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	<title>Comments on: Some Preliminary Thoughts on Wikileaks</title>
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	<description>As narrated by the most charming and vicious women on the internet</description>
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		<title>By: Sheena Singleton</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2010/12/15/some-preliminary-thoughts-on-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-49508</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheena Singleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Dec 2010 20:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=18022#comment-49508</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seeing how much rape apologism surrounds this case, and how it permeates society in general, has practically convinced me to take up a strict guilty-until-proven-innocent credo when it comes to rape cases. I hate that it makes me into a stereotype, and it troubles my conscience immensely, but I can&#039;t help it...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeing how much rape apologism surrounds this case, and how it permeates society in general, has practically convinced me to take up a strict guilty-until-proven-innocent credo when it comes to rape cases. I hate that it makes me into a stereotype, and it troubles my conscience immensely, but I can&#8217;t help it&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2010/12/15/some-preliminary-thoughts-on-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-44380</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 18:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=18022#comment-44380</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I’ve studied a lot about lynching, Jim Crow, and the practice of using the virtue of white women to justify racist aggression against black men. I feel pretty comfortable looking at those cases and first assuming the man DIDN’T do it, based on the pattern and reality of the time.&lt;/i&gt;

The rate of false reporting of being raped to police is a couple percent.  You can pretty safely guess that anyone who tells the police they were raped, was raped.  You&#039;ll be wrong a couple percent of the time, but unless you&#039;re personally involved, it&#039;s probably not worth worrying about.  The rate at which the wrong guy is accused in rapes by strangers is actually pretty high.  Pre-DNA testing, it was greater than 20%, where DNA testing was later used on the initial evidence.  It&#039;s not much of a surprise that police are often happy to throw some black guy with a low IQ in jail and call it a day.

