thinking, “oh, that won’t happen to me.” I don’t know why I felt so cocky, but I was. Anyway, now I’m suffering, of course, and I recently had the opportunity to pay it forward when someone sought advice from me, and I didn’t say anything. And I regret that.
I agree with everyone else – definitely tell her about your experiences.
Even if she doesn’t listen, as least she’ll go to grad school with her eyes open. I think it would be far worse to spend all of that time and money pursuing something without knowing about how most current graduates fare.
I wouldn’t tell her what to do with the information, though. When I was in college I had some adults there share what they thought I should major in and what activities I should join. It didn’t change my mind but it did teach me to back away from telling them about my choices. They meant well, but it was off-putting to be told what to do as if I was still a child.
I agree with everyone who’s posted, but I don’t know that you will actually change her mind. I was in a PhD program in the sciences for 4 years before I realized that it was not for me and left with master’s degrees. I just didn’t have the attitude to finish the degree — success in grad school didn’t depend on smartitude or cleverness; it was really a “who can spend the most hours in the lab” contest. No thank you. However, if I knew when I applied what I know now, would I have not gone? Probably not, because there was simply nothing else I was interested in at the time.
Now I am in a big city law school, which is a better fit for me personally and professionally (I am already entrenched in my field of interest and am just looking to move up within my agency). However, a lot of my classmates (who are at the top of the class and on law review, all the right things) are having trouble getting interviews. Would they have done things differently? Probably not, because it is so long term. I started studying for the LSAT in March of ’08, started school in August ’09, and will finish in May ’13. I think a lot of people knew in ’08 that the market was bad, but was it unreasonable to think it might turn around in 5 years? Maybe, maybe not. The point is, a lot of people go to grad school because they can’t think of anything else to do and, whether they want to admit it or not, they are biding their time in some manner.
So I would counsel her about the realities and urge her to make two backup plans — one for the possibility that she gets out and finds no jobs, and one for the event that she finds herself in my position and is desperate to get out before it’s too late. Finally, I would tell her that I sincerely hope she proves me wrong.
It is a sucky situation for everyone, but talk to her so that, at the very least, your conscience is clear.
FWIW, I agree with everyone here who says you should make sure she knows what she’s getting into. It may not change her mind about going to grad school—not that you’re actively seeking to do that—but I always think it’s useful to have solid information from someone who knows whereof she speaks.
When I was applying to grad school in my chosen field I had plenty of people tell me that I was setting myself up for a career full of shitty pay and long hours. Then I went to grad school and was reminded constantly that even if I did managed to get one of the few jobs that were open, it would involve shitty pay and long hours. People tried to talk me out of it at multiple stages of my education/job search. But all those reality checks were very useful because I knew exactly what I was up against and could plan accordingly.
I’m going to second the idea of “say something but don’t be surprised if it’s not heard.” Maybe it won’t change a mind, maybe it shouldn’t, but it will have been said and the student won’t be able to claim naivety if things don’t happen as planned (if one more person with a Bachelor’s in English complains to me about not being able to get a job and no one told them it would be like this…I might hurt someone). Just do your best not to come across as bitter, though you may justifiably be so, as that will cause the student to absolutely ignore you.
People need to be more honest about this sort of thing in general. My theatre professors would sit around telling students they would be making $80k a year and they saw no conflict between working as a theatre professional and being a mother (because they were all men with children and they see no difference).
By all means tell her. I got myself a Master’s in Medieval Studies which is a HIGH demand area, let me tell you. No, actually, none of my little clique of classmates decided to go on for a PhD because we knew the job prospects were too few and far between.
We are all gainfully employed now, many of us in libraries and office positions that require a lot of research and writing. You CAN get a job with an advanced degree in the Humanities, just not an academic job.
It is too bad that we (by which I mean society as a whole) are killing the humanities. We will soon be raising a generation of people who are very good at wiring up computers and making money but can’t do anything else. Throg no need class on Drama in Late 17th-Century France; Throg have MBA. Throg rich!!
