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	<title>Comments on: The Vatican&#8217;s Attack on America&#8217;s Nuns</title>
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	<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/</link>
	<description>As narrated by the most charming and vicious women on the internet</description>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/comment-page-1/#comment-88286</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=22302#comment-88286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The world would benefit from a married Catholic priesthood.  Celibacy is not for everyone, never was, nor should it be.  The entire idea that married men and woman are not as worthy or available to minister is absurd.  It&#039;s unbelievable that it still goes on and on and on.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The world would benefit from a married Catholic priesthood.  Celibacy is not for everyone, never was, nor should it be.  The entire idea that married men and woman are not as worthy or available to minister is absurd.  It&#8217;s unbelievable that it still goes on and on and on.</p>
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		<title>By: Mackey</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/comment-page-1/#comment-87872</link>
		<dc:creator>Mackey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2012 05:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=22302#comment-87872</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see parallels of this discussion in terms of leaders and people in leadership positions and what they do and whether it is done in the people&#039;s name in larger communities or even countries. 
Sometimes there are difficulties in being able to remove yourself from a particular institution or community. And in that case the option that works is still working to try to change it reformer style.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments expressed by Drahill (especially the ones about why you would stay in a particular branch of faith) I also get why people stay and work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see parallels of this discussion in terms of leaders and people in leadership positions and what they do and whether it is done in the people&#8217;s name in larger communities or even countries.<br />
Sometimes there are difficulties in being able to remove yourself from a particular institution or community. And in that case the option that works is still working to try to change it reformer style.</p>
<p>Whilst I agree with the sentiments expressed by Drahill (especially the ones about why you would stay in a particular branch of faith) I also get why people stay and work.</p>
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		<title>By: Drahill</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/comment-page-1/#comment-87855</link>
		<dc:creator>Drahill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 20:24:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=22302#comment-87855</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think Ratzinger is acting out of fear; at least, none of his statements suggest it. He seems to want a Church that is comprised of &quot;true believers&quot; as he sees them. I think much of that comes from the fact that for years, he was the Pope&#039;s enforcer for theological &quot;purity.&quot; I don&#039;t think Ratzinger fears American Catholics - they have shown repeatedly that they will, by and large, stay Catholics despite the Pope. And really, what does he have to fear? He has been Pope for almost 7 years now and has been doing exactly what he wants, cracking down on dissenters and expanding the Church&#039;s reach into the Third World with disasterous results. I think he&#039;s most inclined to purge to enforce ideological purity than anything else. If progressive Catholics actually had means to effectively stop him, then I&#039;d say it was fear. But they don&#039;t, at least as far as I can see.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Ratzinger is acting out of fear; at least, none of his statements suggest it. He seems to want a Church that is comprised of &#8220;true believers&#8221; as he sees them. I think much of that comes from the fact that for years, he was the Pope&#8217;s enforcer for theological &#8220;purity.&#8221; I don&#8217;t think Ratzinger fears American Catholics &#8211; they have shown repeatedly that they will, by and large, stay Catholics despite the Pope. And really, what does he have to fear? He has been Pope for almost 7 years now and has been doing exactly what he wants, cracking down on dissenters and expanding the Church&#8217;s reach into the Third World with disasterous results. I think he&#8217;s most inclined to purge to enforce ideological purity than anything else. If progressive Catholics actually had means to effectively stop him, then I&#8217;d say it was fear. But they don&#8217;t, at least as far as I can see.</p>
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		<title>By: BeckySharper</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/comment-page-1/#comment-87846</link>
		<dc:creator>BeckySharper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=22302#comment-87846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt; I don’t see the crackdown as an act of fear, I see it as a purge. &lt;/em&gt;

Same thing. You try to purge the people/ideology that opposes you and your ideology. If you didn&#039;t see them as potential obstacle to the success of your ideology, you wouldn&#039;t bother.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em> I don’t see the crackdown as an act of fear, I see it as a purge. </em></p>
<p>Same thing. You try to purge the people/ideology that opposes you and your ideology. If you didn&#8217;t see them as potential obstacle to the success of your ideology, you wouldn&#8217;t bother.</p>
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		<title>By: BeckySharper</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/comment-page-1/#comment-87838</link>
		<dc:creator>BeckySharper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=22302#comment-87838</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Drahill: &lt;em&gt;In reality, the Pope and the highest up members of the Church have no incentive to do what the general populace of Catholics want. As long as one goes to church and puts the envelopes in, they are pleased. &lt;/em&gt; 

True, but Benedict and most of his hardcore ideologues will not be around in 20 years. It only takes one reform-minded Pope to make changes, as John XXIII did. When Benedict was elected there was a huge skirmish between the hardcores and the progressives and the hardcores won out. But they can&#039;t count on having the majority forever.

