From regular Harpyness commenter MischiefManager:
Mawwiage, that bwessed awangment…that dweam within a dweam…
I ran across this piece the other day in our local newspaper, which picked it up from the Washington Post. The headline reads, “Married couples at a record low,” and goes on to discuss recent trends in cohabiting choices. The author, Carol Morello, says, “[t]he marriage patterns are a striking departure from the middle of the 20th century, when the percentage of adults who never wed was in the low single digits. In 1960, for example, when most baby boomers were children, 72 percent of all adults were married. The median age for brides was barely 20, and the grooms were just a couple of years older.” She goes on to argue that marriage rates are dropping particularly among the poor and those under 30.
Although the drop in marriage rates is not news, for some reason this piece caught my attention. The idea that “four in 10 Americans younger than 30 consider marriage passé” is startling to me, I have to admit. Granted, I don’t know how the question was phrased, and certainly people in their 30’s may feel differently about this matter than people in their 20’s, passé is a pretty strong word for such a longstanding, dominant institution.
Mr MM and I have been married for 28 years. I didn’t date as a teenager, being pretty inept with boys, and into my 20’s I still didn’t do much dating. It never occurred to me that I would ever marry; I was pretty average-looking and not skilled in relationship building. I can’t say I was especially interested in marriage or kids either. When I met the future Mr MM, he was quite clear that he was looking to get married, and after we’d dated for a couple of years, that seemed the next logical step. I didn’t think about it much, since I knew that by entering into a serious relationship with him I was tacitly accepting his terms. I’ve had no cause to regret choosing marriage. Mr MM is a supportive, loving partner and we have a good life together. We went on to have a couple of kids and I was a stay-at-home mom for about 16 years—it doesn’t get much more heteronormative than that. For us, marriage has been a success.
I know, though, that I’m older than the Harpies and many of the readers of this blog. So I’m curious. Are you married? In an LTR without marriage? Why? How did you decide whether to have the relationship sanctioned by the state?
If you’re not married, do you want to be at some point? Why or why not? What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of marriage? Here, I guess we have to separate civil from religious marriage, since the reasons for choosing each are different.
If you agree with the article, why do you think that choosing to marry is becoming a class issue? Do you think this is a long-term trend or just a blip due to a poor economy?
Thoughts?
I grew up in a family with parents who have been happily married for (now) 35+ years. Growing up, I always assumed that if I did meet someone I wanted to be in a relationship with, it would be a long-term thing, not casual. I just don’t have the temperament. I don’t form casual non-sexual friendships either, so I assumed sexual intimacy would only increase my desire for long-term connection.
(For context, I’m in my early 30s … so just at the upper end of the group this article purports to talk about)
My younger brother and his wife married last year, after living together for about four years prior. My sister is co-habiting with her boyfriend of about three years. So my family has a history of long and serious relationships, although there has never been parental pressure from my folks to get married and somehow “make it official.”
I’m obviously in a somewhat different situation since marrying Hanna would be a quasi-political statement, and a civil marriage would be impossible in my home state (though possible here in Massachusetts). We’ve talked about it, on both the civil/legal and symbolic level. In a civil sense, it’s kinda complicated since state marriage law would apply, but federal benefits (social security, tax code, etc.) wouldn’t thanks to DOMA. So there’s no real advantage right now of marrying legally since we both have health insurance through our work, and we don’t have children we need to be legally tied to.
On a symbolic level, it’s very important to me that at some point, assuming we are affirming this as a long-term relationship (which we both want to), we make public promises to each other before witnesses (friends and family). And I would like to find some way for us to reflect that commitment in our names as well, although we haven’t yet settled on a satisfactory option.
I’m married (not for an especially long time). There were several reasons. The legal benefits of marriage, obviously, played a very big role (I have a job with benefits, Husband did not, hence, now he has benefits).
But, if I’m being wholly honest, I got married because to me, it was a way of making a public (in front of family) and formal committment to him. I’m a lawyer, so I suppose I like the idea of solidifying promises and making them in front of others. Do you need marriage? No, I don’t think so. And I think it’s better that way. I like knowing that I am married solely and wholly because I want to be. I liked being able to make promises to him in front of our families and to God.