Absolutely, tell her. She may still decide to go. I still chose to enter a PhD program in the sciences, despite knowing that poor job prospects likely awaited me. But at least you’ll be sure she has an idea of what she’s getting herself into.
@dilene You made me laugh! But don’t feel too bad. Throg is only dreaming of becoming rich via computer wiring. It’s not gonna happen for Throg either.
Say something, but also reassure her that if this is really what she wants, you’ll support her and help her pursue it.
After 3 years out of college, I’m now in grad school pursuing an MA in English Lit with a long term goal of a PhD and teaching. I had the good fortune to marry someone with good job security, so my chronic underemployment is less of a “we can’t eat” problem and more of a “this kind of sucks” problem. But literature is what I love, and it’s what I’m good at, so it’s what I’m pursuing. We’ll see how it works out, I guess.
De-lurking to ask for any pointers for a student effectively discouraged from the grad school route? I always assumed I’d be going to grad/law school and I majored in what I loved – so I’ll be earning my BA in Philosophy in December and am scared witless. I’ve done well in college and have decent work/volunteer/leadership experience, but none of the 30+ jobs in various fields I’ve applied to so far are biting. Moving back in with my family for awhile is not an option, so I’m going to do what I have to do to get by, but that’s looking scarier and scarier. Even if it would screw me over in the long run, the happy, familiar little academic bubble that is grad school in my mind’s eye looks oh so tempting. It’s possible that your student just doesn’t know what else to do with herself.
I’m just past your student in the process: I applied last year and I’m in my first year as a PhD student at the same institution where I got my MA. I got “the talk” from people left, right and center. I’m still getting “the talk”. I got it from everyone who wrote a recommendation from me and I truly appreciated it, because I got several perspectives on the academy. The one that I appreciated the most was one professor who asked if I had a back up plan, what it was, and worked on fleshing it out more with me. I did, and still do, read The Chronicle, and also Historiann, but not Tenured Radical (since Historiann quotes TR all the time, I feel like I already am).
HOWEVER. I’ve also had professors tell me that it’s a total mistake to get a PhD in history because it will ruin my life. I can understand concern if I’m fresh out of undergrad, or if I’m clearly seeing the academy through rose-colored glasses. I wasn’t, and I thought I’d made it clear, but I guess I hadn’t.
There came a point where I had gotten “the talk” from my advisor so many times (during my MA, the recommendation process, and after I was accepted) that I actually asked him if, after 2 years and multiple conversations, he thought I was naive. I appreciated it the first two or three times – it meant he was concerned for me and my future, and wanted me to succeed. When it starts coming up in every meeting with the same person it becomes insulting.
I have friends who are already professors in the humanities and I got to watch as they went through the process – I know it’s hard. If I wanted to make tons of money at a fairly simple job I would have stayed in real estate.
Clearly this struck a nerve with me. I just got “the talk” again last week. It makes me wonder if my professors think I can’t hack it and they can’t come out and say it for some reason.
All of this is a really long winded way of saying: Yes, talk to her. Ask her if she has a back up plan. Ask her why she wants to do it. But respect her answers, even if you think she didn’t think things through. If she hasn’t, or if she’s unprepared, the program will weed her out. If she’s worth her salt, she won’t object to a meeting before you prepare the recommendation – I expected it. You’re putting your name and your reputation behind her, so she’d better be worth it.
So you know, there are those of us who consider this path but read enough academic blogs to know what’s going on out there. I love studying literature- LOVE it. So much. I’m doing an honors essay this semester, which essentially means independent study with my favorite English professor to write the longest paper of my undergrad career. It’s my first chance to do anything resembling “real” research and I wish I could spend every waking moment on it (stupid other classes). I’m pretty sure I fall into the same category as the student you mention- bright, motivated, strong writer, passionate about my studies? (that statement sounds super conceited)
But I’m not applying to grad school just yet, and certainly not in English! I want to see if there are other things I can do that will make me as happy as studying literature does, because the academic job market in the humanities is terrifying. If you think your student has NO IDEA what is out there, tell them- but I’d be careful of how, because they may be more aware than you think- and if they’re sure this is what they want, then what more can you do but help?
