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	<title>Comments on: Let Us Now Praise Less-Famous Men</title>
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		<title>By: baraqiel</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/07/let-us-now-praise-less-famous-men/comment-page-1/#comment-74882</link>
		<dc:creator>baraqiel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=21324#comment-74882</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@rodriguez - I feel like you&#039;re responding partially to some things I haven&#039;t said (or have explicitly said the opposite of).  For example, I asserted that Jobs has done anything &quot;fundamental for the purposes of communication&quot; (in fact, I said above that &quot;I don’t think that Jobs really did anything to help cell phone penetration or mass communications&quot;).  But I do think it&#039;s a little...unrealistic to classify his influence in the development of Apple technology as simply business decisions.  I&#039;ve never worked there, but there are certainly numerous reports of the kind of hands-on role he took in the design process of all of their major products.  Everyone I&#039;ve ever heard describe their time at Apple is very clear that Jobs was personally directing the development of their big releases.  Product design is certainly part of technological development when you&#039;re talking about consumer technology.  And it&#039;s just false to say that Jobs wasn&#039;t an &quot;ideas&quot; person -- that he didn&#039;t himself come up with ideas for where the technology should go, as opposed to just choosing to promote some.  It&#039;s true that he didn&#039;t code OSX or prototype out the iPhone himself.  But if major contributions were his ideas, I&#039;m not sure how you can imply that he doesn&#039;t deserve credit as a technological innovator.  Under your definition, the assembly line isn&#039;t a technological development, either, because Ford didn&#039;t invent the conveyor belt, he just figured out a good way to use it.

I fully understand that we all use C on a daily basis in a real technical sense, in the exact same way that everyone who drives a car uses an internal combustion engine on a daily basis.  And if we lived in a more intellectual society, perhaps dmr would be better known than Jobs and Carnot would be better known than Ford.  But we live in a consumer society, so the people who can interface with the consumer market are more famous.  The question of who anyone would like to hear about is one that is totally separate from the question of determining who in actual fact accomplished important things.  Jobs accomplished important things, even if you don&#039;t think they&#039;re interesting or worth the time to talk about.  But you can say that instead of saying that he didn&#039;t actually do anything that merits credit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@rodriguez &#8211; I feel like you&#8217;re responding partially to some things I haven&#8217;t said (or have explicitly said the opposite of).  For example, I asserted that Jobs has done anything &#8220;fundamental for the purposes of communication&#8221; (in fact, I said above that &#8220;I don’t think that Jobs really did anything to help cell phone penetration or mass communications&#8221;).  But I do think it&#8217;s a little&#8230;unrealistic to classify his influence in the development of Apple technology as simply business decisions.  I&#8217;ve never worked there, but there are certainly numerous reports of the kind of hands-on role he took in the design process of all of their major products.  Everyone I&#8217;ve ever heard describe their time at Apple is very clear that Jobs was personally directing the development of their big releases.  Product design is certainly part of technological development when you&#8217;re talking about consumer technology.  And it&#8217;s just false to say that Jobs wasn&#8217;t an &#8220;ideas&#8221; person &#8212; that he didn&#8217;t himself come up with ideas for where the technology should go, as opposed to just choosing to promote some.  It&#8217;s true that he didn&#8217;t code OSX or prototype out the iPhone himself.  But if major contributions were his ideas, I&#8217;m not sure how you can imply that he doesn&#8217;t deserve credit as a technological innovator.  Under your definition, the assembly line isn&#8217;t a technological development, either, because Ford didn&#8217;t invent the conveyor belt, he just figured out a good way to use it.</p>
<p>I fully understand that we all use C on a daily basis in a real technical sense, in the exact same way that everyone who drives a car uses an internal combustion engine on a daily basis.  And if we lived in a more intellectual society, perhaps dmr would be better known than Jobs and Carnot would be better known than Ford.  But we live in a consumer society, so the people who can interface with the consumer market are more famous.  The question of who anyone would like to hear about is one that is totally separate from the question of determining who in actual fact accomplished important things.  Jobs accomplished important things, even if you don&#8217;t think they&#8217;re interesting or worth the time to talk about.  But you can say that instead of saying that he didn&#8217;t actually do anything that merits credit.</p>
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		<title>By: rodriguez</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/07/let-us-now-praise-less-famous-men/comment-page-1/#comment-74846</link>
		<dc:creator>rodriguez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2011 02:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=21324#comment-74846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@baraqiel: is this my longest post here? And what a huge derail this is. Sorry.

