Ever run into those people who insist that they’re Scottish/Irish/Whatever….but it’s more of an ancestry thing than them really being of that culture? Well, that’s not me. I am 100% part of a very forgotten culture. I’m Acadian. J’suise Acadienne. My parents are also Acadian, as were their parents before them, their parents before them as well, etc etc. Granted, there was a Scottish dude involved in the late 1700′s, but I am a full blooded Acadian girl hailing from Tracadie-Sheila, NB. Notable last names in my family include LeBreton, Arseneau, Comeau, Saulnier, and my last name doesn’t sound Acadian, but totally is. I am an Acadian before I am a Canadian and will always identify as such. I don’t want my culture to be any more forgotten than it already is. I was even born on the feast day of Acadians, a week late from my mother’s due date, that is how hardcore I am. For a history of why we’re so paranoid about being lost into the history texts, please see Wikipedia.
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We’re in a competition with Newfoundland as to who the friendliest people in Canada are. We were uncreative with our flag because we were too busy partying and having a good time. We’re pretty damn Catholic, but please don’t hold it against us. We live in one of the most beautiful places on earth and enjoy the best food. We love tourists too, not only are they the bread and butter of our little nation, but we want everyone to see this place. It’s awesome! We are also French….which is where the problems start kicking in when you start travelling West.
……because Quèbec. Ruined. EVERYTHING.
Since the Plains of Abraham, the French contingency of Quèbec has had a sore spot for Canada and its Anglophones. Quèbec has been trying to separate for a while because of their hurt feelings from 1775 and have treated the rest of the country like shit on their shoe. They hate immigrants. They have a minister for secularism in a veiled attempt to not look racist. While Montreal can be friendlier, I don’t recommend travelling the rest of “La Belle Provence (not)” unless you plan on not speaking a single word. I’ve caught service people making fun of me in French thinking that I totes didn’t know the language. Hell, they hate other French speaking populations. France? Fuck ‘em. Cajuns? Can’t understand them. Franco-Manitoban? Not real French. They even came up with a very special racial slur for Acadians. Homard. Translates to lobster. We’re dirty garbage collecting creatures. If I didn’t know any better, I’d think that the Quèbecois eat puppies for breakfast and wash it down with kitty blood, they can just get that mean. There is a gross culture of protectionism that makes the Southern red state US look good.
So, imagine having that collective attitude in your people and in your government. You make national news on a weekly basis with how shitty you are. That is a very, VERY basic run down of why English Canada hates Quèbec. Doesn’t matter how hard Alberta sucks, because at least they speak English and that is how we get caught in the crossfire. You speak some French or mention that you’re first language is French, and almost without fail I would get “go back to Quèbec, you Frenchy!”. Some people say it like it’s a joke, but you’d be surprised how many people are dead serious. Nevermind the fact that some of the Prairie provinces aren’t as friendly that they’d have you believe, now I gotta deal with “go back to where you came from”. I explain that I’m not from Quèbec, they say “doesn’t matter, you’re French.”
Atlantic Canada worries about separation, because we’re not sure if the States will try to swallow us whole or if we’ll make like Alaska and just hang. Maybe we’ll make our own country and call it “CoolestPlaceOnEarthia”. Those of us Atlantic Canadians who are also Acadian have the added grief of just being labeled as an obnoxious Frenchy. I, reclaiming the slur handed to me by the REAL problem, am an homard…not a goddamn Frenchy.
In all seriousness, it’s more than just name calling. We are a people who have worked VERY hard to keep out identity and basically keep ourselves alive. It is frustrating to see how many fellow Canadians are so poorly educated about the cultures in their country. We don’t matter. We’re French, you see, so we must be the same people….and it’s all because Quèbec can’t get over themselves and give ALL French Canadians a bad name. Some people who are really into politics will say that the issue is much more complex than that…and they’d be right if they were just talking about English Canada vs. French Canada. To us Acadians, it’s pretty simple. They’re assholes and making the rest of us look bad. They are the 4 year old brat that we have to babysit and apologize for, and since we’re the babysitter, we get all the nasty looks and heads shaking in our direction.
So to English Canada and the rest of the world, I am a French speaking Acadian. We don’t mind you guys at all, what we do mind is when you treat us like shit because some ornery guys in another province make us all look like douches. Please skip over Quèbec and come see us (though visiting the Gaspé Peninsula is a real treat…those Quèbecers are more Acadian-like anyway). We’ll treat you right.
To my dear Quèbecois Separatist Jerk Contingency….mangez la merde et obtenez plus de vous-mêmes. If we can get over the British attempting to kill our culture, then being moved to make room for Loyalists and STILL find the time to smile and treat others with respect, you can too.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Vyckie D. Garrison, Pursuit of Harpyness. Pursuit of Harpyness said: Thanks, Quèbec: How They Make An Acadian’s Life Harder http://bit.ly/dTlI14 [...]
Marie Anelle, thank you for this post! I would like to ask some further questions:
1) How likely is it that Quebec would actually separate?
2) Why do the Quebecois dislike the French?