Why do we need the sanctioning of the state? Well, I guess I like to think that the state has an interest in sanctioning healthy, supportive, egalitarian relationships (and that is why same sex marriage needs to be recognized). I also like to think that marriage is finally shedding all the false prerequisites that were attached to it for a long time – hence the drop off. It used to be presumed that marriage was for childbearing and if you wanted children, you needed marriage. It used to be assumed that marriage was the best option for young women because they didn’t have many other options – it’s good that this has fallen by the wayside. To me, the lower rates aren’t a bad thing – it’s (hopefully) evidence that less marriages are happening for the wrong reasons, and more are happening for the right reasons.
I’ve been married for 20 years to the love of my life. It’s a full fairy tale with sparkles and it’s easily the best thing I’ve ever done. I would never consider changing it.
BUT…
That’s about me and him, and any kind of outside sanction is completely irrelevant to my commitment.
I no longer believe in marriage as an institution our society should endorse. I believe we should transition to partnerships between humans for mutual support, and there should not be any kind of “time” requirements on partnerships. The partnerships need to be exactly as difficult to enter as to leave.
Yes, I know this is a very long term goal.
On the topic of trends, I can’t really comment.
I am in my mid-30s, and have been cohabiting for 8-9 (together with the him for 10). I live somewhere where common-law is a thing (my understanding is that not everywhere has this?) so I carry him on my benefits when he doesn’t have any, we’re on the same provincial health plan account, things like that. We have had a mortgage together since 2003, which is a pretty important piece of paper, I think.
I am not interested in a “Wedding”. This is why we are not married – he would like a Wedding with the bells and whistles (more for the big party), I will not budge on this. We could have a big party any time! Why does it have to be a Wedding? I have nothing against marriage though, sharing your life with someone is great, my parents hit 40 in a few months and their relationship is something I aspire to.
Both our mothers know that, in spite of their hints, there will be no Wedding – and they both are still not okay with us eloping. So, again, no Wedding, and no wedding (little w) either. I would hope that a lower marriage rate means that people are finally seeing through the empty ceremonies and worthless trappings that society (and the patriarchy) seem to require, but I suspect they’re just waiting until the economy improves to take their turn spending thousands of $$ and symbolically making the woman go from being the property of her father to that of her husband. Ugh.
tl;dr: cohabiting/common law yay! patriarchically themed weddings boo! economy boo!
I never thought when I was younger that I would ever be married, because I couldn’t imagine getting close enough to anyone and not having it backfire and be tremendously painful (O HAI dysfunctional family and childhood!). But Mr. Anka was very persistent, and from a culture where if you don’t get married by age 30 (if a man) and age 25 (if a woman) there is something very wrong with you. Which is not the reason that he wanted to get married, but just that, for a future with him, that was what needed to be done, and I was very OK with that.
Also, even though my parents were married, my dad was of the “religion is evil and fascist and out to get us and there is no G-d except for maybe me” mentality, and both of them were of the “the state is evil and fascist and out to get us” mentality. So (and this is just me personally–I wouldn’t presume to speak for anyone else) being married in the eyes of a religious entity (Muslim so far, in Mr. Anka’s country of origin–we’ll have a Jewish wedding once we have the funds)and the state feels like a refreshing and healthy transcendence of my parents’ worldviews. And it’s not like we WOULDN’T be committed to each other without marriage, but marriage feels like the extra-special icing on the delicious cake. Or something like that.
Perhaps weddings and marriage is considered a “class” issue because of the Wedding Industrial Complex, which makes it seem like EVERY wedding has to be a multi-million dollar extravaganza. Maybe people think if they can’t have a wedding styled and financed as seen in People or In Style or whatever magazine, they don’t want to try.
I am old as fuck and have never been married. If I did get married it’d be a justice of the peace type affair and a fantastic trip afterwards, not a giant look at my dress occasion. I don’t see it happening, tho. I am happy being single, having boyfriends or whatever they should be called at my age. Menfriends?
I definitely like being referred to as a “lady friend”! As in, leave my lady friend out of this! I’m just helping her to conceive! (Paraphrased Dude quote.)
That said, anyone who wishes to be married to a partner of his/her own choosing should be able to do so.
Cheers
My boyfriend and I started dating when I was 20 and he was 24 – he asked what my 20 year old thoughts on marriage were when we started dating, and I told him that I didn’t know if I EVER wanted to get married (because that’s what a 20 year old in women’s studies classes thinks, amiright??). In retrospect, this is one of the better things I could have said, because we were too young and dumb to consider marriage, and it took it off the table for at least a few years.