you: &lt;i&gt; a major influence on the development of personal electronics&lt;/i&gt; OK. I didn&#039;t say no. I did say: There are Jobsian marketing strategies, and Jobsian employee management techniques. 

So fine, what about the technologies then? 

Well, there &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; Jobsian technologies (VD&#039;s phrase) depending on when and how they become &lt;i&gt;his&lt;/i&gt;. Are they his because he promoted them as a powerful CEO? That&#039;s one definition, but that&#039;s not how I would assign &quot;ownership&quot;. Even still, I&#039;ll go with that definition for sake of argument. 

Which technologies are his then? Here&#039;s my list, please add what you think I have forgotten: GUI, tablet gestures, the Apple Store, a closed shop for development, and the iTunes store.* 

Some of these are great, truly, but I don&#039;t see these as fundamental  for purposes of communication. For example, cell phone technology, or the technology that underlies the internet is far more fundamental. I especially don&#039;t see Jobs&#039;s work as fundamental to the things that VD is mentioning. And I do think it fits with the spirit if not the intention of the post.

And why mention Dennis Ritchie? The death of the two of them so close in time, with one death discussed non-stop and the other non, seems like such a perfect illustration of &quot;less famous men&quot;. 

It may not seem to you that users interact with C (and Unix), ever, and don&#039;t come into contact with dmr&#039;s work. But in fact they do, every day, because C and Unix underlie pretty much everything OS related that we do. It&#039;s the combustion engine we are using, and the assembly line, right now.

I see Jobs&#039;s contributions as business decisions. I&#039;m sure that&#039;s great in context but it&#039;s just not interesting to me. I don&#039;t want to denigrate, just contextualize. For me, in the really long run, business decisions are not as important as tech decisions. For me, Jobs didn&#039;t invent the combustion engine or even the assembly line. 

I&#039;d rather hear about the more hard core tech stuff (and I&#039;d rather hear about the civil rights stuff). This post is about priorities, those are mine.

I see Steven Jobs as the prototype of the famous man that obscures others. And not just famous but famous in a really specific US-American way. Because he&#039;s so good at what we truly value here, more than anything else, ever, at all. And that&#039;s business success. 

The business of America is business, right? Well, I want to say publicly, that I wish it weren&#039;t. I wish it were tech, or science, or civil rights.

* and some more boring blablabla from me that maybe you know already

Graphical user interfaces is work that came from Xerox Parc, which Jobs brought to market in the 80&#039;s. So you don&#039;t need to read stuff, you can just look at icons. The gestures thing, such as two finger pinches and drags and what not mean that a user can interact with a screen more directly, (and maybe not have to read words or even look too much at the icons). All this work done elsewhere, by other companies. Jobs was smart enough to spot it. Once spotted, especially in the case of the gestures, he had a big enough engine behind him to bring the ideas to market. The tech part is not &lt;i&gt;his&lt;/i&gt; work, but rather the work he promoted. That progression, text to icon to gestures: great idea. Bring these things to market: great idea. Give credit to Jobs? sorta, for business decisions.

I would argue that the iTunes/Apple store is one of his most useful ideas, but I would also classify it as a business idea, not really a tech idea. 

Here&#039;s my story about this: Am I, jane doe rodriguez, addicted to sharing music? Yes. Do I want musicians to benefit from their labor? Yes. Great, make it cheap and easy for me to buy lots of music. Let my conscience be easy, and let the artist get exposure to a far larger customer bases than ever before. 