2a) How do Acadians feel about the French and the rest of le monde francophone?
3) What about people of English/English-speaking descent who are geographically from Quebec? How does that work?
4) Do Acadians in Atlantic Canada primarily live in the same communities, go to French-language schools, etc. or are the populations more intermixed?
5) How much power does the central Canadian government have to reign in Quebec’s bad behavior?
Reading this post has made me realize how shamefully little I know about the inner workings of Canada! And also how absurd it’d be to meet someone with a Southern accent and yell at them to get back below the Mason-Dixon line without even waiting to hear what they think about anything.
And, you have certainly made the Acadian areas of New Brunswick sound like a lovely place to visit!
I recently found out that my grandfather was half Acadian (his mother was a Poirier from Miscouche), and became intrigued with finding out about this little community up north. But most of the info on line about the Acadians is about the past, and not so much about how they live today. So thanks so much for putting a modern face on a little bit of my past. Hopefully we’ll get up to the maritimes soon (we’re in Boston)–my grandmother (not the one married to the grandfather above) was from Cape Breton, so we have lots of geneological exploring to do up there!
Why would the U.S. swallow you guys? Do you have a bunch of tar sands we’re not aware of?
Thanks for this post! I’m an anglo transplant in Quebec (here for school), and the layers of language politics here are staggering. I didn’t realize there such hostility towards Acadians from Quebecois — I’d've (naively) thought that a common language (albeit with different dialects) would avoid that.
I can’t speak to all of your questions, Baraquiel, but here’s my take on the ones I can:
1) I don’t think it’ll happen any time soon. This province is a mess, and while it’s a drum that politicians like to beat every now and again, it isn’t in a position to separate.
3) It’s complicated, to say the least, and there’s a lot of hostility on both sides. The distribution of anglophones is not at all homogenous — we tend to clump together in certain neighbourhoods here, and it’s pretty easy to get by with just English in those places. There is a strong anglophone community in Montreal, but beyond that, I don’t know.
5) Right now, none. I’m not sure how much you know about Canadian politics, so forgive me if I’m over-explaining! We’ve got a minority government, and it’s pretty likely (knock on wood) that there’ll be an election called within a month or two. It’s unlikely that either the NDP or Liberals will support the upcoming budget, so to stay in power, the Conservatives will have to appease the Bloq Quebecois (a regional party representing Quebec). The Bloq actually have a lot of power in a minority government situation, since they swing left or right, depending on what they deem right for Quebec.
Isn’t this supposed to be a feminist blog ?
As a Quebecer, I must say I am really disgusted by your post. This is just the reiteration of the traditional Québec-bashing discourse portraying Québec as a monolithic, racist and childish society…
Should I remind you that the debate about Québec’s sovereignty is one done within a democratic spirit ? That in the last referendum, in 1995,, the sovereigntist option lost by only 0.5%, with no violence at all from the side of sovereigntists. Is that what you call a childish attitude ?
Should I remind you that Québec is maybe the only province in Canada where an MP is representing an explicitely feminist political party ? By the way, this MP is a man, originating from Iran, and also an activist for Québec’s independance (a “Separatist Jerk”, as you say).
One last thing : In French, Québec is spelled with a « é » and not with « è » : QUÉBEC.
Please inform yourself a little more about Québec culture before spreading xenophobic shit on a public (feminist) blog.
Cheers,
StephC
I’ve loved the blog from the beginning and can always count on it for interesting and thoughtful discussions. So I was shocked to wake up to this post this morning. As a Québécoise (a member of the “Quèbecois Separatist Jerk Contingency” according to you, Marie Anelle), I’m used to hearing hateful speech about Québec. See Wikipedia for “Anti-Quebec sentiment”. But it is quite shocking to read such a post on a feminist blog. I’m taking time to comment on this post, but I’m not sure that discussions can be fruitful with a person who writes such an offensive and hateful post. Because that’s what it is: Hate. Xenophobia. Do I have to say that Québec, as a province, doesn’t hate other French speaking populations? Or any populations for that matter? That it doesn’t hate immigrants? Hell, I’m 32 years old, and I’ve never heard Acadians being called anything other than Acadians. I’m sure that there are quite a few assholes in Québec, as there are in every other country on earth, but to qualify a whole province this way is offensive. I’ve never read posts containing hateful speech about any other country, population, etc. on this feminist blog, or other feminist blogs. They would be unacceptable, as this one is. I wish that you would apologize and educate herself.
P.S. By the way, it’s spelled Québec.
[...] we’re discussing international matters and intra-national strife today, I thought rounding up a few links on the political activity going on in Tunisia would be a [...]
Thanks for yet another excellent post, Marie Anelle! As an American of French-Canadian ancestry, I am embarassed to admit how little I knew about things, but now it makes more sense why I witnessed lots of bilingual conversations going on when I visted Moncton and got the whole language-shaming experience in Montreal. (Either Americans with very Quebecois-sounding names get an extra dose of language shaming when they speak French badly, or it’s like that for everyone – I’m not sure.)