And practically speaking, the Church&#039;s continuing inability to fill jobs---their seminaries are practically empty in this country and even emptier in Europe---is ultimately what&#039;s going to force institutional change. That and the fact that those envelopes have been getting scarcer and scarcer thanks to child abuse scandals and general disenchantment. The Church will act to save itself, even if that means having to soften on some issues that they previously refused to soften on.

&lt;em&gt; To question Papal teachings on morality is heresy and sinful. The second problem is that, in Catholicism, as in many other faiths, there is no line between the theological teachings and social morality. &lt;/em&gt;

Except that everyone&#039;s already doing exactly that. American and European Catholics simply don&#039;t care anymore about Vatican-approved morality on social issues like divorce, contraception, or even abortion. Practically speaking, that battle was lost a long time ago. Benedict&#039;s made a special crusade of trying to get European Catholics to toe the line and utterly failed. You can&#039;t put that toothpaste back in the tube, and he knows it.

Clearly, if the Church feels the need to send in the Inquisition, they&#039;re feeling threatened. A lot of Catholic progressives I know are biding their time, waiting for Benedict and his generation to die, and preparing for a Vatican III at some point in our lifetimes. I think it will happen. The Catholic Church being what it is, change will not happen quickly, but I think the current crackdown is evidence that today&#039;s ideologically conservative Pope sees it happening in many ways right now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Drahill: <em>In reality, the Pope and the highest up members of the Church have no incentive to do what the general populace of Catholics want. As long as one goes to church and puts the envelopes in, they are pleased. </em> </p>
<p>True, but Benedict and most of his hardcore ideologues will not be around in 20 years. It only takes one reform-minded Pope to make changes, as John XXIII did. When Benedict was elected there was a huge skirmish between the hardcores and the progressives and the hardcores won out. But they can&#8217;t count on having the majority forever.</p>
<p>And practically speaking, the Church&#8217;s continuing inability to fill jobs&#8212;their seminaries are practically empty in this country and even emptier in Europe&#8212;is ultimately what&#8217;s going to force institutional change. That and the fact that those envelopes have been getting scarcer and scarcer thanks to child abuse scandals and general disenchantment. The Church will act to save itself, even if that means having to soften on some issues that they previously refused to soften on.</p>
<p><em> To question Papal teachings on morality is heresy and sinful. The second problem is that, in Catholicism, as in many other faiths, there is no line between the theological teachings and social morality. </em></p>
<p>Except that everyone&#8217;s already doing exactly that. American and European Catholics simply don&#8217;t care anymore about Vatican-approved morality on social issues like divorce, contraception, or even abortion. Practically speaking, that battle was lost a long time ago. Benedict&#8217;s made a special crusade of trying to get European Catholics to toe the line and utterly failed. You can&#8217;t put that toothpaste back in the tube, and he knows it.</p>
<p>Clearly, if the Church feels the need to send in the Inquisition, they&#8217;re feeling threatened. A lot of Catholic progressives I know are biding their time, waiting for Benedict and his generation to die, and preparing for a Vatican III at some point in our lifetimes. I think it will happen. The Catholic Church being what it is, change will not happen quickly, but I think the current crackdown is evidence that today&#8217;s ideologically conservative Pope sees it happening in many ways right now.</p>
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		<title>By: Joetta Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/comment-page-1/#comment-87837</link>
		<dc:creator>Joetta Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=22302#comment-87837</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One generation&#039;s heretic is often the next generation&#039;s saint.  That&#039;s the evidence of reform, and it is probably as true in the secular world as it is in the RC church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One generation&#8217;s heretic is often the next generation&#8217;s saint.  That&#8217;s the evidence of reform, and it is probably as true in the secular world as it is in the RC church.</p>
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		<title>By: Drahill</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/comment-page-1/#comment-87832</link>
		<dc:creator>Drahill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 17:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=22302#comment-87832</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Becky, I understand about reforming institutions from within, which I think is generally a noble goal, by and large. There are very specific reasons why I think attempts to reform the Catholic Church are, by and large, not working.

The primary reason is because the Church itself was set up, from the beginning, to be a top-down type of church. It has that whole rule about how when the Pope speaks on matters of faith, he cannot be wrong. Part of Catholic dogma is blind alliegance to the Pope in matters of faith. To question Papal teachings on morality is heresy and sinful. The second problem is that, in Catholicism, as in many other faiths, there is no line between the theological teachings and social morality. The one informs the other. So under that standard, a lack of ferocity on social or moral issues could actually be taken to be a lack of ferocity towards the underlying moral issues as well.