The closed shop thing meant that Apple could practice very strict quality control over what appears on Apple machines. In doing so, some of the wilder problems and glitches of using Windows machines are smoothed over. But some development gets cut off too. It&#039;s a trade off. Windows went one way, with predictable results. It makes sense for Apple to go the other way, if they were (once) competing with Windows. Even still, this seems more like a business decision to me, and not really a tech idea.

You could say I have now defined away the arguments by redefining what is tech and what is not. So be it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@baraqiel: is this my longest post here? And what a huge derail this is. Sorry.</p>
<p>you: <i> a major influence on the development of personal electronics</i> OK. I didn&#8217;t say no. I did say: There are Jobsian marketing strategies, and Jobsian employee management techniques. </p>
<p>So fine, what about the technologies then? </p>
<p>Well, there <i>are</i> Jobsian technologies (VD&#8217;s phrase) depending on when and how they become <i>his</i>. Are they his because he promoted them as a powerful CEO? That&#8217;s one definition, but that&#8217;s not how I would assign &#8220;ownership&#8221;. Even still, I&#8217;ll go with that definition for sake of argument. </p>
<p>Which technologies are his then? Here&#8217;s my list, please add what you think I have forgotten: GUI, tablet gestures, the Apple Store, a closed shop for development, and the iTunes store.* </p>
<p>Some of these are great, truly, but I don&#8217;t see these as fundamental  for purposes of communication. For example, cell phone technology, or the technology that underlies the internet is far more fundamental. I especially don&#8217;t see Jobs&#8217;s work as fundamental to the things that VD is mentioning. And I do think it fits with the spirit if not the intention of the post.</p>
<p>And why mention Dennis Ritchie? The death of the two of them so close in time, with one death discussed non-stop and the other non, seems like such a perfect illustration of &#8220;less famous men&#8221;. </p>
<p>It may not seem to you that users interact with C (and Unix), ever, and don&#8217;t come into contact with dmr&#8217;s work. But in fact they do, every day, because C and Unix underlie pretty much everything OS related that we do. It&#8217;s the combustion engine we are using, and the assembly line, right now.</p>
<p>I see Jobs&#8217;s contributions as business decisions. I&#8217;m sure that&#8217;s great in context but it&#8217;s just not interesting to me. I don&#8217;t want to denigrate, just contextualize. For me, in the really long run, business decisions are not as important as tech decisions. For me, Jobs didn&#8217;t invent the combustion engine or even the assembly line. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d rather hear about the more hard core tech stuff (and I&#8217;d rather hear about the civil rights stuff). This post is about priorities, those are mine.</p>
<p>I see Steven Jobs as the prototype of the famous man that obscures others. And not just famous but famous in a really specific US-American way. Because he&#8217;s so good at what we truly value here, more than anything else, ever, at all. And that&#8217;s business success. </p>
<p>The business of America is business, right? Well, I want to say publicly, that I wish it weren&#8217;t. I wish it were tech, or science, or civil rights.</p>
<p>* and some more boring blablabla from me that maybe you know already</p>
<p>Graphical user interfaces is work that came from Xerox Parc, which Jobs brought to market in the 80&#8242;s. So you don&#8217;t need to read stuff, you can just look at icons. The gestures thing, such as two finger pinches and drags and what not mean that a user can interact with a screen more directly, (and maybe not have to read words or even look too much at the icons). All this work done elsewhere, by other companies. Jobs was smart enough to spot it. Once spotted, especially in the case of the gestures, he had a big enough engine behind him to bring the ideas to market. The tech part is not <i>his</i> work, but rather the work he promoted. That progression, text to icon to gestures: great idea. Bring these things to market: great idea. Give credit to Jobs? sorta, for business decisions.</p>