But there&#039;s no ambiguity in identity here, so if these women allege what the Swedish government alleges they allege, you&#039;re pretty safe assuming it&#039;s true.  I don&#039;t trust the Swedish government in this case, and haven&#039;t seen any other source I&#039;d consider trustworthy get information directly from the women involved; that&#039;s the only sticking point that&#039;s reasonable.  At such time that one or the other (or both) make public statements, one really has to give up the ghost.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I’ve studied a lot about lynching, Jim Crow, and the practice of using the virtue of white women to justify racist aggression against black men. I feel pretty comfortable looking at those cases and first assuming the man DIDN’T do it, based on the pattern and reality of the time.</i></p>
<p>The rate of false reporting of being raped to police is a couple percent.  You can pretty safely guess that anyone who tells the police they were raped, was raped.  You&#8217;ll be wrong a couple percent of the time, but unless you&#8217;re personally involved, it&#8217;s probably not worth worrying about.  The rate at which the wrong guy is accused in rapes by strangers is actually pretty high.  Pre-DNA testing, it was greater than 20%, where DNA testing was later used on the initial evidence.  It&#8217;s not much of a surprise that police are often happy to throw some black guy with a low IQ in jail and call it a day.</p>
<p>But there&#8217;s no ambiguity in identity here, so if these women allege what the Swedish government alleges they allege, you&#8217;re pretty safe assuming it&#8217;s true.  I don&#8217;t trust the Swedish government in this case, and haven&#8217;t seen any other source I&#8217;d consider trustworthy get information directly from the women involved; that&#8217;s the only sticking point that&#8217;s reasonable.  At such time that one or the other (or both) make public statements, one really has to give up the ghost.</p>
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		<title>By: pandagon.net - it's the eye of the panda, it's the thrill of the bite</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2010/12/15/some-preliminary-thoughts-on-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-44371</link>
		<dc:creator>pandagon.net - it's the eye of the panda, it's the thrill of the bite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 17:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=18022#comment-44371</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Michelle Dean has a typically thoughtful and interesting post on the Wikileaks phenomenon and the annoyingly predictable response from people when someone they admire is accused of rape.&#160; (My favorite irony is how people who can manage to acknowledge someone is a creepy misogynist and does things they admire cannot make the leap into suggesting that someone could be a rapist and also do things they admire. Convenient!&#160; Once again, for the people who struggle with walking and chewing gum, I&#8217;m not accusing Assange of anything.&#160; I&#8217;m just objecting to the notion that the rape accusations are beyond credibility.) The rape stuff has been rehashed here, so I won&#8217;t get into it.&#160; But I do want to answer some questions she raises about Wikileaks itself.  There is a strong, if rather incoherent, sense on the left that Assange’s work is deeply important, and thus worth defending at all costs. And yet, at this juncture, the articulations of that value are rather unclear. Like everyone, of course, I’ve enjoyed the occasional bitchy statement that Cablegate has revealed from some State department lackey. (A personal favorite is the whiny memorandum about American stereotypes on Canadian television – we’re just glad you even care what we think of you, American brethren!) But so far, the information has been widely agreed to reveal no particular smoking gun, no admission that UFOs exist or 9/11 was planned or that Bush spent much of his time in office improving on prior MarioCart scores. And even when Wikileaks reveals something truly shocking, like the video of the murder of journalists in Iraq that it circulated some months ago, little seems to actually happen. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Michelle Dean has a typically thoughtful and interesting post on the Wikileaks phenomenon and the annoyingly predictable response from people when someone they admire is accused of rape.&nbsp; (My favorite irony is how people who can manage to acknowledge someone is a creepy misogynist and does things they admire cannot make the leap into suggesting that someone could be a rapist and also do things they admire. Convenient!&nbsp; Once again, for the people who struggle with walking and chewing gum, I&#8217;m not accusing Assange of anything.&nbsp; I&#8217;m just objecting to the notion that the rape accusations are beyond credibility.) The rape stuff has been rehashed here, so I won&#8217;t get into it.&nbsp; But I do want to answer some questions she raises about Wikileaks itself.  There is a strong, if rather incoherent, sense on the left that Assange’s work is deeply important, and thus worth defending at all costs. And yet, at this juncture, the articulations of that value are rather unclear. Like everyone, of course, I’ve enjoyed the occasional bitchy statement that Cablegate has revealed from some State department lackey. (A personal favorite is the whiny memorandum about American stereotypes on Canadian television – we’re just glad you even care what we think of you, American brethren!) But so far, the information has been widely agreed to reveal no particular smoking gun, no admission that UFOs exist or 9/11 was planned or that Bush spent much of his time in office improving on prior MarioCart scores. And even when Wikileaks reveals something truly shocking, like the video of the murder of journalists in Iraq that it circulated some months ago, little seems to actually happen. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Some Preliminary Thoughts on Wikileaks - The Pursuit of Harpyness -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2010/12/15/some-preliminary-thoughts-on-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-44369</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Some Preliminary Thoughts on Wikileaks - The Pursuit of Harpyness -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 17:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=18022#comment-44369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by michelledean, Vyckie D. Garrison. Vyckie D. Garrison said: @TPoHarpyness: Some Preliminary Thoughts on Wikileaks: One of the things stopping me from writi... http://bit.ly/gdPrRM #feminist #women [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by michelledean, Vyckie D. Garrison. Vyckie D. Garrison said: @TPoHarpyness: Some Preliminary Thoughts on Wikileaks: One of the things stopping me from writi&#8230; <a href="http://bit.ly/gdPrRM" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/gdPrRM</a> #feminist #women [...]</p>
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		<title>By: baraqiel</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2010/12/15/some-preliminary-thoughts-on-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-44337</link>
		<dc:creator>baraqiel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 16:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=18022#comment-44337</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@rodriguez - Absolutely.  I have seen people argue, in earnest, that what &quot;innocent until proven guilty&quot; means is that an accused has factually not committed any wrongdoing whatsoever until the court says so.  The inability to tell the difference between reality and the state&#039;s official version of events (upon which they base disciplinary actions) is mystifying to me when pointing out that difference is part of the mission of WikiLeaks itself.

(Oh, and amen about &quot;the public’s widespread misunderstanding of what “theory” and “proof” mean outside of science&quot;.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@rodriguez &#8211; Absolutely.  I have seen people argue, in earnest, that what &#8220;innocent until proven guilty&#8221; means is that an accused has factually not committed any wrongdoing whatsoever until the court says so.  The inability to tell the difference between reality and the state&#8217;s official version of events (upon which they base disciplinary actions) is mystifying to me when pointing out that difference is part of the mission of WikiLeaks itself.</p>
<p>(Oh, and amen about &#8220;the public’s widespread misunderstanding of what “theory” and “proof” mean outside of science&#8221;.)</p>
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		<title>By: rodriguez</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2010/12/15/some-preliminary-thoughts-on-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-44319</link>
		<dc:creator>rodriguez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 14:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=18022#comment-44319</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t the whole &quot;innocent until proven guilty&quot;  concept an idea for the court? It&#039;s my understanding that our society generally misapplies this concept outside of the court where it has a specific technical meaning. It&#039;s similar to the public&#039;s widespread misunderstanding of what &quot;theory&quot; and &quot;proof&quot; mean outside of science.

