I leave later this week for ten days in Germany. It was not my first choice of vacation destinations, but a Nice Jewish Boy of my acquaintance got a two-month gig working at a German newspaper and asked me to keep him company.
This is my first trip to Germany; it’s the only major Western European country I have never visited (and by “major” I mean that I’ve missed out on the teeny-tiny charms of microstates like Andorra and Lichtenstein). Truth is, I’ve never been able to give Germany a fair shake. I’ve been told constantly that I shouldn’t hold present-day Germany responsible for 1940s Germany, even though 1940s Germany killed every single member of my family living in Europe at the time. I’ve been told that post-war German culture is pacifist and liberal-minded, and to be fair, nearly every younger German I’ve met—and I’ve met a lot professionally—fits that description. More than one of them has told me, either obliquely or forthrightly, that they are horrified and ashamed of…y’know…and since Germany is not that way any longer, I should try not to dwell on the past, and instead focus on Germany as it is now.
I am not entirely convinced. I tend to subscribe to Faulkner’s famous aphorism: “The past is never dead. It isn’t even past,” which I find even more resonant for Jews than for Southerners. History has shown that evil has an extremely long half-life; its effects don’t simply disappear in a generation and a half. Americans are still struggling with the toxic racist legacy of slavery, even though it was abolished 145 years ago, so when someone tells me that Germans have vanquished racial hatred less than 70 years after committing widespread genocide…I have my doubts. Even Germany’s Prime Minister admits that “multiculuralism has utterly failed” there. Germans continue to elect members of the white supremacist NDP party to local office. Recently, a prominent economist gained significant popular support for his bestselling, eugenics-flavored book about how Germans are being “dumbed down” by immigrants genetically predisposed to lower intelligence (but apparently us Jews are “of higher intelligence” because we all “share certain genes.” Gee, thanks, dude.). A 2010 study by the center-leftist Friedrich Ebert Foundation reported that 17% of Germans felt “Jews had too much influence” and 13% of Germans said they would welcome a Führer (yes, that means what you think it does) to “rule with a firm hand.” The study concluded that extremism in Germany isn’t relegated to the fringe but is found, “in all social groups and in all age groups, regardless of employment status, educational level or gender.”
If the recent election cycle in the US taught us anything, it’s that wackjobs and political extremists can become way more mainstream and attract way more takers than you might expect, particularly during hard times. Knowing that, and seeing how the politics of hate work in my own culture makes me even more leery of a country that succumbed so completely to them, and within recent memory. I can’t shake my native Jewish paranoia that I might wind up in a scene like this famous (and oft-censored) musical number from “Cabaret”, where you’re hanging out in a nice beer garden and everything seems lovely at first and then becomes…very, very scary.
That said, I believe that prejudices should be put to the reality test. I have learned from past travel experiences that pre-conceived notions can disappear quickly once you take them on the road. I’ve fallen in love with places I thought I would hate (Mississippi) and wound up loathing places I thought I’d love (the Bahamas). I will take pictures and let you know how it goes.
I am also gratefully accepting all recommendations of things to do and places to eat in Hamburg and Berlin—especially Hamburg, since that’s where I’ll be spending most of my time. Vielen danke!
Travel safely, Becky. It’s not a place I’d ever go, but there’s certainly a vibrant Jewish community there. And I shudder to think what you’d hear if you asked Americans those same questions. Okay, you’d have to translate “furher”. Would a picture of Rush do?
My only experience with Hamburg was the train station (did you know that if you take a train from Copenhagen to Germany that it gets on a boat?), but I really enjoyed Berlin. The Pergamon Museum is the best museum I’ve ever been to (hello, Gate of Ishtar and Code of Hammurabi!) We also just spent a lot of time wandering around and eating ethnic food.
Btw, the metro system is on the honor system, but they take it seriously. There are plainclothes inspectors that pop up frequently to check tickets.
Do you ask the same questions of the all the European nations who were complicit in rounding up the Jews and others who died in the camps?