<p>I would argue that the iTunes/Apple store is one of his most useful ideas, but I would also classify it as a business idea, not really a tech idea. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s my story about this: Am I, jane doe rodriguez, addicted to sharing music? Yes. Do I want musicians to benefit from their labor? Yes. Great, make it cheap and easy for me to buy lots of music. Let my conscience be easy, and let the artist get exposure to a far larger customer bases than ever before. </p>
<p>The closed shop thing meant that Apple could practice very strict quality control over what appears on Apple machines. In doing so, some of the wilder problems and glitches of using Windows machines are smoothed over. But some development gets cut off too. It&#8217;s a trade off. Windows went one way, with predictable results. It makes sense for Apple to go the other way, if they were (once) competing with Windows. Even still, this seems more like a business decision to me, and not really a tech idea.</p>
<p>You could say I have now defined away the arguments by redefining what is tech and what is not. So be it.</p>
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		<title>By: baraqiel</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/07/let-us-now-praise-less-famous-men/comment-page-1/#comment-74816</link>
		<dc:creator>baraqiel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=21324#comment-74816</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@rodriguez - I don&#039;t want to harp on, but I&#039;m honestly really perplexed by your seeming insistence that Steve Jobs didn&#039;t have a major influence on the development of personal electronics.  Saying that doesn&#039;t take away from the fact that other people did as well, or that other people had other accomplishments that are at least as important if not more so, and I think it&#039;s possible to recognize the man&#039;s impact without deifying him.  So I&#039;m not sure why you are objecting to recognizing his impact.  Steve Jobs is more famous than dmr outside of tech circles partially because of showmanship, I&#039;m sure, but mainly because non-techies interact with iPods on a daily basis and they don&#039;t interact with C basically ever.  I feel that this is like objecting to recognizing Henry Ford&#039;s accomplishments in making the car accessible to people by saying that he didn&#039;t invent the internal combustion engine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@rodriguez &#8211; I don&#8217;t want to harp on, but I&#8217;m honestly really perplexed by your seeming insistence that Steve Jobs didn&#8217;t have a major influence on the development of personal electronics.  Saying that doesn&#8217;t take away from the fact that other people did as well, or that other people had other accomplishments that are at least as important if not more so, and I think it&#8217;s possible to recognize the man&#8217;s impact without deifying him.  So I&#8217;m not sure why you are objecting to recognizing his impact.  Steve Jobs is more famous than dmr outside of tech circles partially because of showmanship, I&#8217;m sure, but mainly because non-techies interact with iPods on a daily basis and they don&#8217;t interact with C basically ever.  I feel that this is like objecting to recognizing Henry Ford&#8217;s accomplishments in making the car accessible to people by saying that he didn&#8217;t invent the internal combustion engine.</p>
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		<title>By: rodriguez</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/07/let-us-now-praise-less-famous-men/comment-page-1/#comment-74815</link>
		<dc:creator>rodriguez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=21324#comment-74815</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[k. I&#039;ll send you a link.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>k. I&#8217;ll send you a link.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: BeckySharper</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/07/let-us-now-praise-less-famous-men/comment-page-1/#comment-74812</link>
		<dc:creator>BeckySharper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=21324#comment-74812</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@rodriguez: Would you like to do a guest post with your thoughts?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@rodriguez: Would you like to do a guest post with your thoughts?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: rodriguez</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/07/let-us-now-praise-less-famous-men/comment-page-1/#comment-74811</link>
		<dc:creator>rodriguez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=21324#comment-74811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So Dennis Ritchie has died.