Normally I’m a big fan of this blog (Maire Anelle’s posts included), but I have to say that I really did not enjoy reading this post. The Québeçois and Québéçoise are not universally hated by Anglo-Canadians, nor is it a bad idea to travel to places in Québec other than Montreal. I (an Anglo, who can speak French) spent a year living and working in the very French Chicoutimi, and I never experienced any of the travel horrors the poster describes. The people I encountered were very warm and welcoming.
Is this post a joke? It is basicially a bigotted tirade about French speaking Quebeccers, which ironically goes on to lament “It is frustrating to see how many fellow Canadians are so poorly educated about the cultures in their country.” Hmmm …
Seriously? It sounds like the poster may be in need of some study of our Canadian cultures, including the history of Québec, which includes quite a bit of oppression of French speakers by their Anglo-overlords. Québec (not spelled Quèbec) has its share of problems, like any other Canadian province. Posts like this one do nothing to bridge the cultural divide between French and Anglo Canadians.
Harpies, I am disapointed.
Oops, Marie Annelle, I apologize for spelling your name wrong. I am an appalling editor
As someone who is used to hearing hateful speech from Anglo-Canada AND have had it directed at me by other French Canadians, this is a pretty common sentiment that I had to grow up with. I have been “othered” beyond recognition. You can’t deny that the way the Quebec government is going about treating immigration is completely wrong and degrading to other cultures. Judging by some of the comments, you can’t deny the language shaming that happens.
Hell, if you watched season 1 of Star Academie, you would have heard Wilfred constantly referred to as “homard”, so yeah, it really does happen.
If all you got out of it was a sense of xenophobia and are treating this like one big joke, then that’s what you got out of it.
I’ll apologize for the absolutely gross spelling error on my part. I won’t apologize for my personal feelings and experiences, because then it would just one of those “sorry you felt that way” faux-pologies that everyone hates so much.
@Chairman Moog
No worries, I am not a great editor myself and I’m although I’m sensitive, I’m not so sensitive as to freak out over my name being spelled wrong.
I appreciate your thoughts nonetheless.
@baraqiel
1) How likely is it that Quebec would actually separate?
Not likely.
2) Why do the Quebecois dislike the French?
I don’t think there is a universal reason, but one guy in Trois-Rivières told me that it’s because Quebec French is the one true Canadian French…so I guess it depends who you ask.
2a) How do Acadians feel about the French and the rest of le monde francophone?
We love it.
3) What about people of English/English-speaking descent who are geographically from Quebec? How does that work?
It ranges depending on where you are located. I’ve had some people never want to leave and I’ve heard many, many, many, many stories (and experienced some) where you just get treated awful.
4) Do Acadians in Atlantic Canada primarily live in the same communities, go to French-language schools, etc. or are the populations more intermixed?
It’s a pretty concentrated population, the map shows in red where they are.
5) How much power does the central Canadian government have to reign in Quebec’s bad behavior?
That’s a tough one to say, because provincial and federal politics are two different animals. There IS a sentiment especially in Western Canada that the government tries everything it can to appease Québec. Our PM recently acknowledge Québec as essentially its own nation and it pissed off the Westerners immensely.
But like I pointed out in the post, it’s easy to “other” Quebec because the culture is different…which is what the disappointed people missed nicely. Alberta is awful in a LOT of regards, but they seem to be ignored because they have beef and tar sands.
To those readers who are offended by this post:
I will let Marie Anelle speak for herself here—she’s more than capable of responding to criticism.
Personally, I do not believe this post is xenophobic. Xenophobia is hatred of foreigners, usually otherizing of the minority by the majority. Acadians are an ethnic minority with a history of political, social and cultural marginalization by both Anglophone and other Francophone Canadians. Nothing in this post fits the definition of a member of a dominant culture hating on foreigners. It is a post by member of a minority culture expressing her anger and writing about her own experience and observations.
I will also say that comments along the lines of: “‘I am a member of the dominant culture and I have never heard anyone use a racist/bigoted term against that minority or witnessed bigotry toward them and therefore what you’re saying about bigotry is not true!” is simply ridiculous. I hear variations on that all the time by non-Jews looking to explain to me how anti-Semitism doesn’t really exist. I call bullshit on it.
I have to type this comment on my iPhone because I am in transit so forgive brevity and typos.
I haven’t been writing here a lot of late but I wanted to say, as the other Canadian blogger, and something of a Quebecoise ( god, my relationship with that word) I think the situation is more complicated than how Marie Anelle has portrayed it here, though also I think she is not all wrong. But for those of you who are connecting the mission of the blog with clear support of Quebec nationalism, well, I do not understand the connecting there and think you need to explain a bit more.
Marie Anelle, I really don’t understand how you can defend this post. I never asked you to apologize for your feelings and experiences, which I don’t deny at all. There are cultural divides in Canada, again I don’t deny that. Québec’s immigration politics are certainly up for debate. What I find unacceptable is a hateful, offensive and racist post that, like Chairman Moog said, does nothing to bridge Canadian cultural divides, and in fact, only make them grow larger. It even makes time to hate on Alberta, Prairie provinces and Southern US states.