I got the talk from one of my profs my senior year of college. A slightly different talk, because it was the sciences. So prospects weren’t bleak, but as baraqiel and ausgezeichnet said, they warned me that grad school is less about science and more about lab-time, politics, and stubborn perseverance. You have to want that degree a lot more than I did.
I didn’t listen, mostly because I had no idea what else to do. But a year and a half in, that talk helped me decide to drop out, for which I’m grateful.
I don’t know – she probably has heard it before, and if you don’t have a close relationship with her (I did with my prof) I wouldn’t be surprised if she reacts with hostility. But do you want to risk that she hasn’t heard it? Or that she’s only heard if from her parents (Why don’t you want to become a doctor?!) and not from anyone who knows specifics first-hand?
As a student I say YES! Say something! Please!
It’s been my experience that there is a HUGE lack of honest guidance and advice for students- just a lot of what amount to sales reps for schools, and it’s really hard to tell what the next step is as you near the end of the bachelor’s degree. Please say something, even if she doesn’t listen now, she may remember what you said down the line and bail before she’s in over her head.
YES.
TELL HER.
It’s very important that someone is honest with my generation about what to reasonably expect (I’m currently finishing my B.A. in a humanities field) from graduate programs. The more I talk to my disillusioned teachers and look at job prospects, the more I’m realizing that I may very well be better off clutching my bachelors and getting a job that will support me while I write my book (yes, I’m one of THOSE). Grad school would still be all shiny and pretty and feel like a requirement if I hadn’t had these frank conversations with my teachers, and I’m very grateful.
YES, say something. I am currently in a MA program for Theological studies, with plans for a doctorate, and having “the talk”, in reasonable tones, has been helpful. I am well aware of what I am facing in the future, and honestly now. Just to stay in school full time, with a 5 course course load, I work three jobs. It helps that I have a tough time staying still, but it’s tough.
For me it boils down to the fact even though sleep has become a thing of the past, I love what I am doing, and what I plan to do. I would rather be busy and happy, than miserable and bored.
That being said, please don’t pass this on to my parents as they have no idea how bad it is out there, and I don’t want them to know!
I think maybe it would be better to leave it up to her if she wants your advice? It can be really invasive to have advice pushed on you, especially when you’re young and starting out and trying to feel your own way through your life.
So definitely say something, but rather than launching into your story, ask her if there’s anything you can do to help her navigate the process of applying, or give her a view into what’s ahead.
If you can open a real conversation, I think it’s much more likely your advice will be heard and remembered. And maybe there are unique circumstances that put her in a better-than-average position, like rich parents who can subsidize her grad school experience, or a feeling that as paltry as a grad school stipend may be, it’s better to wait out this terrible economy for a humanities graduate, and enter the non-academic job market a couple of years down the road.
If your student is as bright and capable as you say, you should respect that by starting the conversation assuming that she knows full well what she’s doing, not assuming she’s ill-informed and misguided.
I like the basic idea here. She wants to go to grad school and (presumably) make a career in academia. You have a buncha experience doing just that. She should (I would think) be thrilled to hear what you’ve learned.
Other people have already said it, though: She may not hear you, or she may have her own agenda, or she may think that there are other factors at play that will allow her to escape the life you describe. That said, at least she’ll have one more opinion in the pot when she makes her final decision. That’s never a bad thing.
From my own experience, I recently started law school, and I asked everyone I knew for their advice and opinions. At the time, I was kind of like … look. I’m old, unemployed, and I’ve thought about this for a very long time. I think I know what I’m getting into, more or less. So, people who were telling me that law as a career is not what people think, or law school is a lot of work, or look at Factor A not appealing Factor B when making your decision–I think that all went into the pot, but it’s only now that I’m in school and genuinely staring these issues in the eye that I fully understand what these people were trying to tell me. From the outside, the advice was kinda useful, but it clearly didn’t sink in the way it was intended to.