We’ve been together almost 8 years now, know that we have a solid relationship to build a marriage on, and have discussed maybe taking that step in a couple of years when he’s finished with school. I’m happy with the way things have turned out. Granted, we have no children, and there would probably be more urgency to take the step to marriage sooner if that were to happen (but I’m not worried about that – thanks, Mirena!).
I think that a lot of our impressions of marriage as an institution are based off what we observe firsthand, and a lot of people in their 20s and 30s saw parents divorce (or, in my case, they saw parents who stuck together but had no idea how to argue productively and made life downright tense and uncomfortable a lot of the time). How many young people really get to watch marriages that they admire and aspire to have? My maternal grandparents have inspired my ideal marriage, and I didn’t want to get married until I knew that was something I could attain. It has taken a while for me to really feel like I’m ready to make that kind of commitment.
Never wanted a wedding (worked too many of them for too long) but would like to be married — since I don’t really have any family I would like Himself to be My Family. Also, I had to settle my brother’s estate when he died, so I’m fully aware of the weird way that my relationship with Himself is legally meaningless without a license. If he died, I’d be Nothing. He was married after nearly two decades with the same woman, and hasn’t recovered from being divorced, and has serious, instinctive reactions against the State being all up in his business. And so, we have the discussion once in a while. Meanwhile, since we’re older, we live together in the houses we came with, rotating from one to the other, and while it’s all a little unconventional, it works, and I’m happy, and so I try not to fret over what isn’t broken.
My parents met in high school and married fresh out of college. 32 years later they’re still together. So of course I grew up thinking I would get married. (And have kids, but that’s a different conversation.)
I like the comfort and reliability of lengthy relationships; people are a lot of work and I don’t want to expend a bunch of energy on you if you’re just going to bounce. So I’m friendly and socialize a lot, but I prefer my small group of close friends and I only date someone if I feel like it will last a while. This means that all my romantic endeavors have been years-long affairs…with equally years-long gaps in between!
I like the idea of coming home to someone, but recent soul-searching has made me question if that’s that’s the best life-choice for me. I’m an artist, so after punching my hours at the day job I absolutely have to go hide in my studio and create. It’s not a want; it’s a need. I seriously start to come unhinged after a few days of non-creation. It takes a special guy or girl to not get their knickers in a twist about this. I don’t come across them often, and I haven’t yet found one that we can stand each other more than three years.
My mother keeps telling me I wasn’t made to be alone, and that’s totally true; I need lots of human interaction to counteract the isolation of arting. But I also know I can’t give up or heavily compromise creating for the sake of a relationship.
So I’m starting to think that finding artist support, tolerable roommate, and lover all in the same body is statistically impossible. And you know what? I’m okay with that.
I never objected to marriage as an institution, but nor did I feel any desire to marry or, really, readiness to marry right up until the moment I realized that the man I was living with was going to ask me to marry him. And, suddenly, marriage seemed like a good idea. Despite his spotless liberal voting record, my husband is, at heart, a good old boy from Wyoming with a tradition oriented family. If I wanted to keep him in my life, marriage was by far easier than justifying a choice not to get married.
We’ve been married eight years, and there are a lot of things that are easier. If one of us dies, the other automatically owns the house (there are a lot of ways marriage makes end of life decisions and situations easier). I get his health insurance. We get a break on our taxes. On the other hand, the house and the two kids are a lot more binding than the certificate in our fire safe.
I’ve always felt that I just kind of drifted into marriage. It was easier than the alternatives, and I’m pretty lazy. As a feminist, sometimes I’m a little horrified by my own conservative lifestyle – I worked while my husband was getting his doctorate, and then became a stay at home mom, where I use my chemistry degree to help my son and his friends build volcanoes at the dinner table. But it’s the life that works for me, and I don’t regret the marriage.
I don’t see how anyone, anywhere can honestly think it’s a bad thing that people are marrying later though. Waiting till you’re more mature and know who you are to get married seems like an absolute no-brainer to me.