I think it pretty ironic that, on a feminist blog, people are being called “too sensitive” when correcting the name of their home province. For me, it’s basic respect. But apparently, respect is too much to ask for in this post. I guess it just goes to show that even feminists can be blind to their own hate and racism.
This is not what I expect from a feminist blog.
Ummm….wow gen….I was calling MYSELF too sensitive. ME. Not anyone else, ME.
While I concede that their are Anglos that spew hate speech about their follow French-speaking Canadians (you only need to read the appalling comments at the end of any CBC news story to see this for yourself).
I don’t feel that way. And I don’t appreciate being lumped into the amorphous Anglo-Canada that, in your article yells, “go back to Quèbec, you Frenchy!” at anyone daring to utter Bonjour.
French-English relations in Canada are much more complex than that. I also don’t think it is fair to describle an entire province as a group of unwelcoming, whiny biggots. I bet some French speaking people from Québec would fit into that category … as would individuals from any other Canadian province or territory … don’t get me started on Albertans [JOKES].
I think don’t really creating an “us” and “them” type dialogue is particularly helpful.
This article came across as hateful to me, and I wasn’t expecting to read something like it on the Pursuit of Harpyness (my fav blog). I’m not trying to minimise your experience as an Acadian Canadian, but how exactly did Québec ruin everything?
@Chairman Moog
That’s a very fair point, and I very much wrote this out of anger and frustration. I would love to physically meet an English speaking Canadian that doesn’t make a snide remark or a French joke. I think I’d bake them a cake.
In speaking with Franco Manitobans as well, something as big as French vs. English isn’t just us vs. them anymore, it’s us vs. anyone who MAY be them but let’s just throw them in just in case until they apologize for themselves, but let’s mock them anyway.
I thought I made it clear that I was attacking the government policies on protectionism. I apologize if that wasn’t the case….and please, get started on Albertans (ALSO JOKE).
If you’re not trying to minimize my experience, then please understand that this has been a lifelong thing of “I’m not from Quebec” along with “who cares, you’re French”. I grew up with these attitudes around me. I grew up with people straight up telling me that I am less. I have had to ditch friends because I couldn’t take their jokes anymore. Hell yeah it caused resentment towards Québec.
I was planning on going from province to province, including my own, and pointing out the parts that do suck. So maybe we can hold off on the “racist” comments at least.
Thank you for responding BeckySharper. I wrote you about this post because my comment was in moderation while others applauding it were being accepted.
Like others have said, Anglo-French-Acadian-immigrant-etc relations in Canada are very complex, as are relations between diverse groups in various other countries. To say that my comments here are just a case of “dominant-group denying its bigotry towards minority-group” is too simple, since this post is full of the French Québec bashing (French Québec also being a minority group in Canada) that usually comes from English Canada and English Québec (THE dominant/majority group in Canada). So this post’s hateful and racist speech is part of the dominant/majority group’s speech.
Marie Anelle, I’m also not minimizing your experiences as an Acadian, or trying to silence you. But I object to the hate and racism of this post, and think it has no place on this feminist blog, or others.
@Gen: I wrote you about this post because my comment was in moderation while others applauding it were being accepted. That’s because this is your first comment on the site and you had to be approved as a commenter, whereas the other commenters you say were “applauding” have commented on this site before. All new commenters have to be approved by a moderator.
I understand that Anglo-French-Acadian relations are complex, and I understand why you dislike this post, and you’re welcome to comment respectfully about that and engage in a debate. To that end, calling Marie Anelle a racist, hater and xenophobe probably doesn’t do much to explore the complexity you think she’s missed in the original post.
@BeckySharper: Now I know about the whole moderation thing! Thank you!
@gen
I’M also the one who gave you approval, so think of that next time you debate whether or not discussion is “fruitful” with someone.
If you’re not trying to silence my experiences, then don’t use silencing and derailing tactics.
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/ would be helpful to you.
@StephC – I obviously don’t know enough about the situation to which you’re referring to comment in detail, but regarding this specifically: “That in the last referendum, in 1995,, the sovereigntist option lost by only 0.5%, with no violence at all from the side of sovereigntists. Is that what you call a childish attitude ?” I’m sorry, but you (collectively) don’t get a cookie for not setting cars on fire when a vote doesn’t go your way. “No violence” is the bare minimum, it isn’t in itself an achievement.
To the commenters in general that disagree with Marie Anelle: While I think that referring to language such as “some aren’t as friendly as they’d have you believe” as “hate speech” is perhaps something of an exaggeration, it is becoming quite clear to this total outsider how complex the situation is. As such, I personally would be very interested to hear your perspectives on some of the issues covered by Marie Anelle, such as the idea of Quebec seceding, the relationship between Quebec and the Acadian population, and the relationship between Quebec and le monde francophone.
@Becky – quite!