All that said, advice is advice, and advice is generally helpful, if not determinative. If you feel pushy making her listen, I’d at least offer to talk to her about your experiences if she wants to.
Thank you all, so much, for your thoughtful replies. I really appreciate the counsel.
First–or second, I guess–a clarification for Shadow Boxer: I’m not writing her a rec. The rec form got stuck in with something she turned in to me; that’s the only reason I know her plans.
So yes, I’ll say something. Or maybe email? Provided I don’t write a novel, maybe that’s the best way to just offer some thoughts and open the door to further conversation? Easy for her to ignore or engage, without worrying about feeling obligated to a current prof? Or is it weaselly-weak? Hmmm.
And I hear what you’re saying, Psyche. I don’t think my student is stupid or foolish. I just think she’s ignorant, focused on her plan, rather than the behind-the-scenes machinations of academia, because the uni system relies on keeping people ignorant.
And eep: I didn’t forget you. I think your concern is legitimate, and huge, might be better served in its own Help Me, Harpies! post. Would you (and other readers) be interested in that?
I think tell her but I will say that the biggest regret of my life is that I let myself be talked out of applying for a Phd based on a similar scenario. I love being journalist and writing what I write but I’ve always felt a tremendous ache for the academic subject I wished to study so much so that I’m applying next year for a program. It’s not that I wanted to be teacher I didn’t – I just really, really wanted to study my subject (history) in depth and I’ve always regretted that I did not do so.
Echoing the above! There are different ways to approach it (I always like somewhat open questions: “do you have anyone who you can talk to about the job market for academics and the placement rates for your field?” is a lot less daunting than “have you thought about how to deal with crushing disappointment?”, even if statistically, the latter is fully warranted.)
As someone who left law school once I got an in-office view of my *best* case scenario, I’m a huge proponent of making sure that people know what they’re getting into, even if you’re risking having the conversation for the nth time, and even if some of it needs to be lived to be believed.
And I like the idea of a separate reply to eep – there’s a lot of social support for going to grad school, less for cobbling together an income from depressing ‘in-between’ jobs (not working up the totem pole, but waitressing and tutoring since the economy sucks). That really exacerbates the problem of grad school being the answer to ‘I don’t know what I want to do, yet.’
Like @emilyanne, I feel I was kind of “talked out” of a career in the biological sciences and I have always felt some sadness and regret there. I realize now that people were just trying to “prepare” me for what would lay ahead: a true need for a graduate degree to do the work I wanted to do, additional debt load, lots of time spent in a lab, a not necessarily robust job market. However, I was very sensitive and insecure, and with so many people telling me the same things, I worried people were *really* saying, “You’re just not smart enough to do this,” despite my stellar grades in the subject matter at the college level!
Also, I’m a fairly friendly sort, and many people have such a negative view of science and scientists, they would say things like, “But you’re a people person! You need to work with people, not be stuck in a cold, dark lab all day.” I would love to work in a lab all day. I also like people! They are not mutually exclusive!
I guess my point to you (and anyone offering unsolicited advice) is: Be very careful. Be honest with yourself about what your agenda is. If you do decide to say something, assure her she has the smarts and grades, and that your advice is based on your experience only.
Upon re-read, I realize the “Be honest with yourself about your agenda” line will sound harsh. I simply mean to say that just because you feel strongly one way or another about a topic doesn’t mean others will. But I’m sure you already know that… :O)
A parental perspective here: I would feel that I had failed in my duties towards my kids if I hadn’t talked with them about their major life choices. I felt that it was my job to raise questions and concerns, though, not to decide which answers were the right ones.
Talk to her, but be sure to frame it so that there’s no way she can ever possibly interpret it as “You’re not smart enough to make the cut.” We senior undergrads are fragile creatures right now; assuming any level of healthy self-confidence may be a mistake. Keep it about how the profession is f-ed up, but emphasize that she’s absolutely bright enough, and if she chooses not to go into academia, it will be their loss and her gain.