Which is a really long way of saying that if you think that rape victims as a class are more credible than those accused of rape as a class, you are not going against logic or stereotyping.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the whole &#8220;innocent until proven guilty&#8221;  concept an idea for the court? It&#8217;s my understanding that our society generally misapplies this concept outside of the court where it has a specific technical meaning. It&#8217;s similar to the public&#8217;s widespread misunderstanding of what &#8220;theory&#8221; and &#8220;proof&#8221; mean outside of science.</p>
<p>Which is a really long way of saying that if you think that rape victims as a class are more credible than those accused of rape as a class, you are not going against logic or stereotyping.</p>
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		<title>By: blackcherryorchid</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2010/12/15/some-preliminary-thoughts-on-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-44073</link>
		<dc:creator>blackcherryorchid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 06:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=18022#comment-44073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cat I am getting there as well. It&#039;s a really complicated feeling for me and until now I haven&#039;t even voiced it out loud. But just based on my experiences, my knowledge, and the patterns I have observed in these cases, I am definitely to the point where I lean towards &quot;he did it&quot;. It&#039;s even stronger if the man is powerful. 

I&#039;ve studied a lot about lynching, Jim Crow, and the practice of using the virtue of white women to justify racist aggression against black men. I feel pretty comfortable looking at those cases and first assuming the man DIDN&#039;T do it, based on the pattern and reality of the time. 

It is that same inclination based on systemic inequality (this time gender-based as opposed to race-based) that leads me to first believe the woman in these cases today. I just can&#039;t shake it and I&#039;m starting to wonder why I am obligated to do so. I guess I don&#039;t want to be a hypocrite, condemning most people for automatically believing the man and then I&#039;m going to automatically believe the woman.

Shoot, I&#039;m the only person I know who believes that the woman in the Duke rape case actually was sexually assaulted.

I don&#039;t see the specter of false rape allegations having any significant impact on the life of the average man today. I don&#039;t see that they are any more careful about the women they deal with, the parties they go to, the alcohol they drink. So if I&#039;m to be a &quot;man-hater&quot; because I think it takes a lot for a woman to come forward with such an accusation and I take her seriously, so be it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cat I am getting there as well. It&#8217;s a really complicated feeling for me and until now I haven&#8217;t even voiced it out loud. But just based on my experiences, my knowledge, and the patterns I have observed in these cases, I am definitely to the point where I lean towards &#8220;he did it&#8221;. It&#8217;s even stronger if the man is powerful. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve studied a lot about lynching, Jim Crow, and the practice of using the virtue of white women to justify racist aggression against black men. I feel pretty comfortable looking at those cases and first assuming the man DIDN&#8217;T do it, based on the pattern and reality of the time. </p>
<p>It is that same inclination based on systemic inequality (this time gender-based as opposed to race-based) that leads me to first believe the woman in these cases today. I just can&#8217;t shake it and I&#8217;m starting to wonder why I am obligated to do so. I guess I don&#8217;t want to be a hypocrite, condemning most people for automatically believing the man and then I&#8217;m going to automatically believe the woman.</p>
<p>Shoot, I&#8217;m the only person I know who believes that the woman in the Duke rape case actually was sexually assaulted.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see the specter of false rape allegations having any significant impact on the life of the average man today. I don&#8217;t see that they are any more careful about the women they deal with, the parties they go to, the alcohol they drink. So if I&#8217;m to be a &#8220;man-hater&#8221; because I think it takes a lot for a woman to come forward with such an accusation and I take her seriously, so be it.</p>
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		<title>By: BeckySharper</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2010/12/15/some-preliminary-thoughts-on-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-43975</link>
		<dc:creator>BeckySharper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 04:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=18022#comment-43975</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Cat: I&#039;m starting to feel the same way, and trying to figure out whether to embrace it or drag myself back to a more moderate position.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Cat: I&#8217;m starting to feel the same way, and trying to figure out whether to embrace it or drag myself back to a more moderate position.</p>
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		<title>By: baraqiel</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2010/12/15/some-preliminary-thoughts-on-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-43920</link>
		<dc:creator>baraqiel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 03:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=18022#comment-43920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had a whole long rant typed out, because I&#039;ve been talking about this case a lot with people, but instead I&#039;m just going to say how I find it immensely frustrating that people can&#039;t separate their moral estimations of WikiLeaks and Assange himself.  It&#039;s possible to think that WikiLeaks does good things and Assange himself is a jagoff.  It&#039;s also possible to think that WikiLeaks is detrimental to global society but that Assange&#039;s adherence to his principles makes him a hero.  It&#039;s the same sort of simple thinking that leads to people trying to apply American jurisprudence to a case that involves literally no Americans, or to argue it was ever SOP for a criminal justice system to accept &quot;over Skype&quot; as a means of interviewing a criminal suspect or to set bail for a man who gives a PO box in a different continent.  There&#039;s no common sense about anything connected with Assange, so far as I can see, and these women are bearing the brunt of it.