Like many Germans they did not vote for the Nazis but many atrocities were committed in their name and by many of them.
Right wing sentiments and anti-immigration feelings are prevalent across Europe and I wonder if you have issue with those countries for a holiday too?
I believe you will be pleasantly surprised. Germany does not seem the nation that once held the world in its thrall twice. The people are friendly and courteous, and the countryside is breathtaking in many places. I spent most of my trip there in southern Germany, and never ventured to Berlin, but given my knowledge of WWII and the destruction wrought upon the country, I was prepared for the worst and saw the best.
@gherkenfiend: I am definitely aware of anti-Semitism, racism and xenophobia in other European countries. And yes, it’s something that occasionally informs my travel plans (I have little desire to visit Poland for similar reasons, and have been careful not to identify myself as a Jew in some European countries where I know it could cause problems ).
But to your point about other nations: there’s a pretty stark difference between between occupied nations which collaborated with the Third Reich—and whose citizens often had active organized Resistance movements—and the nation which elected the Third Reich to power and provided the means and manpower to carry out its genocide.
When I first traveled through Europe, I was looking forward to Germany the least. I ended up immensely surprised — I LOVED it. (Then again, I’m half German, so.) The Black Forest is beautiful, and Berlin was amazing. Very progressive, a thriving community, and of course incredible history.
I’m with gherkenfiend – you’d get similar if not more extreme responses in any other European country and probably even the world. In fact I’d probably expect the Germans to be much more reserved in voicing prejudice than the rest of Europe precisely because of their past – they’ve been browbeaten so badly for the atrocities of WWII that doing penance has almost become a defining characteristic of the nation (for what it’s worth, if I were to hazard a guess I’d say that that is also one of the biggest differences between Germany and the Southern US states – the second as far as I can tell have been far less exposed to the condemnation of the rest of the world, particularly that part of it that resides outside the borders of their own country and not at all of course to that of countries regarded as more powerful/important than their own).
Give Germany a chance! I’m more familiar with Bavaria than the rest of the country, but it’s a beautiful place and the people are as polite and friendly as anywhere else.
I don’t mean this to sound overly aggressive, but didn’t you once mention traveling to Zimbabwe at the height of the Mugabe regime’s madness? I have lots of friends who refuse to visit Israel out of concern for their policies to Gaza. I also think that is silly, though it is slightly more understandable as arguably the tourism money fuels active ongoing abuses. This is not in any way to compare what is happening in Gaza or Zimbabwe with the Holocaust, by the way. I do understand on an emotional level as my own (Irish Catholic American) mother has to reaaallly hold her nose to visit me in London, and can’t get through 3 days with my (totally anti imperialist) husband without picking a fight about Oliver Cromwell. In any case, I hope that you and she both enjoy your travels to hated lands of former oppression! Happy travels.
Also, obvs check out the Jewish Museum in Berlin!
@JDRegent: Yes, I did go to Zimbabwe in 2007, although I was in a region that was (relatively) unaffected by the worst of Mugabe’s insanity.
I think that’s an apples and oranges comparison though—you’re talking about visiting countries where I oppose the government (but do support the people of that country) whereas I’m talking about visiting countries that have a history of actively targeting my particular ethnic group.
@gherkinfiend and Fuschia: I think Becky was talking more about the way she feels about Germany than what her actual expectations are about interactions with people. It would be hard for any Jew not to be intensely aware every moment of Germany’s history. Remember that there are still living survivors of the Holocaust, and it’s very much a part of our world view. That will change over time, but it’s not an unfair feeling to have. She’s not calling all living Germans Nazis. And for what it’s worth, I wouldn’t set foot in Poland either, which is still crawling with Jew haters, nor would I be too crazy about visiting Russia.
@Fuschia: browbeaten? If we’re talking about today’s Germans, maybe. If we’re talking about the war generation, that’s an odd word to use. They, like the survivors, are still among us, and a generation or more of living Germans allowed war criminals to hide in plain sight. But you undercut your own argument when you say that they may not voice their real feelings. The problem could, in fact, be worse than the numbers would indicate.