Ooh I could go for some Harpy help input/Harpy career seminar – let me know if you want me to write out a more coherent query
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Sorry if my earlier post was a bit deraily, I think it’s just hard to take a lot of negative career input if one’s alternatives seem bleak. I was put off of academia as a career choice mostly by doing my own research. I’m not sure how I would have taken unsolicited advice not to go down that road, especially if I were already working on applications. People who aren’t well-acquainted with the realities of certain “status” careers (law, medicine, academia) tend to be unabashed cheerleaders for them. My mom, for example, is convinced that I need to get a PhD and Be A College Professor. I know she sees me as this brainy, offbeat kid and wants the best for me, and it’ll be hard for her to see me flail about in dead-end jobs for a bit. And I tend to care more about what my mom thinks than what people who are not my mom think. Ultimately it was a decision I came to on my own, and despite my uncertain prospects for the immediate future I’m glad I made it. I might feel differently if I’d felt someone had pushed me away from the JD or PhD route.
That said, it is pretty generous of you to offer sincere concerns to your student. I suppose you could ask if she wants to chat about grad school on the whole. Don’t set out trying to scare her off, but be honest about your experiences. The information is out there; she’ll get the full picture of life as a humanities PhD and beyond somehow (this is on the first page of a Google search for “English PhD programs”, for example http://www.phd-survey.org/advice/english.htm).
Honestly, if I were the student in this situation I would feel incredibly paranoid if a professor approached me with a friendly warning about grad school/careers. I would feel that she was questioning my abilities and hinting that I probably could not hack it. Perhaps that’s just my personality, but … I don’t know whether you should say anything unless she’s come to you personally.
Thank for the clarification – I’m busy reading like a grad student and missed the nuance. I still think you should say something, but frame it along the lines Alice used. I’d suggest keeping it low key and low pressure. An email would be perfect – she has the option to ignore it.
@ Eep: if you are the adventurous type, you could try teaching English abroad. Even if your major wasn’t in English, so long as you have an university degree (and look Caucasian), it’s not difficult getting a job. For Asians born overseas, it’s a bit more difficult getting English teaching jobs in Asia, except Korea (where being an American Born Koreans is a plus, not a minus).
I’m currently living and working in Asia, where many of my friends teach English. In Shanghai and Beijing in particular, they can be good stepping stones to doing other things “real jobs” in China.
I taught for a little while in Taiwan, and while teaching in Taiwan can be sometimes frustrating, living in Taiwan is a bit of a dream. The food is good, the locals are friendly, and the weather is like San Jose, CA, but more humid.
The pay is generally about 15- 20 USD an hour, and since living costs are low, it’s really easy to save money. That being said, you will probably encounter a lot of people like you, that are right out of college, and it’s easy to spend most of that money if you aren’t careful.
If you decide to do it, I would suggest living in a bigger city, and not a countryside town. It’s less of a culture shock and much easier to get things that you are familiar with (aka western food).
There is a recruiting agency that you can go through called Reach to Teach; they are generally pretty good about placing people, and they place people in China, Taiwan, Japan and Korea (I think). Do NOT go to a recruiting agency that asks you for money; the good ones get paid by the schools that advertise with them.
If you are interested, or have other questions feel free to email me: melodychangrocketmailcom
I think you should chat to her. I think if you’re as honest as possible about the drawbacks – and benefits – then you’ve done nothing wrong at all, and in fact she will probably thank you later, regardless of which path she takes, for opening her eyes.
This whole topic really makes my blood boil on so many levels. The way grad students are exploited, the lack of respect shown for academics in society in general (‘ivory tower! puh!’) and in their pay…
I’m doing a master’s now too and had actually read up on the job market before I decided to do this thing, so I actually asked one of my teachers from undergrad about it when I was thinking of applying. Her response to me is that things are indeed rough, so it would be good to have a back-up plan (like teaching high school) for the event that things didn’t work out – but she was still very encouraging on the whole.