I have serious problems with the idea of &quot;innocent until proven guilty&quot; when directed at citizens outside the courtroom because I think it panders to exactly this sort of simplistic thinking.  It seems that people simply cannot reserve judgment in the face of ignorance -- if we must assume &quot;innocent until guilty&quot; then it follows as a fact, apparently, that these women are purposefully and maliciously lying.  If people could, as a default, assume that all parties are accurately and in good faith reporting their subjective experience and that the court, full of trained professionals in exactly this (not that they&#039;re infallible, but at least they&#039;re knowledgeable), will determine what action the state should take, if any -- maybe then it wouldn&#039;t be so bad.  But as things are, it&#039;s a joke.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a whole long rant typed out, because I&#8217;ve been talking about this case a lot with people, but instead I&#8217;m just going to say how I find it immensely frustrating that people can&#8217;t separate their moral estimations of WikiLeaks and Assange himself.  It&#8217;s possible to think that WikiLeaks does good things and Assange himself is a jagoff.  It&#8217;s also possible to think that WikiLeaks is detrimental to global society but that Assange&#8217;s adherence to his principles makes him a hero.  It&#8217;s the same sort of simple thinking that leads to people trying to apply American jurisprudence to a case that involves literally no Americans, or to argue it was ever SOP for a criminal justice system to accept &#8220;over Skype&#8221; as a means of interviewing a criminal suspect or to set bail for a man who gives a PO box in a different continent.  There&#8217;s no common sense about anything connected with Assange, so far as I can see, and these women are bearing the brunt of it.</p>
<p>I have serious problems with the idea of &#8220;innocent until proven guilty&#8221; when directed at citizens outside the courtroom because I think it panders to exactly this sort of simplistic thinking.  It seems that people simply cannot reserve judgment in the face of ignorance &#8212; if we must assume &#8220;innocent until guilty&#8221; then it follows as a fact, apparently, that these women are purposefully and maliciously lying.  If people could, as a default, assume that all parties are accurately and in good faith reporting their subjective experience and that the court, full of trained professionals in exactly this (not that they&#8217;re infallible, but at least they&#8217;re knowledgeable), will determine what action the state should take, if any &#8212; maybe then it wouldn&#8217;t be so bad.  But as things are, it&#8217;s a joke.</p>
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		<title>By: Cat</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2010/12/15/some-preliminary-thoughts-on-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-43882</link>
		<dc:creator>Cat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 02:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=18022#comment-43882</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seeing how much rape apologism surrounds this case, and how it permeates society in general, has practically convinced me to take up a strict guilty-until-proven-innocent credo when it comes to rape cases. I hate that it makes me into a stereotype, and it troubles my conscience immensely, but I can&#039;t help it...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeing how much rape apologism surrounds this case, and how it permeates society in general, has practically convinced me to take up a strict guilty-until-proven-innocent credo when it comes to rape cases. I hate that it makes me into a stereotype, and it troubles my conscience immensely, but I can&#8217;t help it&#8230;</p>
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