In reality, the Pope and the highest up members of the Church have no incentive to do what the general populace of Catholics want. As long as one goes to church and puts the envelopes in, they are pleased. And because the theological structure of the Church is set up to stifle dissent, any dissenter can simply be written off as a sinner, a heretic and be excommunicated. It is an institution that, at least in my opinion, is completely designed to be impervious to reform. I just cannot see how, in knowing this, one could in good faith stay in such a faith.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Becky, I understand about reforming institutions from within, which I think is generally a noble goal, by and large. There are very specific reasons why I think attempts to reform the Catholic Church are, by and large, not working.</p>
<p>The primary reason is because the Church itself was set up, from the beginning, to be a top-down type of church. It has that whole rule about how when the Pope speaks on matters of faith, he cannot be wrong. Part of Catholic dogma is blind alliegance to the Pope in matters of faith. To question Papal teachings on morality is heresy and sinful. The second problem is that, in Catholicism, as in many other faiths, there is no line between the theological teachings and social morality. The one informs the other. So under that standard, a lack of ferocity on social or moral issues could actually be taken to be a lack of ferocity towards the underlying moral issues as well.</p>
<p>In reality, the Pope and the highest up members of the Church have no incentive to do what the general populace of Catholics want. As long as one goes to church and puts the envelopes in, they are pleased. And because the theological structure of the Church is set up to stifle dissent, any dissenter can simply be written off as a sinner, a heretic and be excommunicated. It is an institution that, at least in my opinion, is completely designed to be impervious to reform. I just cannot see how, in knowing this, one could in good faith stay in such a faith.</p>
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		<title>By: Joetta Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/comment-page-1/#comment-87828</link>
		<dc:creator>Joetta Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 17:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=22302#comment-87828</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From nursing those struck down by cholera in the 19th century to being among the first to accept AIDs patients into their nursing homes in the 20th, women religious in the United States have faithfully served the sick and outcast among us. From the Civil War, where they nursed wounded on both sides, to the Civil Rights Movement, where they marched alongside those seeking justice, to today as they stand for justice for the voiceless.  They now require us to stand with them against the misogyny in their own religious tradition.  For more information on what they did in the past go to:  http://womenandspirit.org/about.html 
For their work in the present go to    http://www.networklobby.org/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From nursing those struck down by cholera in the 19th century to being among the first to accept AIDs patients into their nursing homes in the 20th, women religious in the United States have faithfully served the sick and outcast among us. From the Civil War, where they nursed wounded on both sides, to the Civil Rights Movement, where they marched alongside those seeking justice, to today as they stand for justice for the voiceless.  They now require us to stand with them against the misogyny in their own religious tradition.  For more information on what they did in the past go to:  <a href="http://womenandspirit.org/about.html" rel="nofollow">http://womenandspirit.org/about.html</a><br />
For their work in the present go to    <a href="http://www.networklobby.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.networklobby.org/</a></p>
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		<title>By: BeckySharper</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/comment-page-1/#comment-87823</link>
		<dc:creator>BeckySharper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 17:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=22302#comment-87823</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@rodriguez: Well, yeah. Progressive is relative and if you&#039;re Catholic, there&#039;s pretty much nowhere to go but up when it comes to being progressive on women&#039;s issues. 

I do think that there&#039;s value in working to improve the institution, and I think that a lot of what progressives within conservative religions do is done in order to better serve and help their co-religionists. In essence, the nuns are often doing for their fellow Catholics what the institutional Church will not do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@rodriguez: Well, yeah. Progressive is relative and if you&#8217;re Catholic, there&#8217;s pretty much nowhere to go but up when it comes to being progressive on women&#8217;s issues. </p>
<p>I do think that there&#8217;s value in working to improve the institution, and I think that a lot of what progressives within conservative religions do is done in order to better serve and help their co-religionists. In essence, the nuns are often doing for their fellow Catholics what the institutional Church will not do.</p>
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		<title>By: rodriguez</title>
		<link>http://www.harpyness.com/2012/04/22/the-vaticans-attack-on-americas-nuns/comment-page-1/#comment-87822</link>
		<dc:creator>rodriguez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 17:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.harpyness.com/?p=22302#comment-87822</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see the value for those in the RCC to stay inside and work to change it from within. I don&#039;t think those people are progressive in the way that I would define it though. Still, they are progressive relative to their church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see the value for those in the RCC to stay inside and work to change it from within. I don&#8217;t think those people are progressive in the way that I would define it though. Still, they are progressive relative to their church.</p>
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