http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/13/father-of-c-and-unix-dennis-ritchie-passes-away-at-age-70/

The kind of influence that we &lt;i&gt;think&lt;/i&gt; Steve Jobs had, Dennis Ritchie &lt;i&gt;truly&lt;/i&gt; did have. But he is unknown outside of tech circles. Hmmmm. Showmanship much, Steve? 

...

I&#039;d love to have a thread one time where we talk about expanding modes of communication and the good and bad they represent. I say bad because of course communication is a tool, to be used in all kinds of ways. Like maybe a FFT on whether or not the internet is a vector of freedom.

(And I can hear you asking &quot;That&#039;s what you think is a fun thread?&quot;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Dennis Ritchie has died.</p>
<p><a href="http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/13/father-of-c-and-unix-dennis-ritchie-passes-away-at-age-70/" rel="nofollow">http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/13/father-of-c-and-unix-dennis-ritchie-passes-away-at-age-70/</a></p>
<p>The kind of influence that we <i>think</i> Steve Jobs had, Dennis Ritchie <i>truly</i> did have. But he is unknown outside of tech circles. Hmmmm. Showmanship much, Steve? </p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to have a thread one time where we talk about expanding modes of communication and the good and bad they represent. I say bad because of course communication is a tool, to be used in all kinds of ways. Like maybe a FFT on whether or not the internet is a vector of freedom.</p>
<p>(And I can hear you asking &#8220;That&#8217;s what you think is a fun thread?&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Vagina Dentata</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/07/let-us-now-praise-less-famous-men/comment-page-1/#comment-74737</link>
		<dc:creator>Vagina Dentata</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=21324#comment-74737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The term &#039;Jobsian Technology&#039; was meant to be satirical and humourous.

The &#039;products&#039; of Mr. Jobs allow for the dissemination of ideas.
Ideas change the world through the agency of social justice activists.
Music is a powerful conduit for these ideas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The term &#8216;Jobsian Technology&#8217; was meant to be satirical and humourous.</p>
<p>The &#8216;products&#8217; of Mr. Jobs allow for the dissemination of ideas.<br />
Ideas change the world through the agency of social justice activists.<br />
Music is a powerful conduit for these ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: baraqiel</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/07/let-us-now-praise-less-famous-men/comment-page-1/#comment-74710</link>
		<dc:creator>baraqiel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 01:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=21324#comment-74710</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@rodriguez - Oh, sorry, maybe I was unclear.  I don&#039;t think that Jobs really did anything to help cell phone penetration or mass communications (except transmission of music, where he really did have a large impact).  I just disagree with the statement that &quot;There’s not any such thing as Jobsian technology.&quot;  There definitely is, it has clear and easily-identifiable hallmarks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@rodriguez &#8211; Oh, sorry, maybe I was unclear.  I don&#8217;t think that Jobs really did anything to help cell phone penetration or mass communications (except transmission of music, where he really did have a large impact).  I just disagree with the statement that &#8220;There’s not any such thing as Jobsian technology.&#8221;  There definitely is, it has clear and easily-identifiable hallmarks.</p>
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		<title>By: rodriguez</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/07/let-us-now-praise-less-famous-men/comment-page-1/#comment-74708</link>
		<dc:creator>rodriguez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 01:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=21324#comment-74708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think that his projects around product design are the ones that help spread ideas, so I don&#039;t see it the way you and Vagina Dentata see it.

The way I see it, the technologies that aid communication are not the ones that Jobs made his mark in. He was working a couple layers up from there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think that his projects around product design are the ones that help spread ideas, so I don&#8217;t see it the way you and Vagina Dentata see it.</p>
<p>The way I see it, the technologies that aid communication are not the ones that Jobs made his mark in. He was working a couple layers up from there.</p>
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		<title>By: baraqiel</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2011/10/07/let-us-now-praise-less-famous-men/comment-page-1/#comment-74705</link>
		<dc:creator>baraqiel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 00:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=21324#comment-74705</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@rodriguez - I don&#039;t think that Jobs really did much for social justice in the world (let alone environmental justice.....), but there certainly is such a thing as Jobsian technology.  There are several aspects of product design in personal electronics that were invented and introduced by Jobs and Apple under his leadership.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@rodriguez &#8211; I don&#8217;t think that Jobs really did much for social justice in the world (let alone environmental justice&#8230;..), but there certainly is such a thing as Jobsian technology.  There are several aspects of product design in personal electronics that were invented and introduced by Jobs and Apple under his leadership.</p>
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