@JD: is the height of Mugabe madness over?
Oooh, I have a lot to say on this one, apologies in advance for length.
Becky, I can understand why you feel the way you do, but I actually think that in a lot of ways modern day Germany can be a model for the rest of us.
Part of the reason that the US struggles with its history of slavery, the UK with its history of colonialism, etc. is that they haven’t thoroughly confronted that past. The Germans have, over and over and over again. All German children cover the war at length in school; all of them visit at least one concentration camp.
After the war – roughly until the 60s – very few Germans were willing to really examine the past. Most of them just wanted to rebuild and move on. That changed with the next generation of Germans. 1968 was a bigger movement in Germany than in France, although less famous, because its protests had a wider-reaching significance of being a reckoning with the older generation and their silence on the crimes of the past.
From that time on, that whole era of history has been a central part of the new Germany’s understanding of itself. Up until the last few years, hardly any Germans would tell you they were patriotic or proud to be German – not only because of the German past, but because it had taught them the way that patriotism could be abused, and they were unwilling to so identify with their country again. One of the most influential ideas on the subject was Habermas’s idea of ‘constitutional patriotism’ – the idea that one should be proud of one’s country, not for any kind of inherent good qualities or traditions, but because of a good constitution and laws. I’m very leery of patriotism myself and find this concept much more convincing than any justification of nationalism I’ve heard yet.
Germans are very much still aware of all of this history and minimizing the Holocaust is a huge cultural taboo – which I think is a good thing!
Of course, there are Germans who are racist, anti-Semitic, etc. But I’d venture to guess that it’s less common there than in a lot of other Western European countries where the people haven’t had to face up to the consequences of such thinking in such a way. The NDP is very much a fringe party (and every time they march there are counter-protests). Mein Kampf is still illegal, as are the Nazi salute and any kind of Nazi propaganda. Sarrazin’s book was bullshit, but I don’t think it was particularly German bullshit, someone anywhere could have written it. And while I dislike the idea that anyone would need a strong leader, I should point out that ‘Führer’ just means leader in German and that not everyone who voted in that poll will have been saying they want Hitler back.
Anyway. Enough about that. Let’s transition to Berlin, my favourite city in the world.
First of all, the entire city is a museum – it was completely destroyed in the war, but there are reminders of what happened everywhere. That can be upsetting, but I also really appreciated it when I lived there because it is like a permanent reminder never to forget. You should definitely be sure to see the Memorial for the Murdered Jews of Europe, the Topography of Terror, and the memorial for the book burnings of 1933 (located across the street from the Humboldt University – it’s very simple but all the more moving for it. Make sure someone translates the Heine quote on the ground in front of it for you!!! I would give it to you now but that might ruin it…).
Checkpoint Charlie can be skipped IMHO.
The Alte and Neue Nationalgalerien are both really good for art, and the Martin-Gropius-Bau often has good exhibitions on (the Frida Kahlo one they had a few months back was amazing). The Neues Museum has just been reopened and is supposed to be really good – you can see that famous bust of Nefertiti there. I’ve recently heard that the Bröhan Museum – full of Jugendstil stuff – is really good although I’ve never been.
The Tiergarten is a lovely park and worth a wander through if the weather is good. You get a good view from the top of the Reichstag and looking down on the parliament from the roof (the glass dome symbolizes transparency) is interesting.
Eats:
-Yellow Sunshine veggie fast food joint in Kreuzberg (Wiener Straße)
-The whole Bergmannstraße is full of lovely cafes
-TUBI vietnamese restaurant in the Leibnizstraße
…but one of the best things about Berlin is that it is super-cheap, so you’ll be able to find affordable, good food pretty easily.
Oh, and I agree with JD, the Jewish museum is excellent.