@Maire Anelle
Thank you for sharing your experiences. After reading what you wrote, I think I can understand your resentment. The kind of taunting and general assholery that you experienced is well just really shitty.
PS – I <3 cake.
First, I have zero connection to any of the places/cultures discussed and am a typical uninformed American in that respect (I want to learn more, we fantasize about a months-long Atlantic to Pacific Canadian road trip. Any day now…) I’m having similar thoughts to BeckySharper’s point at 3:11.
As I read this discussion I thought of so many other instances of a member of some minority group saying “Majority Group does this, and it is A Problem for me.” And how true that statement is for that particular minority group member, because that is her/his experience, and how much resistance they get from Majority Group. “Not all men/white people/people of X religion/etc. are that way! Don’t paint us with such a broad brush!” Working on an individual level, changing one mind at a time, isn’t really going to bring the sort of social change that the minority group needs and deserves. So they/we paint with a broad brush and expect the “good ones” to work within their Majority Group to create change. But is it ever fair to use that broad brush? I absolutely understand that it hurts to be called an oppressor and lumped in with people whose views are different than your own. But how do we get anything done if we don’t use the broad brush sometimes? Is our message diluted by always adding “some” in front of the group we are criticizing? But are we alienating people by speaking in broad terms? I’ve gotta say, the revolution’s doesn’t seem to be getting here quickly, so something isn’t working.
I don’t intend to trivialize the discussion here by comparing the topic to other types of power relations, so I hope I haven’t offended. Thank you for this learning opportunity!
@Chairman Moog
Thank YOU for your patience and understanding. Sometimes it takes me a few tries to spit my words out properly. You will never know how much I appreciated the civility in which you engaged me with. I do make a killer hazelnut torte!
Calling a post on its hate and racism is derailing?
When a whole post talks about my own minority culture this way: “have treated the rest of the country like shit on their shoe”, “they hate immigrants”, “a veiled attempt to not look racist”, “I’d think that the Quèbecois eat puppies for breakfast and wash it down with kitty blood, they can just get that mean”, “you make national news on a weekly basis with how shitty you are”, “assholes”, “brat”, “jerk”, telling me to “mangez la merde et obtenez plus de vous-mêmes”, all before we even start talking, no I don’t feel like discussion can achieve anything. And no, I don’t feel like talking about “the idea of Quebec seceding, the relationship between Quebec and the Acadian population, and the relationship between Quebec and le monde francophone”.
This is just the same hate and racism I’ve heard all my life, and learned to live with. And I am tired of it too. For all of you who don’t see the hate and racism of this post, educate yourself. I won’t educate you.
Marie Anelle,
The Battle of the Plains of Abraham was held in 1759, not 1775. And it is really a simplistic view to say that all of the sovereigntist movement is based on this single event.
How can we trust your analysis of Québec immigration policy being “completely wrong” when you cannot even spell correctly the name of a province in your own country, nor correctly situate the historical events you are yourself refering to ? Your post is simply disinformative.
Furthermore, I maintain that this blog post is xenophobic and should be withdrawn. Xenophobia is defined by Wikipedia as “hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture”. There is nothing in this definition that relates to the fact of being or not a member of a dominated/dominating group. Individuals from minority groups can also be xenophobic, especially towards other minory groups, as I think is the case in this post (which uses english, the dominating group language, except to say “mangez la merde”, which litteraly translates to “eat shit”, an direct insult).
You have the right to describe your own experiences of anger. What I think is wrong though, both methodologicaly and morally, is to pretend to understand a cultural group, based only on your own experiences and some false facts.
So I ask you to apologize for this post.
StephC
Marie Anelle, you wrote “I thought I made it clear that I was attacking the government policies on protectionism.”
Sorry, um… I didn’t get that at all from the post. I’m American and really not familiar with Canadian politics, so maybe someone who knew more about them would see that in what you wrote. The gist of what I seemed to read was: “Acadians are mostly forgotten and really cool. Quebecois are jerks. The rest of Canada thinks anyone who speaks French must be from Quebec and are jerks to them.” Obviously that’s a very simplistic summary, but really, I didn’t see anything about politics in the post–just attitudes. (I apologize for not using the accented characters–can’t figure out how to do that on this computer.)
I respect your experiences and opinions, but it would surprise me greatly to find that *all* Quebecois are jerks and *all* English-speaking Canadians are jerks to French-speaking Canadians. You also said that you were writing in frustrated response to personal experiences (or something along those lines, forgive me if I seem to be putting words in your mouth) but I didn’t see anything about personal experiences in this post–just generalizations.
I’d love to read more about Acadian culture, as well as Canadian politics and the protectionism/immigration issues you mention briefly.
@StephC
I apologize for the inaccurate spelling and for mixing up Plains of Abraham with The Battle of Québec. I should have done some better fact checking. THAT I will apologize for.
I already said I’m not going to apologize for the post in its entirety, because it wouldn’t be genuine. It would be like me asking for an apology for being called a racist.
@Clare
I described some of the experiences within the post.
@Steph: Furthermore, I maintain that this blog post is xenophobic and should be withdrawn.
