<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Booknotes: A Return to Modesty</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/</link>
	<description>As narrated by the most charming and vicious women on the internet</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 17 May 2013 21:22:08 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: elissa</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-76029</link>
		<dc:creator>elissa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2011 02:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=20380#comment-76029</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just picked up Shalit&#039;s book, and I was glad to come across a review that made respectful criticisms of the book from a feminist perspective. Helpful to hear you put into words the frustrations with Shalit I was feeling.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just picked up Shalit&#8217;s book, and I was glad to come across a review that made respectful criticisms of the book from a feminist perspective. Helpful to hear you put into words the frustrations with Shalit I was feeling.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: annajcook</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-69627</link>
		<dc:creator>annajcook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=20380#comment-69627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@jess, I&#039;m glad you liked the review! If you have reading suggestions, I&#039;m always open to adding them to the list. 

Stop back in next week for a review of &lt;i&gt;Unhitched&lt;/i&gt; by Judith Stacey :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jess, I&#8217;m glad you liked the review! If you have reading suggestions, I&#8217;m always open to adding them to the list. </p>
<p>Stop back in next week for a review of <i>Unhitched</i> by Judith Stacey <img src='http://www.harpyness.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jess</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-69547</link>
		<dc:creator>jess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 04:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=20380#comment-69547</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anna, this is fantastic. One of my favorite aspects of your writing is your ability to sympathize with the &quot;other side&quot; and listen not only to what they&#039;re saying but what they really mean while still wholeheartedly and eloquently disagreeing. I would have enjoyed reading the mocking or dismissive types of reviews you said you initially considered, but I like this a lot more because it investigates not only the problems with Shalit&#039;s book but also the underlying mindset- what is Shalit really concerned with and what other approaches could she have taken? 
The excerpt that you mentioned about kissing in public is very telling- that excerpt seems to encapsulate the narrowness of Shalit&#039;s analysis. If she&#039;d thought more broadly it should have been clear to her that kissing in public isn&#039;t universally accepted - that only specific types of people can &quot;get away with it&quot;, namely, straight couples with fairly conventional appearances (and possibly some race and age requirements too). &amp; that should have signaled to her that our culture isn&#039;t simply free-wheeling and exhibitionistic about sex, but rather that it promotes a very specific kind of sex. 
Anyway, I loved this review. More please!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anna, this is fantastic. One of my favorite aspects of your writing is your ability to sympathize with the &#8220;other side&#8221; and listen not only to what they&#8217;re saying but what they really mean while still wholeheartedly and eloquently disagreeing. I would have enjoyed reading the mocking or dismissive types of reviews you said you initially considered, but I like this a lot more because it investigates not only the problems with Shalit&#8217;s book but also the underlying mindset- what is Shalit really concerned with and what other approaches could she have taken?<br />
The excerpt that you mentioned about kissing in public is very telling- that excerpt seems to encapsulate the narrowness of Shalit&#8217;s analysis. If she&#8217;d thought more broadly it should have been clear to her that kissing in public isn&#8217;t universally accepted &#8211; that only specific types of people can &#8220;get away with it&#8221;, namely, straight couples with fairly conventional appearances (and possibly some race and age requirements too). &amp; that should have signaled to her that our culture isn&#8217;t simply free-wheeling and exhibitionistic about sex, but rather that it promotes a very specific kind of sex.<br />
Anyway, I loved this review. More please!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: BeckySharper</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-69395</link>
		<dc:creator>BeckySharper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2011 15:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=20380#comment-69395</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@sophiefair &amp; Cimorene: Agreed. Learning about the human body and human reproduction is basic biology, and should not be stigmatized as inappropriate, dangerous or immoral (which is the reason students are allowed to opt out).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@sophiefair &amp; Cimorene: Agreed. Learning about the human body and human reproduction is basic biology, and should not be stigmatized as inappropriate, dangerous or immoral (which is the reason students are allowed to opt out).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cimorene</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-69394</link>
		<dc:creator>Cimorene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2011 14:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=20380#comment-69394</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think that anyone should be able to opt out of sex ed, and I don&#039;t think that parents should be allowed to opt their kids out of sex ed.