I think Gogobooty has an excellent point, which certainly applies to marriage here in the UK. Here, there is far less religious fuss and hand-wringing about marriage. And among people I know in their 20s, 30s and early 40s, wealth seems the biggest factor in whether a couple is married or not. It’s not the only factor – some poorer couples got married on the cheap, some wealthier couples conscientiously object, but for them it *is* conscientious, because it’s something you do if you can afford to. Poorer couples feel they can’t afford to “do it properly” and so it isn’t worth worrying about. A lot of people frame an objection to marriage in purely financial terms.
How I feel about the subject personally would be an essay in of itself, but I think this business of the “Wedding Industrial Complex” has got a lot to do with many people’s choices, in the absence of massive social pressure. Even when people do it in an unconventional way, it is often expensively unconventional.
It’s a bit like Christmas really.
I’m twenty-three, and EVERYONE is asking when I’m going to find someone and ‘settle down’ (NOT get married, since Nebraska doesn’t allow same-sex marriage). My peers are all getting married and having children, and they find it utterly bizarre that I have no interest in either. My younger sister had her first child with her high school boyfriend about a year ago and they got married in October, and my older brother is in a serious, long-term relationship with a woman who already has a child, and they’re going to be moving in together next year.
Yet I’ve been single since I was nineteen.
Part of it’s anxiety–I don’t like being around people, and even people I like, I can’t physically be around for long periods of time. Part of it’s that I’m a very private, territorial person and don’t like sharing space. And to be honest, I’ve just never been interested in relationships or ‘starting a family,’ a phrase I’ve never liked on account of I’ve got a perfectly good family already, why do they not count?
I suspect if I’d lived a few decades ago, I would have been pressured into (heterosexual) marriage, so I count myself lucky I live when I do.
Well, I typed out a long screed regarding my desire to never marry and explained my distaste for the traditions and institution while recognizing my privilege in living in a country where any two consenting adults can have their common-law relationship recognized by law/government, including inheritance rights, medical benefits (even provided by an employer), visitation rights, and so forth and being of the same citizenship as my partner so that immigration issues are not a problem for us, but I deleted it. Married people are usually really invested in marriage and take my reasons for wanting to end the institution of marriage as a personal attack.
Let me simply say that any consenting adults who want to register their relationship should be able to do so by signing a contract indicating their status, which by law should be recognized by the state for inheritance, custody, visitation, medical rights and all of the other legal rights/responsibilities that are conveyed through marriage at this time. If desired, the contract may have term limits at which point the partners can choose to renew, or not. If you want to have a party to celebrate, great. If you want the representative of your sky fairy of choice to make you swear an oath to be true, so be it. But that representative should not be able to bind you in the eyes of the law, nor should that representative’s personal beliefs prevent consenting adults from making their relationship legally official.
My husband and I have been together for 20 years, and married for 17 (though the first number is the one I feel is more important).
When my husband and I started dating it very quickly felt like “this is it”. We didn’t need the wedding, but it was convenient. Neither of us were particularly happy with our own families, and a wedding was our way of saying “we are our OWN family now, separate for either of yours”.
Also, we had both just graduated college and were moving across the country. It was a good transition to have. That’s all for the ceremony stuff. It was a small wedding, sort of a family reunion for all the relatives.
Huge reason for the legal wedding: health insurance. I have chronic rheumatoid arthritis, and eye problems resulting from that, and other health issues related to all THAT. My husband got a job with a big company that would cover me with an excellent plan if we were married.
Long term committments are a family thing I guess. I have 4 siblings, and none of us really dated much, but attached firmly with one person and have been with them since. 2 of my brothers are gay, and they CAN’T get married, but their committment is the same as those of us that got the legal marriage.
I’m not surprised by the downturn in marriage…unless you need health insurance or some other legal benefit, there isn’t really much point if you feel a committment anyway.
In my late twenties I am in that demographic. But I wouldn’t say I consider marriage passe I’d say I consider traditional marriages no longer the only option, and probably not the best for most people. I view the institution of marriage (regardless of civil or religious) as one in the beginnings of great flux. I think it will continue to be re-defined over at least the next century.
@Joanne – Agreed! Common-law YAY!
I suggest a contract simply to ensure that the law recognizes the relationship (hetero monogamous common-law relationships are typically not questioned as long as the families don’t raise a fuss, but still harder for same-sex or poly relationships because of existing biases)
I agree with gogobooty about weddings and class. There is a lot of pressure to have a “proper” wedding, whatever that means, and women get chided — always by other women — for not having all the bells and whistles. I got a lot of flack for our low-key wedding, but it helped me weed out friends from acquaintances. So I consider it an advantage overall.