@Endora: Thanks for those recommendations! Very helpful. Everyone I’ve talked to about Berlin says the same thing about it being a place where you can get really good food for cheap. I’m going to wind up eating six meals a day there. I think you’re the third or fourth person who’s told me to skip Checkpoint Charlie, so I’ll drop that from the list.
I think your points about Germany being forced to confront its past are very true, and I think that when it comes to being clear-eyed and responsible, they’re way ahead of, say, France, where I’ve been amazed by the number of people who have told me that, mais bien sûr, their grandparents were in the Resistance and no one really supported the Vichy government. Then in the next breath they made some nasty anti-Semitic or racist remark. That experience is quite different from, for example, the time I visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem with a number of my German colleagues, all my own age. They were just undone by it, we all sat around crying together, for different reasons.
Oh, and I agree about Sarrazin’s book being bullshit, and not uniquely German bullshit—it’s not like we don’t have folks saying similar things about Latinos in the US, for example—but I think context matters, and history makes the context different in Germany than it would be in other countries.
Oddly, I’ve always felt a bit conflicted about the fact that Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany, and the banning of Nazi symbols. Obviously, I abhor those things, but I also feel that an outright government ban on them is a violation of free speech. Do you think those bans have made a difference culturally in Germany?
@Becky: You’re welcome for the tips! You’ll have to let me know how you get on.
About Sarrazin: context does matter, but on the other hand, you can’t expect Germany to be completely immune from the kinds of immigration debates that are affecting all of Europe at the moment, unfortunately.
And on Nazi symbols – I have no problem with the ban. Free speech always has limits where that speech starts to hurt other people (slander etc.), and in the German context, I think it’s totally legitimate to view Nazi symbols as doing just that. I think the legal way they get around the speech issue is by saying that Nazi symbols are ‘Volksverhetzung’, i.e. ‘incitement of the people (to violence)’. Sounds like a fair judgement to me.
Oops, just realized I didn’t answer your question. I don’t think the bans are the *reason* that people are anti-Nazi, but I do think they help set a certain tone (along with all kinds of other things) about what is acceptable and not. And quite honestly, I would find it really disturbing to be faced with Nazi symbols there or anywhere else, and am glad to have a guarantee of sorts that it won’t happen – and think most Germans feel the same way, so it’s also a kind of courtesy to all of us…
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@Endora: I hadn’t really considered the “incitement to violence” aspect of it. The US has similar anti-intimidation statutes that make cross-burning illegal. And yes, always better to not have white supremacist symbols floating around.
There was a really interesting article in the NY Times last week about German Jews who are serving in the Bundeswehr (a small number, granted) and quoted them as saying that they don’t feel conflicted about putting on a German military uniform, although they might have 10 years ago. It took me some time to get my mind around that, but if they say it’s not an issue for them…more power to them, I guess?
@mischief manager
I don’t mean to suggest that the Germans intentionally hide their prejudice – rather that their history and their country’s bad reputation abroad has served as an excellent reminder of the consequences of hateful policies, creating public debate on issues that in other places are excused or swept under the rug and providing incentive to prove themselves as a nation (or basically, what Endora said). I do think the open-mindedness of modern Germany is honest – much more so in fact than any other European country.
Obviously however I don’t mean to dismiss that the (perfectly understandable) negative connotations anybody – especially somebody Jewish – may have with the country.
@Becky: That is interesting. Although I suppose if you are German and not anti-military, why not? Nowadays I think you can say that the Bundeswehr is a totally different entity from the Wehrmacht. I wouldn’t serve in it though – not because it is the German army, but because I wouldn’t serve in any military.
That reminds me of an example of German pacifism I could give you: some of my friends (of the 68er generation) get very agitated when they talk about the Germans being in Afghanistan and in Kosovo back in the 90s. Their reasoning? ‘The German army has caused enough harm in the world. They shouldn’t leave our borders’.