I think things are not-quite-as-bad in a lot of ways in the UK though, which is one of the reasons I’ve decided not to apply for the PhD stateside (which is kind of a shame, because there are a LOT of great schools there…as you all know). For one thing, the PhD only takes three years, so you can get out earlier if necessary (I’ll be 27 when I finish, young enough to make that switch to high school teaching or whatever without too much hassle). And PhD students might do a bit of teaching here or there, but they aren’t expected to fund themselves by it and don’t get exploited in quite the same systematic way. Staying has its drawbacks too – you finish with less teaching experience, for example, and I know American unis prefer to hire people with American degrees – but for me they’re important enough pluses that I’m staying put.
Whoops. My email is melodychang(at)rocketmail(dot)com.
Whoops. My email is melodychang(at)rocketmail(dot)com.
Sorry for hijacking the thread.
Addenda, now that I’ve read all the comments:
-Yes to a Harpy Seminar for Eep, but I second the teaching English abroad idea. Not bad money and it gives you time to think all of this over in a less stressful environment than your last year of college.
-I’m not sure if I would write an email about this – I think if you had a conversation face-to-face, you’d be able to see the girl’s reactions and respond to them, and make sure that the message was being understood in the right way. Email can be a tricky medium. It would be one thing if she had solicited your advice, but since she hasn’t…
Wow, thanks for the input so far! I would love to teach/live abroad, especially since I didn’t study abroad in college. I think this is a good pointer for people in similar situations, but wouldn’t work for me personally. I am unfortunately somewhat place-bound in the US. I hate to be all “I need to move to New Yorrrrk” because I’m not that high-maintenance and could be happy in a large number of places, including parts of Asia most likely, but… I’d really prefer to move to New York, considering my boyfriend of 2 year is there, and putting an end to the long distance part of our relationship is like the only thing motivating me right now.
Yes, please tell her. It’s only now that I’ve left my PhD and am pursuing another path that I am seriously thinking about what the job market would have been. I heard bits and pieces over the years about the poor prospects, but no one ever talked to me seriously about it. I wish they had. I was given praise and awards and made to feel like the hardest part was getting the dissertation done. And that is hard. But what is also hard is hearing about intelligent, wonderful friends who I met in my grad school years, who are gifted teachers and who are now moving from shitty temporary position to shitty temporary position. Please tell this student. Who knows if it will change her mind, but it’s better, so much better, to know what you’re getting into.
I agree with everyone. Just say something like, listen take this advice or leave it I just would like to share my own experiences…
Dunno if you’re still reading this thread (or if you care about a lurker’s opinion), but I disagree with the consensus.
Personal aside: I have a major chronic illness. Before my life-saving organ transplant I trudged around NYC for two years with a tube up my nose linked to an oxygen tank in my backpack. I’m a private person, and having to literally wear my most private issue on my face every day was awful. I doubt I made eye contact with anyone for 2 years.
But every so often I’d get approached by someone who just HAD to tell me about this green tea that made breathing easier, or about her cousin’s babysitter’s boyfriend who used to get sick all the time until he started taking Ginseng or whatever. And I knew they were well meaning so I’d just smile and nod and say thanks…but I just wanted to be left alone. Everything that could be done was already being done by me, my family, and my doctors.
My point is that not everyone is receptive to well-meaning strangers. If I were your student I would not want you to approach me. The odds of your imparting something that the student hasn’t already heard are IMHO quite low.
I should note that due to my medical situation, “err on the side of caution” is the guiding principle of my life, so perhaps I’m being too sensitive…but shy, sensitive types tend to be drawn to academia, so it’s possible (likely?) that your student would feel the same as me.
Don’t recommend she look into library science instead. I don’t really think you would, but I know of several partially-employed librarians who were talked out of grad school and recommended another sort of grad school, only to find out that library employment is almost as bad off.
But I agree, mention it. Tell her your own experiences, and let her decide.
I’m reading, lurker. And I understand your point; it’s exactly why I posted the question. If I had a closer relationship with this student, I’d feel fine about saying something. I’m not a stranger, but I’m not her mentor, either.