Sexual education isn&#039;t sex, and sex education isn&#039;t anti-modesty. It&#039;s education. How can you claim to know that you&#039;re against sex ed when you haven&#039;t participated in it? Opting out just prohibits knowledge. And I don&#039;t think that parents should be able to pull their kids out of 10th grade Bio on the days the teacher is talking about evolution, either. Some shit needs to get learned.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think that anyone should be able to opt out of sex ed, and I don&#8217;t think that parents should be allowed to opt their kids out of sex ed.</p>
<p>Sexual education isn&#8217;t sex, and sex education isn&#8217;t anti-modesty. It&#8217;s education. How can you claim to know that you&#8217;re against sex ed when you haven&#8217;t participated in it? Opting out just prohibits knowledge. And I don&#8217;t think that parents should be able to pull their kids out of 10th grade Bio on the days the teacher is talking about evolution, either. Some shit needs to get learned.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: sophiefair</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-69381</link>
		<dc:creator>sophiefair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=20380#comment-69381</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anna, I&#039;m not sure that I can agree with putting off mandatory sex ed until college. A lot of sex ed here (I&#039;m in Canada) at early ages is centered on safety and sexual abuse prevention, which is vital. Further, a fair number of people don&#039;t ever go to college. A fair bit of the sexual health curriculum that my teenage daughters follow deals with healthy relationships, which I think is important for young men and young women. For a young woman raised in a conservative home, it may be the only place where she learns that she has ownership of her own body.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anna, I&#8217;m not sure that I can agree with putting off mandatory sex ed until college. A lot of sex ed here (I&#8217;m in Canada) at early ages is centered on safety and sexual abuse prevention, which is vital. Further, a fair number of people don&#8217;t ever go to college. A fair bit of the sexual health curriculum that my teenage daughters follow deals with healthy relationships, which I think is important for young men and young women. For a young woman raised in a conservative home, it may be the only place where she learns that she has ownership of her own body.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mischiefmanager</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-69378</link>
		<dc:creator>mischiefmanager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 20:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=20380#comment-69378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why am I not surprised to hear that she&#039;s a ba&#039;al teshuvah?  Drink that kosher Kool-Aid, girl.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why am I not surprised to hear that she&#8217;s a ba&#8217;al teshuvah?  Drink that kosher Kool-Aid, girl.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: PhDork</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-69372</link>
		<dc:creator>PhDork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=20380#comment-69372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I reserve my right to laugh any dumbass playing the gender essentialism card out of class.

You give Shalit far more credit than I could extend her, anna.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I reserve my right to laugh any dumbass playing the gender essentialism card out of class.</p>
<p>You give Shalit far more credit than I could extend her, anna.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: BeckySharper</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-69370</link>
		<dc:creator>BeckySharper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 14:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=20380#comment-69370</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I said to Anna in a separate discussion that I do think the fact Shalit wrote it when she was in her early 20s is part of why she&#039;s so &quot;I&#039;ve figured it out! Everyone has to live MY way!&quot; No one is more convinced of their own rightness than a privileged, 20something white kid straight out of college. 

As bluebears pointed out, the one saving grace of this book, IMO, is that it&#039;s a protest against the hypersexualized, choose-my-choice strain of third-wave feminism on college campuses. I&#039;m totally down with that. Of course, not all campus culture is like what Shalit experienced at her extremely liberal elite New England private university---I went to a conservative Southern public university whose campus culture was entirely different (and fairly typical of many universities, especially in the South). That radicalized me in the opposite direction from Shalit. I was positively longing for some sex-positive feminism by the time I got out of there, even the stupid, SATC-watching kind. It was another way that Shalit took her own experience and unsuccessfully tried to make it one-size-fits-all.