By the way, I think one of the key things to keep in mind about the whole WWII legacy is that the main question is not ‘how could the Germans have done that?’, but, ‘how could HUMAN BEINGS do that?’. Because the really scary thing about it, if you get into it, is what Arendt called the ‘banality of evil’ – most Nazis were not monsters. They were ‘normal’ people who were capable of doing terrible things. If you ask me, everyone – German, American, Russian, English, Israeli, Indian – should dig deep and recognize that potential for evil within themselves if we are ever to move beyond it.
@Endora: Very true, and while I hate how Nazi imagery is overused and exploited by everyone on both sides of the political spectrum, the Nazis are an excellent object lesson in how ordinary people can wind up extremist—or at least, extremist-condoning. There were reasons extremism got a foothold in Germany in the ’30s and ’40s, but it would be naive to assume that it was a one-time thing, or limited just to Germany.
For me, as a Jew, I feel like that’s why I feel on alert more than non-Jews. I’m never quite convinced it’s not going to happen again, and to me this time. (Which, I suspect, is a large part of the reason that Israelis are so damn aggressive).
@Fuschia: Agreed. The Germans have done an enormous amount, especially via the arts, to confront what their country did during WWII. I respect them for that; God knows it’s more than we ever did here in regard to slavery.
FWIW, my Jewish gay brother *loves* Berlin. He travels all over Europe for work and thinks that it is the hippest city anywhere.
Becky, I understand your reservations, but what I know from the little time I spent in Deutschland–in beautiful, wonderful, magnificent Berlin–and what I’ve read about it in recent years, is that the face of German racial/national yuckiness is centered on Turks/Muslims (sometimes both, sometimes just one or the other). That doesn’t make it any better, of course, and but for the legacy of the 30s and 40s, is no worse than run-of-the-mill racist shitbirds (that would be Scheißevogelen, right?) in any other nation.
It’s too bad that you’re not a drinker, because Oh! The beer! It would go so well with all the wurst and doner and such you’ll be gobbling. There’s a lovely lovely little cafe/patisserie right near the Staatsoper Unter Den Linden. Gemuchlichkeit out the wazoo.
@PhDork: You’re totally right about racism being centered on Turks/Muslims. But I must let the pedant in me out and tell you that, while you’re on the right track, the word I believe you’re looking for is ‘Scheißvögel’ (‘Vogel’ goes plural by adding an umlaut rather than an -en).
Well, crap. Taken down by an umlaut. That’s what I get for trying to be clever.
Ah, full disclosure first: I’m a second generation half-German with a tattoo that reads Mein Herz fur den Vaterland (My Heart for the Fatherland) (tho I also have a Sioux language one for my mother as well).
I ran this past my fiancee, who (admittedly) is Israeli and never resided in Europe, but has been to Germany with me once. He never lost relatives to German aggression, but lost a few to the Russian-initiated pogroms. His family has had a lot of strife because the Russian government is not especially forthcoming with information about the victims and actually sometimes refuses to discose mass grave locations.
I don’t think that one can so easily draw a line between “collaborating” and “actively participating.” The pogroms were independently initiated in different regions of Eastern Europe both before and after the Holocaust happened. I also think it opens up the “well, they started it” defense. There is no acceptable reason or lower standard of culpability in my opinion when genocide is involved. The Sig O (signigicant other) also mentioned something interesting to me. He said, “The fact that Germany lays claim to a high number of victims is irrelvant to me. Genocide should never be judged by the numbers it actually killed. If it killed any, it is an atrocity. Using numbers to judge it is a pissing contest nobody should engage in.”
It’s sorta odd for me too. I’m half Sioux. I live in the same nation that perpatrated great crimes against my ancestors. I have no doubt that some of my neighbors ancestors probably perpatrated some of those crimes. I’ve commited myself to taking people one by one and at face value.
And I’m not trying to pick your facts here AT ALL, but that poll you cited about German attitudes and welcoming back the Fuerher, it’s interesting. The same poll was administered in France, and the French actually scored HIGHER in both those questions (17% favor a Fuehrer in France). Odd, I know. I chalk it up to, well, Frenchiness…
Drahill, I think what you said about your tattoo is fascinating. You see, I think very few Germans would feel comfortable having a tattoo of anything Germany-related (maybe, maybe a football and the German flag for the World Cup, but even that is a stretch), much less ‘Mein Herz für das Vaterland’. You’d start to think that person votes differently from you, to put it mildly. And I perceive Vaterland as having strong nationalistic connotations nowadays (certainly few lefties would speak of it in positive terms)*.