It is a truth universally accepted that sometimes we all read things on the internet that piss us off. We absolutely welcome debate on this site, but the author is under no obligation to withdraw her post when you demand it simply because her strong opinions and language offend you. If we pulled every post that rubbed someone the wrong way, ideologically or personally, nearly every post that has ever been published on this site would have to be deleted, except perhaps for some of the about pets and pie.
Wow. Okay. Well, this whole conversation is demonstrating the problem so blatantly that even this dumb Southern US-ian (JOKE) understands the magnitude of it.
Calling a post on its hate and racism is derailing?
When a post describes my own minority culture this way: “have treated the rest of the country like shit on their shoe”, “They hate immigrants”, “a veiled attempt to not look racist”, ““La Belle Provence (not)””, “I’d think that the Quèbecois eat puppies for breakfast and wash it down with kitty blood, they can just get that mean”, “You make national news on a weekly basis with how shitty you are”, “assholes”, “brat”, “jerk”, saying Québécois-es to “mangez la merde et obtenez plus de vous-mêmes” (eat shit), no I do not think that discussion can achieve anything. And no, I don’t feel like talking about “the idea of Quebec seceding, the relationship between Quebec and the Acadian population, and the relationship between Quebec and le monde francophone”.
This is just the same hate and racism I’ve heard all my life, and learned to deal with. And I’m tired of it too. For all of you who don’t see the hate and racism in this post, please educate yourself on Canadian history. I won’t educate you.
Marie Anelle
First, I didn’t ask you to apologize for the false fact or mispelling, but only for having published a xenophobic post.
Second, I personnally didn’t use the word « racist » to describe you or your post. And I can neither judge on your overall personnality.
But I maintain that this post, through its false facts and oversimplicification, propagate xenophobia towards Quebec peoplem, and I ask you again to apologize for this.
i’m an acadian who moved to québec when i was 15. i’m now 27 and living in montreal. i can understand marie anelle’s frustration (especially the part about having your identity erased because lots of people equate speaking french in canada to québec).
i found this post to be filled with generalizations, putting every quebecer (and anglo-canadian) in the same boat. all the insults weren’t necesary. especially not when you want to set up a dialog.
to quickly answer baraquiel’s questions:
1) How likely is it that Quebec would actually separate?
the support for separation has always been around 40%, even in its strongest years (and it’s still at this level now). the parti québécois (one of 2 provincial separatist parties) doesn’t mention it much these past years, because people want to vote for them, but they don’t necessarily want to vote for separation. it doesn’t make much sense to me. anyway.
not all quebecers are separatists. and i find, politicaly, we may have 3-5 major parties (the liberals, parti québécois, adq, greens & québec solidaire), but none of them feels like a good option. my 2 cents.
(and i wish i could include stats for my stats, but i’m about to go out. i’ll get back to it later if you want me to.)
2) Why do the Quebecois dislike the French?
2a) How do Acadians feel about the French and the rest of le monde francophone?
from what i heard & read, the québécois hate the French (mainly France), because they feel France abandonned them in the fight against the english for canada/québec territory. it’s like France is the cool big brother who doesn’t really want to hang out with the little brother Québec. that’s how i see it & how i hear many people talk about it.
many/some (not all) quebecers also have a HUGE inferiority complex, whether in comparison to the french, the anglos, you name it.
3) What about people of English/English-speaking descent who are geographically from Quebec? How does that work?
there are anglo populations living in montreal, near montreal, and in the cantons de l’est/estrie (in southern québec). like someone said up thread, some can live their whole lives in english in their own communities. it can be a sore spot for some frenchie quebecers, and it does bother me some times. i mean, you live surrounded by french people, the least you could do is learn a bit of french, right? same thing for frenchies going to live in a mostly anglo milieu, learn the language of the place. even though learning a new language isn,t for everyone and can be hard to do. (hell, even stephen harper, our current prime minister, used to not speak a word of french. he learned it to help him become prime minister. and it worked. and he used to be a member of a political party which was a lot more conservative & against frenchie-canadians. that says a lot.)
4) Do Acadians in Atlantic Canada primarily live in the same communities, go to French-language schools, etc. or are the populations more intermixed?
i come from pointe-verte, near bathurst, in north-east new-brunswick. in my experience, you could have a small franco city right next to a small anglo city, and so on. there seemed to be a lot of language-based hatred between some of the kids of neighboring cities (anglos hating the frenchies and vice versa). i’d say it depends a lot on the attitude of the people & the cities where you are. there were lots of kids at my french high-school in bathurst who had 1 anglo and 1 frenchie parent, and they spoke both languages at home. things felt more separated when i lived there, but that was like 13 years ago, so things may have changed, and again, it depends in which city you find yourself.