When I was younger, I never thought I would get married. For me, it was just right person at the right time. And, as others have mentioned, the legal and health insurance benefits don’t hurt! I remember reading a trend piece in the Times about that a while ago.
My previous boyfriend and I were together for six years and had no plans on getting married although eventually we would have been in a common-law marriage because of our state of residence. I’ve always been in the mindset of what works for some, doesn’t have to work for all.
I am 41, been married for 10 years. To an old-fashioned guy that was much more into getting married than I was. Probably still wouldn’t be if it were up to me. I feel people do not take commitments seriously, everything is disposable or replaceable. Plus, thanks to my own paternal figure, I am not too trusting. I was quite reluctant, but it was so very important to my guy that I gave in as I adore him. Seems no different to me than when we just lived together. I don’t regret it, but don’t feel marriage is necessary today. I’m glad the stats are declining. Woman need give up on the wedding princess BS and think long and hard before marrying. Very important that you make yourself happy before marrying and hoping he will make you happy.
I feel really lucky, I would add, to have grown up not only with examples of good marriages but ALSO with examples of folks who remained single well into adulthood and didn’t seem stalled our express feelings of failure regarding their lives because they weren’t married with kids. My aunt pursued several advanced degrees and lived on her own until getting married when I was nineteen. She was in her forties. An adopted uncle was single throughout my childhood, and is in a LTR (unmarried) with someone he’s now been with about fifteen years (wow! has it been that long?!). Another uncle didn’t marry until about for years ago, when in his fifties. At least four college professors whom I count as mentors and later friends were/are unmarried into their forties and beyond. All of these people were doing really interesting things with their lives — so I grew up seeing that singleness didn’t equal failure, just as much as being married didn’t equal the end of personhood.
In many ways, I’m a dyssynchronous (antediluvian?) personality. My own attitudes are those of several generations ago. While I threw myself wholeheartedly into each educational paradigm I encountered on the way to growing up, and tried on the very liberalness of each of my schools, at heart I absorbed many of the mores and expectations of my grandparents’ generation, who are really more like four or five generations ago (if they were alive today, they’d all be about 125 years old). I internalized many of my mother’s dreams and expectations and dictums, which she wholeheartedly lifted from her mother. The modern world has rounded them off like riverrock but left their structure untouched.
This long preamble is by way of putting in context the fact that I always assumed I would get married and have children. And have a successful career and a maid, like my mother and her mother before her. (So far, marriage, kids and career, yes; maid, no.)
So when I hear the common argument that marriage is mostly for health insurance, it baffles me.
I of course understand that for many people today, that is the reality. I of course agree that anyone should be able to marry whomever they wish for whatever reason makes sense to them (and to divorce them if they so desire). I’ve lived in this century even if I’m not completely of it, so I’ve seen the strife and injustice of such artificial restrictions on human rights. (Really, New York State? People still have to live separated for two years before divorcing??)
But I don’t understand the need to defend the idea of marriage. Why shouldn’t any two people (or heck, more!) be able to enter into a binding agreement like this to honor and care for each other and their other relationships? I absolutely feel more bound by signing a contract, in front of our friends and family and the state, than I did by simply cohabiting. Some of that comes from being an editor and the child of a lawyer – I respect documents and the written word. They bear a weight and premeditation and thoughtfulness (to me) that mere verbal acknowledgement doesn’t. And it was extremely important to me that my husband be willing to go through the very formal process of a wedding, a ceremony, a public acknowledgement of our bond. And I’ve never, ever felt more loved (by all our loved ones) than on that day. (Until we had kids, but that’s a whole different ball of wax.)
The marriage was important to me, to us, to our then-future kids. To build our stable base to weather the stings of life with a mutual commitment. To ensure the proper passage of material and familial goods after his or my death. I even took my husband’s name (horror of horrors for my women’s college/feminist upbringing!).
Do I think that the ceremony is equally important to all relationships/marriages/longterm commitments? Of course not.
For me, it really was. And is. We’ve had our share of rough times in the last 11 years (married for 9), and the thought of untangling the legal nightmare and emotional scarring (for us, and especially for the kids) that is divorce has pushed us to work harder at times. The marriage ceremony was part of my process of letting my husband in. If he’s willing to do that for me, I can trust him with other things. It took six more years before I was willing to share a bank account with him. I wouldn’t have done it if we weren’t legally married, no matter how many protestations of undying faithfulness he makes.