Baraqiel is also correct in noting the creepiness of the Orthodox Jewish approach to modesty, which is based in patriarchy, not in women&#039;s bodily autonomy. Although it&#039;s not discussed overtly in this book, Shalit is a ba&#039;al teshuva, a Jew raised non-Orthodox who returned to Orthodoxy (sort of the Jewish equivalent of a born-again Christian, and often just as annoying). She very deliberately chose to live within the strictures of Orthodox practice, which is inherently non-egalitarian and somewhat obsessive about women&#039;s modesty. It may be that Orthodoxy seemed like a good fit to her because she already was on the modesty bandwagon, but whenever I read her work, I&#039;m always reminded that it&#039;s underpinned by very conservative religious views on women&#039;s roles.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I said to Anna in a separate discussion that I do think the fact Shalit wrote it when she was in her early 20s is part of why she&#8217;s so &#8220;I&#8217;ve figured it out! Everyone has to live MY way!&#8221; No one is more convinced of their own rightness than a privileged, 20something white kid straight out of college. </p>
<p>As bluebears pointed out, the one saving grace of this book, IMO, is that it&#8217;s a protest against the hypersexualized, choose-my-choice strain of third-wave feminism on college campuses. I&#8217;m totally down with that. Of course, not all campus culture is like what Shalit experienced at her extremely liberal elite New England private university&#8212;I went to a conservative Southern public university whose campus culture was entirely different (and fairly typical of many universities, especially in the South). That radicalized me in the opposite direction from Shalit. I was positively longing for some sex-positive feminism by the time I got out of there, even the stupid, SATC-watching kind. It was another way that Shalit took her own experience and unsuccessfully tried to make it one-size-fits-all.</p>
<p>Baraqiel is also correct in noting the creepiness of the Orthodox Jewish approach to modesty, which is based in patriarchy, not in women&#8217;s bodily autonomy. Although it&#8217;s not discussed overtly in this book, Shalit is a ba&#8217;al teshuva, a Jew raised non-Orthodox who returned to Orthodoxy (sort of the Jewish equivalent of a born-again Christian, and often just as annoying). She very deliberately chose to live within the strictures of Orthodox practice, which is inherently non-egalitarian and somewhat obsessive about women&#8217;s modesty. It may be that Orthodoxy seemed like a good fit to her because she already was on the modesty bandwagon, but whenever I read her work, I&#8217;m always reminded that it&#8217;s underpinned by very conservative religious views on women&#8217;s roles.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mischiefmanager</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/07/07/booknotes-a-return-to-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-69369</link>
		<dc:creator>mischiefmanager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 13:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=20380#comment-69369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jewish feminists have been wrestling with the concept of &lt;i&gt;tzniut&lt;/i&gt; (modesty) for some time now. The generally accepted feminist take is that women should cover their bodies to the extent that &lt;i&gt;we&lt;/i&gt; choose to, based on what feels right and comfortable and safe for us.  The problem with the Orthodox concept is that it&#039;s based on the rabbinically endorsed understanding that   men are unable to control themselves.  There has never been a serious discussion in Orthodoxy about the idea of male responsibility in this regard.  The burden is always and continually on women to protect men from themselves, and we all know how well that works.  

As for sex ed, the discomfort kids feel is a result of the poisonous atmosphere surrounding sexuality in this country.  Our bodies should not be cause for shame or embarrassment.  And to my mind, it is irresponsible as a parent not to see that your kids are well-educated about their bodies by the time they go out into the world (and preferably a lot earlier than that).  We don&#039;t give our kids a chance to opt out of biology class because they don&#039;t want to do dissection.  We expect that they&#039;ll take driver ed if they want to get a driver&#039;s license.  

I agree that parents should give information based on the child&#039;s expressed interest and intellectual level, but if you have a kid who&#039;s entering adolescence and hasn&#039;t asked at least a couple of questions, you as the parent should raise the matter.  Kids have to know that it&#039;s safe to ask their parents about sex and that their parents want them to make safe, informed choices.  They should get the message that sexuality is a healthy, enjoyable part of life for many, if not most, adults.  If sex ed classes made Shalit feel embarrassed, something went grossly wrong with her upbringing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jewish feminists have been wrestling with the concept of <i>tzniut</i> (modesty) for some time now. The generally accepted feminist take is that women should cover their bodies to the extent that <i>we</i> choose to, based on what feels right and comfortable and safe for us.  The problem with the Orthodox concept is that it&#8217;s based on the rabbinically endorsed understanding that   men are unable to control themselves.  There has never been a serious discussion in Orthodoxy about the idea of male responsibility in this regard.  The burden is always and continually on women to protect men from themselves, and we all know how well that works.  </p>
<p>As for sex ed, the discomfort kids feel is a result of the poisonous atmosphere surrounding sexuality in this country.  Our bodies should not be cause for shame or embarrassment.  And to my mind, it is irresponsible as a parent not to see that your kids are well-educated about their bodies by the time they go out into the world (and preferably a lot earlier than that).  We don&#8217;t give our kids a chance to opt out of biology class because they don&#8217;t want to do dissection.  We expect that they&#8217;ll take driver ed if they want to get a driver&#8217;s license.  </p>
<p>I agree that parents should give information based on the child&#8217;s expressed interest and intellectual level, but if you have a kid who&#8217;s entering adolescence and hasn&#8217;t asked at least a couple of questions, you as the parent should raise the matter.  Kids have to know that it&#8217;s safe to ask their parents about sex and that their parents want them to make safe, informed choices.  They should get the message that sexuality is a healthy, enjoyable part of life for many, if not most, adults.  If sex ed classes made Shalit feel embarrassed, something went grossly wrong with her upbringing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