5) How much power does the central Canadian government have to reign in Quebec’s bad behavior?
i don’t really like the wording of this question (reign in québec, like a naughty animal?). but anyway. i still somewhat agree with it. i find québec to be very whiny, sometimes rightly so, sometimes not. and because of the threat of separation, the government of canada has some leverage, but if they piss québec too much, it’ll reawaken the dormant fury of a bunch of people who might then join the separatists’s ranks.
and like many others have said, the language question in canada, and who is the dominant group, etc, is very complex. anglo-canadians dominate frenchie-québec, who dominate anglos in québec, and who also cause frenchies not in québec to be erased. and so on. people often forget that there are francophones living in ontario, manitoba, nouveau-brunswick, nova-scotia, and that there are anglos living in québec.
and now i really must leave, but i’ll check back in later tonight.
@BeckySharper
You said : ” If we pulled every post that rubbed someone the wrong way, ideologically or personally, nearly every post that has ever been published on this site would have to be deleted”
I am sorry but calling a whole ethnic group « assholes » has nothing to do with « rubbing someone the wrong way, ideologically or personally ». It is neither personal nor ideological, it is simply ethnophobic. I’d think that you would recognize this.
@katrinaholloway
It is ridiculous to say that the Québécois hate the French. There is long established relationship between France and Québec including a General Delegation in France (a quasi-ambassy of Quebec), diplomatic agreements on student, youth and scientific exchanges and recognition of diplomas, as well as considerate immigration from French citizens in Québec. How can you qualify this as hate ?
Another thing : It is not Québec which causes “frenchies” not in Québec to be erased. What historically caused the francophones outside Quebec to be so weak is the historical policy of active assimilation pursued by the British colonial powers. See Deportation of Acadians for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians.
Let’s avoid revisionism and over-generalisation, please.
@ stephC:
i should’ve nuanced my answer more. SOME quebecers dislike the French, either for the reasons mentionned above or other reasons i don’t understand/know. and i didn’t think of all the ties we have with france (since i was rushing out), so thanx for pointing them out.
and re: your second point, i rethought about that during the evening, and it’s true that it’s not quebecers who cause frenchies outside québec to be erased.
(and being acadian myself, i am aware of the acadian deportation, thanx.)
another point i wanted to add but forgot to earlier, about why the maritimes would fear being “adopted/annexed” to the USA. if québec were to separate, it would create a huge division between the maritimes and the rest of canada. since new-brunswick shares a border with maine/the USA, it might be easier for them to have political, economical, etc, ties with a country closer to them geographicaly. i think it would be hard to do, and hard to do smoothly. but i suppose it could happen.
@katrinaholloway
For the deportation, sorry, this information was not directed to you personnally, but to our public
.
You said “if québec were to separate, it would create a huge division between the maritimes and the rest of canada”.
I agree with you that this is a real issue, which I think is already adressed within certain intellectual and political circles. But the fact is that quebecers have voted twice against “seperation”. And even referendum questions were not that much about “seperation” than about “soveignty-association” that is, a model with very similar the one of the European community, with an aim at opening the borders.
But again, this is a complex discussion, and we cannot address it while someone is calling an whole ethnic group “asshole”.
What does a minister for secularism do? Maybe we need one of those here.
@Michelle
To respond to your comment. So far, I don’t think anybody here had try “connecting the mission of the blog with clear support of Quebec nationalism”.
On the other hand, I don’t understand why hate speech against an whole ethnic group is connected to the mission of this blog.
I am very very surprised and sad that neither Marie Anelle nor any other editors of this blog have so far made a clear statement recognising that calling an whole ethnic group “assholes” or “immigrant hater” is hate language and should therefore be considered innaceptable in this blog.
How should we feel welcome, and trusted to participate in this blog, when hate speech is left unaccountable ?
Those who use the term “hate speech” (or “hate language”), what do you mean by this term? And what does it apply to?
As I understand the term “hate speech”, there also needs to be the inciting violence, and/or prejudicial action.
I don’t believe that what MA has written does that. She has put out in the public domain her experiences of Francophone and Anglophone Canada, as an Acadian. MA is not inciting violence or prejudicial activity against either.
Further, given that there is a debate about the issues contained in MA’s post, I do believe that welcoming and trust are endeared, especially in the first instance your comments are visible. It seems the debate is around the how people have perceived MA’s experiences, as she has expressed them in this post.
What is hate speech ?
From Wikipedia, hate speech is « outside the law, any communication which disparages a person or a group on the basis of some characteristic. Hate speech is, outside the law, any communication which disparages a person or a group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual orientation ».
So from this definition, « hate speech » doesn’t need to be the inciting violence, and/or prejudicial action.
But if we want to go by the Law (do we really want to go that far ?), here is what Wikipedia says about the Canadian criminal Law:
« In Canada, advocating genocide or inciting hatred[10] against any ‘identifiable group’ is an indictable offence under the Criminal Code of Canada with maximum prison terms of two to fourteen years. An ‘identifiable group’ is defined as ‘any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.’ It makes exceptions for cases of statements of truth, and subjects of public debate and religious doctrine. The landmark judicial decision on the constitutionality of this law was R. v. Keegstra (1990) »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech#Canada
Personnaly, I think considering an whole ‘section of the public distinguished by ethnic origin’ to be « assholes », « immigrant haters », and « shitty people »; doing this on a publicly accessible website, as Marie Anelle did, qualify as an offence under the criminal code of Canada.