All this is encumbent on the idea that my partner takes marriage just as seriously as I do. Which he does. I managed to find someone with the same antediluvian values as mine.
I do not mean to attack anyone who questions marriage as an institution, especially since Wondering seems to think someone like me might feel personally attacked. I don’t feel attacked, and I’m not attacking. I do see a huge value in questioning patriarchal paradigms and think we shouldn’t require marriage as a society. We need to change our tax and legal structure to reflect reality. People aren’t getting married. Big deal. The thing I don’t get is why abolish an institution if there is still good in it. Just because it’s used for ill doesn’t make it inherently bad.
And if someday I end up single again, I’m certain I can live a full, interesting life on my own, with the rest of my family, my kids, and my friends. And read all the Agatha Christies I want.
Thankfully, I’ve never had the marriage pressure, my family are cooler than that. I was in a LTR from age 20-30, we had no plans to marry although his mum wanted us to for the tax benefits, and he said he’d have wanted to if we had kids. He was stridently anti-marriage as an institution, I have absolutely no opinion on it.
Had he wanted to, I’d have been OK with it, but I was perfectly happy as we were – never assumed I’d be married a a kid, never did the ‘I want a meringuey frock and all that’ thing, it just passed me by in a haze of ponies, which were all I really cared about.
Nearly 4 years after we split up, I’m just at the beginning of something that may turn out to last, but I’ve still got no desire to get married. I’ve never had the wanting to be married in the abstract thing, I’d have married my ex if he’d wanted to because it was about us specificially. Newboy is still far too new to be thinking on those terms but when we’ve had the awkward conversation about it on attending one of his friends’ weddings, he said he isn’t interested in it either.
I completely agree with the commenters who’ve said that it’s not that marriage is passe, so much as hetero relationships don’t have to adhere to the old married vs. unmarried binary anymore. For previous generations, you were either married or you weren’t and one type of relationship was socially sanctioned and the other wasn’t. That has changed a lot, but legally speaking, married couples are still privileged over unmarried couples in the US, which is why I strongly support marriage equality.
These days, marriage is just one of the options, and there’s a growing sense that it’s not even the best option for some folks.
My parents were married when I was born, but divorced when I was young, which I think contributes my having the well-documented Gen-X skepticism of marriage, (even despite the fact that mom and dad went on to be happily married to other people). I’m not opposed to marrying someday, but I’m hyper-aware of how much damage a bad marriage does and I don’t see marriage as necessary to my happiness so… meh. If it happens, great. If not, there are many other relationship scenarios that would make me just as happy.
At any rate, I’m deeply grateful that women’s lib and general progressivism has mostly erased that old binary.
I have never really understood the aspiration to be married in later life. Unlike AnnaJCook, I didn’t have role models/mentors who were single, but in my mind it made sense to me that being single can also mean contentment.
I have been chided by one of my sisters for choosing a life that does not necessarily include marriage, homemaking, child-wrangling. But the thing that counts more than anything else is being content with the way my life is panning out. And I am content.
I am not likely to marry, and do not attach a lot of social capital in the institution.
To my mind I just wish there was a complete separation between the state functions, and the social functions of a wedding and marriage (and for those religiously inclined, parish/recognition before your deity functions).
So in some ways I wish the actual institution was no longer around, and that people who would like their community of loved ones to recognise their union can do so (party, formal ceremony, whatever).
The state and church involvement, to my mind, are extras for those who may or may not want to have those other institutions involved.
I’m 40, and I got married when I was 35. Frankly, the idea of me being married never, ever occurred to me while I was growing up, or through my 20s. I’ve had a disabling, deforming illness since before elementary school, and those around me, particularly those of the opposite sex (including my dad and brother) assured me that would always be a deal-breaker in the romance department. Add to that my feminism, intellect and inability to be a coquette, and I was pretty much doomed to non-wifedom.
I dated, had a few flings, inappropriate and appropriate, but always figured I would be alone with the occasional short-time lover. And that was fine, since I had dear friends, and an interesting career, and a thirst for knowledge and adventure.