I’m absolutely sure that that is not how you mean it, or what the tattoo means for you, and I don’t mean to criticize you for having it – but I think your family, being Germans who left before the war (I assume), are an interesting case, as they obviously managed to leave while German patriotism was still a less complicated matter and that seems to have been passed on to you.
*There is a song by Reinhard Mey where I think this comes out quite clearly, it starts like this:
‘Dein Bild in den Spätnachrichten,
Wimmernder, sterbender Soldat.
Eine Zahl in den Kriegsberichten,
Ein Rädchen im Kriegsapparat,
Für einen Schachzug zerschossen
Und für ein Planquadrat im Sand,
Für einen Wahn hast du dein Blut vergossen
Und immer für irgendein gottverdammtes Vaterland!’
(‘Your picture in the late-night news
Whimpering, dying soldier
A number in the military reports
A little wheel in the war apparatus
Shot dead for the sake of a chess move
In the sand for a square of land
You spilled your blood for a delusion
And always for some god damn Vaterland’).
@drahill: I don’t think that one can so easily draw a line between “collaborating” and “actively participating.” It doesn’t excuse the collaboration, but I think you can make a pretty good argument that the Germans did start it. The French would not have deported 250,000 of their citizens to concentration camps had France not been occupied by the Nazis. Nor would the Belgians or the Dutch or the Poles. The fact is, the concentration camps and the machinery of genocide would not have existed if the Germans had not built them. Without the Nazis, there would have been no widespread genocide, just small-scale local violence, which Jews always experienced in Europe. And while I agree with your boyfriend that even one victim of genocide is too many, I don’t want to dismiss the scale of the Holocaust because that would diminish both the lives of the victims and the responsibility of their murderers. Six million victims is not the same as six hundred.
It doesn’t surprise me at all that the French scored higher on those questions. As I said to Endora, I think the French are a lot less clear-eyed and responsible about their role in the Holocaust (and their continuing problems with anti-Semitism and xenophobia).
Just out of curiosity, why did you pick that slogan for your tattoo? Does that saying have personal significance to you? I ask because if I had seen that tattoo on a stranger, I would have automatically made the same assumption that Endora mentioned—references to the Fatherland make me cringe—but right-wingy politics were obviously not your intent.
Becky,
The reason for the tattoo is a reference to my grandfather, who used to say that. My family last name used to be Hillebrand (very German name). When my grandfather arrived in America in 1940, he was harrassed and terrorized by his neighbors who thought he was a Nazi collaborator or sending aid to the enemy. It was so severe that he made the decision to move to rural Montana (where they apparantly don’t care who you are as long as you pull your weight). He also changed the family last name to Hill (which is mine, to this day). My grandfather, although he became a citizen, was also bitter about the fact that people judged him by his ethnic origin alone and he also used to repeat, “My heart went back to the Fatherland. My heart is for it.” So yes, I totally get that the words themselves sound really nationalist. I never really heard them as a statement of pride – more like a statement of anger and sadness. I got it in his memory, but also to remind me that America needs a lot of work when it comes to being accepting.
The sig o. and I have actually been carrying on this conversation for a few hours. I think a point he brought up was interesting – he mentioned that it is somehow ironic that Germany is often saddled with an image of genocide, partly because the governments there have gone to great pains to make the history of the Holocaust transparent and widely known. He suggested that perhaps places like Russia and others who initiated anti-semitic campaigns have escaped this partially because they have taken steps to quash the history of them or refuse to acknowledge certain things occurred. I’m not sure on that point, but I’m considering it now…
I spent a few days in Hamburg (came in and left on a freighter). I remember it as being a place with a lot to do, although it was pretty cold at the time.