And she might possibly know the job situation and not care, or think it will improve, or feel that she will certainly be in that 17%. But if she doesn’t know? It’s about wanting to save her what grief I can down the road, even though I’m not her mentor (if she even has one). I could not, in good conscience, recommend that any humanities student pursue a PhD at this time, unless they are independently wealthy and approach it as a serious, beloved hobby.
I think I’m going to keep my ear to the ground for the nonce, maybe ask her how applications are going and see if she might be receptive to advice. It’s not that I want her NOT to go. It’s that I tremble for her going without having a better picture of the likely outcomes.
ETA: Again, thanks to all of you for your responses. They’ve been very helpful.
As someone who is currently applying to grad programs in English, I don’t know how I feel about this scenario. (I’m in Canada, where the university system is slightly different.) On the one hand, you have her best interests at heart, but on the other hand this seems a bit… condescending? Given the constant barrage we Humanities students hear about how useless our subjects are and how we’ll never get jobs with English and Philosophy degrees, she’s probably well aware of many of these issues already. If you really want to help I would ask her to come have a chat with you, and start by saying, “I found this reference request by accident, and I was wondering if I could help you with anything relating to your application. Do you have any questions that I can answer?” And take it from there. If she seems well-informed about the risks and trials of an academic life, don’t push it.
This really does hit home for me because I know many people think I’m applying to graduate programs because I don’t know what else to do. Explaining that I have a passion for research, writing and my chosen field of study really doesn’t dissuade them. For me it’s not that I can’t think of anything else to do — I certainly can, and have applied to many jobs that seem fun and interesting. But I know in my heart what I want to do with my life, and it’s academia.
And for the record, no, I haven’t been able to find a job with my lowly English BA, but I think it’s less my “fault” for majoring in something so “unpractical” and more a statement about what kinds of skills our society values. It’s also not a secret that those skills are coded as male. So when I say that I’ve been unemployed for eight months, and people say, “What did you expect with your English degree?”, that really bothers me. I’m sorry that I’m terrible at math and science and that my skills in writing, reading, critical thinking and empathizing aren’t deemed valuable on the job market, but what was I supposed to do, fail out of school halfway through a science degree?
I also want to add that not everyone getting a PhD wants to be a professor. I’m fully open to the idea of a career in library science, museums, non-profits or arts admin. But I do want to pursue a PhD, have the opportunity to delve more fully into my research interests, write more papers, and so on. If that seems irresponsible to some people (not saying anyone on here has expressed this attitude, I’m thinking more of my family members), well, it’s my life, my money and my time.
dancingteacups, you wrote “But I know in my heart what I want to do with my life, and it’s academia.”
I know that about myself, too. But my point, and the problem,is: what we want is our idea/l of academia. Which doesn’t exist any more, if it ever really did. F’real academia is not what we think/thought is is/was. That’s what’s so crushing, and what I would want my student to know.
I’m de-lurking to say that I would really love a larger conversation on Eep’s question about what to do when you realize that grad school isn’t a great option. What does a person do when all they know is reading, writing and thinking?
As for the question at hand, I’d add my two cents but it’s all been covered. I vote for starting a conversation and seeing if she’s receptive to advice. Personally, none of my advisors have said anything to me about the risks/downsides of grad school yet (and I keep expecting “the talk”), and I would really appreciate an honest, realistic conversation.
And if I can add on to PhDork’s last comment: even if we know that what we want to do is ‘f’real academia’ – academia might not want us. That’s what we have to keep in mind, even if we decide to give it a go anyway.
@Endora Yes. Exactly. A while back my boss said: “Find something that you love to do, and you’ll never feel like you are working.” and I just nodded along. Other people repeat that aphorism all the time.
But really I think: that’s pure bullshit. For you, my boss, it depends on the fact that the world values what you love to do. But if you loved to pick lint out of your belly button you’d be s.o.l.
So guess the msg. here boils down to this: you need to follow your bliss with the understanding that it might not lead to money.