I still haven’t quite understood that I’m actually married, though we’re very happy together and I would be heartbroken if something happened to him. So I can understand why others would consider marriage passe, or unnecessary, or whatever. Especially if you don’t fit the parameters of what a husband or wife should be.
Great thread, mm. More please!
Can I be OT a little now that it has died down?
elibard, one time you might talk some more about your antediluvian values because I’ve been on path away from some antediluvian ideas myself.
Has anybody seen George Carlin talking about luck? He says that we love people that start with hard luck and end up rich and successful, and we disdain people who start off rich and end life poor. The punch line is, why do we admire people for the order of their luck?
That idea has been ringing in my head for a while now, because I think it applies to ideologies/systems of thought/frames of reference. Why do we privilege the starting point of our world views?
As someone also from the UK I agree largely with the Goldfish. And also thought Wondering’s post was largely right about the ridiculousness inherent in the whole marriage concept – although while I don’t know about the US in the UK a church wedding is not legally binding, as my sister discovered when she failed to go to a registrar and have the civil part done ahead of the church kerfuffle.
That said I am married, have been for five years, but wasn’t that fussed about whether I did or not. I married my husband three months after we started going out and have no regrets about that. Financially should we be married absolutely not we both have debt, I work in an industry that’s best described as unreliable, we have no savings and no house. Strictly speaking it is probably irresponsible of us to have children but I have to say I don’t really care as I’m fond of them and don’t care if I never own my own house.
All of which is a long winded way of saying that everyone has different values – I didn’t care about my financial state before I married but if I hadn’t met the right person I wouldn’t have cared if I’d never married at all. As to why I married him rather than living with him, to be honest i don’t know, it just felt right for us and I didn’t have huge anti-marriage opinions (hmm this post is making me sound like a very ‘whatever’ kind of person).
Basically I think its ridiculous that people make marriage into a huge thing but I’m personally very happy with my own marriage (if that doesn’t sound too self-centred).
Also I meant to add its very easy for me not to be that fussed about marriage because it’s not something thats denied to me. I would feel rather different if I was being told I couldn’t marry.
Thanks for all the responses! They’ve been most thought-provoking and, as always, I love to learn more about the people who post here.
We seem to be a very laissez-faire bunch (surprise, surprise) on the question of the institution of marriage, as am I. Although I think we all agree that stable relationships are good for society, we wonder about the state requiring a civil ceremony in order to be eligible for various government perqs. When people feel that they have to make a serious commitment like this in order to get health care, we’ve got a big problem. Still, if we’re going to reward desirable behavior with government goodies, every consenting adult who wants to partake should be able to. And on the other side, people married before there were government benefits to be had, and I imagine they’d continue to do so without such benefits. So do we need to treat married people differently than single people at all?
To the extent that marriage is becoming tied to income, that undermines the traditional religious reasons for marrying, doesn’t it? So, again, why do it at all? I am a big believer in the power and value of public ritual, as I’ve said here before, and like a number of you, I think that entering into a committed relationship (or deciding that you are in one after being together for a while) deserves the notice of the community in some fashion. Creating a new family is a joyous thing and it is worth celebrating! To me, a relationship title is like a name-if you tell me you’re in a committed relationship with someone, who am I to question that? And if you tell me it’s something else next month, that’s your decision. It’s my place to respect your reported status, not to argue with you about it.
I JUST got married last month, after being a relationship for 6.5 years and living together for 4.5 years. The main reason I wanted to be married was in fact the social (more than economic) privileges still afford to married couples. I wanted to make sure we would be able make medical decisions for each other if necessary. I wanted us have no trouble being on the same health insurance policies. Those of our parents generation STILL treat marriage as more “legitimate” and requiring respect than non-married relationships. After almost 7 years together, we longed for society to see our relationship the way we already did — as family, and permanent. It is upsetting to us that these benefits are not afforded to everyone who wants them, but don’t believe that rejecting the institution would do anything to help prove that other people deserve access to it.
The reasons we wanted a *wedding* were entirely different. We wanted the chance to make our commitment public and to celebrate with our family, friends, and church family. We tried to do so in as feminist a way as possible. We entered the church together, we had a husband and wife team as our co-officiants, we had non-gender specific wedding “ninjas” instead of bridesmaids/groomsmen.