We purchased a transit pass that allowed us to move at will around the city (and would get us back out to where the ship was berthed. We visited the Alster Lakes, the Rathaus (town hall), the botanical gardens (great on a cold day as they have tropical exhibits). We also did the typical tourist bus tour around the city, and a boat tour that included the container port. Off season though, the boat tour is only offered in German (but hey, we got a discount).
We weren’t there on a Sunday, but I understand that the Fischmarkt is well worth a visit. There is (from what I hear) a great zoo and planetarium, which might be nice if you want to avoid german culture at times.
As for food, I can’t think of any specific places… however we had hamburgers at a place across from the main train station that claimed to be the home of the hamburg. No, I don’t buy it, but it was busy and pretty good. What seemed most popular around the city though was ‘currywurst’. We tended towards lunches while out during the day and combination stuff for cold dinners when back on the ship.
Oops – meant to add that my traveling companion (my mother) lived during WWII and had bombs dropped on her village. It wasn’t specifically a place she would have chosen to visit, but she did enjoy her visit.
@drahill: ah, that makes sense about the tattoo. I’m sure you grandfather would have appreciated how much his words and experiences touched you.
I don’t agree with your s.o. about it being “ironic” that Germany is saddled with the stigma of genocide. It’s right and proper that they bear that stigma. Germany may be more transparent about the crimes of the Third Reich and have tried to do the right thing after the fact, but just as you don’t get a cookie for doing the right thing, admitting your guilt doesn’t mean you should escape the blame, or the stigma.
Yes, other European countries have had violence against Jews, but none of those countries made the complete extermination of a Jews the centerpiece of government policy, and with such fatal consequences. The fact that others have better been able to cover up their smaller genocides simply means they escaped the stigma. Frankly, Germany never had the chance to escape the stigma even if they’d wanted to because the genocide was far too widespread and well-documented—often by Germans themselves.
Becky,
I think the problem here is that we can’r really debate the issue of government-sactioned genocide without creating a moral equivalency argument. Because I’m half-Native, I’m extremely aware of other examples of government-sanctioned acts of genocide against groups other than jews (namely, to my knowledge, the Minniconjou Sioux genocide of 1890, which is recognized as a government-sanctioned genocide by the Center for Holocaust Studies). Yeah, the US didn’t have any official laws on the books that said “wipe out the Sioux (and lots of other Indians), but somehow, that was never especially important.
I’m not sure if I am absolutely understanding the point – but I do not base my loathing of genocidal acts on whether they were a part of governmental policy. Most of the pogroms were incited, initiated, or carried out by the Tsarist police, whon were state agents and acting with the legitimacy of the state behind them and the Tsar himself generally pardoned anyone arrested for killing a Jew, but the government was apparantly smart enough not to write down “Kill the Jews.” I never argued anyone deserved a cookie – but I don’t think there’s anyone particularly deserving of one right now. But if one has a family history with genocide in it (as I think both of us do) I just do not get why having the hatred codified into law makes any real difference.
Like I said in the beginning, I have enjoyed this exchange a lot. I think this is a really, really hard conversation to have. Eventually, it’s impossible to really argue such things, I think, because eventually, an offensive equivalancy argument comes up somewhere, that’s really impossible to argue with, like A Jew is a Sioux is a Tutsi is an Armenian. And that’s where I don’t really engage.
But if you’d like to continue the conversation, please do! I just don’t want it to come down to splitting hairs.
@drahill: Eh, to me the difference is that while some governments sanction or condone genocide by looking the other way, or using the state police or the military, when they go out of their way to make it a stated priority the way the Third Reich did, it’s a public statement of intent that’s fairly rare, as is meticulously documenting the deaths as a way of determining how close they were getting to the goal of killing every last Jew in Europe.
But yes, you’re right, it’s splitting hairs to try to determine whether that kind of genocide is somehow more worthy of condemnation than others.