So, as far as I am concerned, as a member of the ‘Quebec’ group and as reader of this blog, the debate for me is not about Marie Anelle experience, but more pragmatically about recognising the fact that this post contains hateful speech towards Quebec people and making Marie Anelle and the blog editors accountable for this.
And I currently live this experience not as a debate, but as a struggle. At least, I would ask you to recognize my own experience.
@mischiefmanager
About “Minister of Secularism”
I have made some research to know what exactly Marie Anelle was referring to when using this term, and I must say that I don’t know what she is talking about (and I am not sure neither that she, herself, knows what she is talking about). You can see for yourself at the list of Ministries, in the Quebec government webpage :
http://www.gouv.qc.ca/portail/quebec/pgs/commun/gouv/minorg/?lang=en
(the french translation of secularism is “laïcité “)
However, a few years ago, there was big governemental commission that concluded that the government should adopt a policy of “open securalism” and “interculturalism”. You can read a press release about this report here :
http://www.accommodements.qc.ca/communiques/2008-05-22a-en.html
I can’t know tell you exactly how this report has been dealt by the current Quebec government (maybe you should ask to Marie Anelle), but one thing is sure, is that these proposals were and still are highly debated in Quebec francophone public space.
That’s it. I am still waiting Marie Anelle apologie for threating my whole community as “assholes” and “shitty people” and “immigrant haters”.
@StephC
If you actually read my other post, you will see that I apologized for crossing the line.
At this point, I question that you “really want to understand” and said that you’re done with this debate. I was giving you credit for at least wanting to delve deeper instead of being like another commenter who basically did the EXACT thing I was bitching against (though being told that I wasn’t Acadian enough for her was new), now I’m not so sure.
As for your understanding of derailing…If you read the sections in Derailing for Dummies, you will find that some commenters describe quite a few of the headings….especially “You’re Being Hostile”, “But That Happens to Me Too!”, “I Don’t Think You’re As Marginalized As You Claim” and “Aren’t You Treating Each Other Worse Anyway”. You can also note that the site is sarcastic and it’s clear that it’s about a commenter.
I fully expect that you will jump to the defence of everyone who feels the way you do now. But I have a feeling that you wouldn’t stand up for Oilnecks, Inbreds, pot-smoking hippies, spudheads, every name a Newfoundlander has ever been called, homards (or my personal favorite…inbreds of the East), or square heads because it doesn’t hurt you enough to be constituted as “hate speech”.
@StephC – then I think we disagree about what constitutes hate speech/language. Because it would seem that the very definition of hate speech identified by you would also render the aims of this blog moot – eg posts written about patriarchy/kyriachy.
@StephC – as you pointed out earlier, as a member of minority it’s not necessarily up to you to educate those who are not a member of that minority group. It is also not up to MA to do that on behalf of Quebec peoples either, especially as a member of a minority.
It seems that in MA talking about her experiences about being Acadian, that those from Quebec are making it about them when that wasn’t the purpose of MA’s post.
@Marie Anelle,
that’s the thing : you did not apologize. You said you COULD apologize (“I can apologize to high heaven on the inappropriate things I said”) but the fact is : you did not actually apologized.
And as far as I can see, you still can’t recognise what was exactly inappropriate in your statements, seeing the difference between referecing, without any context, to a third party experience where quebec superstar was called “homard” supposedly because of its acadian origin; and your own personnal responsability in writing statements threating an whole ethnic group as “assholes” and “shitty people”. You cannot even make the difference between beeing called “homard” and beeing “asshole”. You didn’t call us “frogs”, you called us “assholes”.
About that I should defend other injustice. Well, I will say that you don’t have any idea who I am, what is my life and what my social engagement. Indeed, this is MY group you are directly attacking here, my own experience and my own identity that you are pragmatically denying, not in an abstract sense, but pragmatically, in this post, specifically.
But I guess distinctions and nuances are not your thing.
The only thing I am asking you is to explicitely apologize for your hatred statements towards my community.
@Mackey
This is the same thing here. It is one thing to criticize patriachy and men domination, but it would be another thing to call men, as a whole, as beeing essentially “assholes” and “shitty people”. While the first perspective is essential to liberation and justice, the later statement is an hate speech (in Butler’s sense), because this statement, in itself, is an act of injustice.
Marie Anelle has the right to account of her own experience of beeing dominated by some quebecers, or even, quebec as whole. Nobody denied this.
What is not acceptable, and is indeed hate speech, is to call a whole group “assholes” or “shitty people” only because of their ethnic origins.
Just to make another distinction.
I don’t think that your calling quebec soveigntist as “jerks” is innacceptable. It is a stupid statement and it closes dialogue, but I don’t see it as innaceptable. Soveigntist, individuals, made the choice to involved politically in this movement, and they are responsible of their own choices.
It is calling people “assholes” or “shitty people” only because of where or how they were born, that is innacceptable.