I do believe that many factors are in play with the decline in marriage. Everyone here saying that it is just one of many options is absolutely right, especially among communities who see it that way (sadly, our personal sphere doesn’t really). But I think economics plays into it for sure, as indicated in the original article inspiring the post. The wedding industry has convinced generations of women that you need to spend untold thousands to throw a proper wedding that will legitimize your marriage. We know that isn’t true, but it is hard for most people to really believe that it isn’t true. Then there is the whole myth that it *saves* money somehow to be married — neither of our incomes are very high, but one is in a different bracket than the other; if we were to file our taxes jointly (which we will not be doing), we would actually be paying MORE as a married couple, not less, because they will tax us at the higher rate. So if that were the main consideration, we would have been better off staying shacked up.
I laughed at the image posted next to this article because at first glance I thought the woman was holding her head in her hands! (e.g., the two lines next to her head were supposed to be stick figure arms) Then I looked again and realized it was supposed to be a wedding veil. Heh.
I’m glad several folks have commented on separating issues with weddings (Wedding Industrial Complex) from issues with marriage. I’d have to add that there are also issues with the whole engagement process, too.
For example, the way my husband and I decided to get “engaged” (in the sense that we had decided to get married but were not yet married) was to discuss it. How else would a person make such an important life decision? There was no getting down on one knee and no hiding a ring in the dessert (no ring at all, actually). There was just a gradual period of time of dating (we dated for almost 3 years before we got married) and then at some point we started getting serious enough to discuss the subject. We talked about whether our life goals were in synch (e.g., no kids for me), how did we approach other big decisions like saving/spending, where would we live, and all the other stuff that goes into a relationship.
I cringe when I see that the old-fashioned (read: sexist) engagement silliness still exists in TV shows and movies. I presume it happens in real life, too. But really, who would want to put the other person on the spot *in public*? And why is it always the woman who gets ambushed with the question? And she’s pretty much always supposed to say yes? (tremendous pressure not to say no…)
What’s worse is when the boyfriend asks the father for permission. I just saw this on some dumb TV show last year so it still exists! There should be a whole post just about engagement issues.
Okay, finally, on to the main topic!
I’ve been married for 26 years. The reasons we are together (love, friendship, commitment) are different from the reasons for the marriage license (legal rights). I am so lucky to have found him and would do it all over again in a minute. And finding just the right partner is, in large part, just dumb luck (or karma).
I wish everyone who wanted to get married could do so. Alternatively, I’d be fine with changing or even phasing out the whole concept of marriage if it was replaced with better societal support systems. So, I don’t at all feel threatened by a discussion of eliminating marriage.
That said, I have to work within the legal system that exists now. Once my husband and I wanted to make that commitment to be together then we wanted all the legal rights that go along with marriage. We’re both pretty pragmatic people so it was the marriage that counted, not the wedding. We would have been happy to go to the justice of the peace and been done with it all.
We did have a Hindu marriage ceremony to please his folks (mostly his father). But it was very small, about 16 people total, and was held on the back patio at my parents’ house. I mention this to provide an example that unconventional does not mean expensive! I wish I could say it was short but the Hindu priest could only cut it down to about 2 hours. When you consider that elaborate Hindu weddings can last 4-5 days then 2 hours is short.
As far as what’s happening to marriage in society, and why, I feel pretty clueless in that regard. I’ve always been hopeless when it comes to predicting, let alone understanding, social trends. Heck, I still have a cheap tracfone instead of a smart phone.
I’m 28 and I think marriage is passe.
I have lots of strong examples of people making marriages work (my parents have been together for 35 years, my grandparents were together for over 65 when my grandad died) but I also have lots of examples of not needing a wedding/marriage certificate to validate a strong relationship (aunts – I have lots of aunts, they’ve tried all the options) and people getting married too soon and having a lot of hassle splitting up.
My partner (male) and I have been together for 7 years. We have no intention of getting married, even though we are trying for a baby.
We may get married one day if we move abroad as some countries require it as a signifier of joint parental responsibility (e.g. Switzerland, France) or for joint visa applications (e.g. USA) and in the UK being married becomes beneficial when you’re reaching retirement age.
We’ve had a lot of pressure from his parents to get married, enough that I’ve asked two lawyers (friends) about it, and in the UK, right now, there are no concrete legal/financial benefits to marriage worth the hassle. (I know some people see spiritual/religious/personal benefits to marriage, although we don’t, and I didn’t ask the lawyers about those!)