Anne’s comment about Currywurst reminded me – I don’t eat it myself, being veggie and all, but I hear from reliable sources that the best currywurst in Berlin can be found at the stand Curry 36 on Mehringdamm.
I have nothing to add to the discussion, but it has been very interesting to follow.
I merely wanted to recommend seeing the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church on Kurfürstendamm
I usually never comment since English is not even my second but my third language. This time I have to, though, because I find this post so utterly ridiculous. I come from a European country that was at the receiving end of violence during both World Wars. This obviously has had all sorts of effects on all sorts of things from political rhetoric to our relations with our neighbours. Never in my life, however, would I ever essentialize the people of those countries on the basis of what happened back then – that is, on the basis of what OTHER PEOPLE did.
Racism (at least when understood in the wider sense of the term that includes prejudices based on ideas on “culture”) exists all over Europe – just like in the US. Fear of an Anti-Semitic attack, however, sounds unintentionally comical. I’ve never met one single Anti-Semitist in my life and you’re more or less telling me this continent is swarming with them.
Given all this sterotyping, I find it hard to believe you have actually been to all “major Western European countries”. To be honest, you sound like a person who’s never left the US.
You may or may not love Germany but I believe travelling will, in any case, do you good.
And guys, just because your parents or grandparents originally came from somewhere else does not magically make you an “insider” or an expert capable of defining that country and it’s “culture”. Of course, nations and “cultures” are all artificial constructs anyway but pretending to know something about being German just because your granny originally came from Hamburg and fed you sauerkraut when you were a kid is a bit pathetic.
Oh Lordy. Maria, you should have read our FAQs on commenting before you posted this jackassery.
In summary, y’all, Maria sez:
Anti-Semitism doesn’t exist in Europe because I’ve never met anyone who’s anti-Semitic! MY world is the only world and therefore all of your experiences and the experiences of everyone else in this thread must be false.
Also, essentialism is wrong and “pathetic” except when I personally use it to derail and dismiss. Then it’s totes okay, and you should respect my essentialist views.
Take your haterade elsewhere, lady.
Becky, that rant made no sense whatsoever. Calm down. I didn’t say Anti-Semitism does not exists in Europe and you know that. Don’t try to distort my words. I merely stated that it’s a lot more marginal than you would like us to believe. My essentialism? You should have been a bit more specific there, hun. I can’t respond anything to that because I have no clue what you’re on about.
Maria, did you just tell Becky to calm down?
Even apart from the other offenses–none of which are about your opinion of anti-semitism, you’re entitled to that–the “hush up, woman! You’re being hysterical! I don’t have to give you any credence!” is pretty much a bannable offense. You can disagree with us. You can argue points of fact. But to accuse Becky of being some dumb, hyper-sensitive rube is indefensible.
Bye now.
Maria, your comment was rude, dismissive and insulting. Don’t tell Becky to calm down and don’t condescend to call her “hun.” Bye bye.
I have to chime in, a bit belatedly, that I have found quite a bit of anti-semitism throughout Europe. I have never in my life seen so many swastikas scrawled in metros, on public posters, and graffittied in the streets. On average, I see probably one a day. When I lived in the states, I honestly can’t recall ever seeing one except when discussing it in class. While I agree with other posters that at this point the current racist trend tends to be against immigrants- particularly Arab and African in my country- anti-semitism is alive and well.
Becky- I had your same doubts about traveling to Germany but for Italy. I saw a documentary about the rise of fascism in Europe and while France is high up there, Germany and Italy seem to be the worst offenders. Italy was worse than Germany currently, and has the much-adored Berlusconi as a super role model. He actually said that Mussolini isn’t that bad- he didn’t actually kill anyone!!! What a joke…
I was in Germany once as a kid, and it was pretty cool, but I don’t remember much specifically beyond that. I remember REALLY good food, though.
Are you familiar with the White Rose Society? They were university students in Munich who were executed for printing anti-Nazi leaflets. There’s a memorial at the University of Munich, if you’re going to be in the area.